So social media specifically has it out for Fred? I think his matches tend to be the same very often. Poor ability on the ball and fails to create, the most other aspects he does them very well.
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Despite of being regular in Brazil now and benching Fabinho, there is no difference between Fred in Brazil and United, what he does good at for the team is just not appreciated enough in United. I bet you seen people in social media criticised and questioned why Fred who can bench Fabinho is playing but not VDB who couldn’t cement regular spot over De Roon and Koopmeiners.
I'm happy he's doing well for Brazil. One of my favourite players. I like that he's doing well because I think if we sell Pogba we can get a DM to partner Fred and Bruno and imo that midfield is effective enough to compete for the league
There is a lot of difference. This is the first time in years that he's starting regularly for them. He has taken it up a notch for them.
Can't really compare the Copa America and PL but he's been one of the standouts and I'm very happy for him.
He is playing next to Casemiro or Fabinho. That's a very holding midfield where he has the task to be more dynamic/adventurous. This is very different as to the pivots he usually plays in at United (Pogba or McTominay).
Fred was so "underappreciated" at United that the caf was speaking of him as better than Kante, until it became painfully obvious that he's nowhere near Kante. Fred isn't some underappreciated guy, everybody knows what he does, but people can also see what he doesn't and how it harms the team in our current set-up. There is really no need to re-write history.
I am a fan of VDB but know he hasnt been anywhere near good enough and never will be in certain roles. Koopmeiners made 0 minutes and de Roon starts for Atlanta, which is pretty much United's level I'd say, not sure what your point is.
How can you say lot of difference when you are not even watching the Brazil game. I watched them and I know on the possession transition, Fred is aligned with Casemiro as midfield two and sometimes cover the left area if needed. During defensive transition, he shifted bit on the left to help the left back which he tends to do at United helping Shaw while in Brazil this allows Neymar stays up front.
High energy, brilliant in pressing, cover lot of ground, mobile, and likes to play progressive. He plays in Brazil and United because he offers those. If it wasn’t because this season performance at United, he wouldn’t be getting the call in Brazil to compete in copa america and World Cup qualify. players perform, they will be called to join Brazil national team. It’s not rocket science, if Fred doesn;t perform in the club then he won’t be called to join in the first place like in 2019.
I have, and if you honestly think playing with Casemiro/Fabinho is similar to playing with Pogba/Scott, there is no point really. No one is saying he has been awful but there's a reason why most of the caf want us to sign another midfielder.
I hope he'll be awesome coming season either way.
They use him similarly to Ramires just on the other side if I'm not mistaken. It is rather baffling how people can completely miss what he contributes, especially his ball winning ability and stamina. Is it such a bad thing to be a poor man's Kante? I don't think it is. Underrated in his ability to pass between the lines as well but too often there were no outlets because of the way we set up. Where he struggles is when he's asked to be the deep lying playmaker that is constantly taking mental pictures before the ball is received and knows where the ball needs to go before he receives it. Just not his game.
When Fred plays next to McTominay, his role and dynamism are pretty much the same way as how he plays at Brazil now. Just because McTominay sucks at holding midfield, it doesn't mean Fred plays differently. He still works his socks off, applies high press, covers lot of ground, and plays lot of progressive passes. The revisionism based on his NT performances is not weird, he just wasn't appreciated enough at United.
The difference is, when he were to play with McTominay he has to bring more than he does. We are still very weak defensively when they play, and they don't create anything. His progressive passes u state, are very much overstated. How often does it happen that Fred wins a ball, just to lose it back again. McTominay is not a holding midfielder, exactly my point.
He needs to transfer that form to next season and we need to replace McT
That doesn’t change the fact that what he brings/shows in Brazil NT right now is equal to what he brings/shows at United normally. He shows the same strengths, weaknesses, and individual ability that he offers in both Brazil and United.
Even if it was equal, it doesnt really matter that much. We play in a different set up and will never play someone like Casemiro/Fabinho next to him. Short-term, he'd be playing next to Pogba. Even if he brings the same, we would get overran badly.
Why not? While they aren't exactly the type of player that many people think should be bought into the team, they are closer than anybody we currently have. Aren't Fred's performance for Brazil just strengthening the argument that his strengths would become more pronounced with that right partner, rather than basically trying to do the job of two men as he currently does?
It can be a bit inconsistent at times but to me I tend to find its when he uses his right. I think in Fred’s mind he thinks his right foot is better than it actually is. I love that he is reasonably two footed but sometimes I’m watching him and he has the oppertunity to play it on his left but he goes with the right and it malfunctions
I equally love this and kind of wish he would stop it at the same time.
Yeah I think we will have to disagree here. Obviously his first touch is not Luke Shaw level but is still very decent. Some of the odd heavy touch caused mainly by his relentless pressing is okay to me because similarly to AWB his acceleration over the first couple of meters is so good to recover in these situations, and really don't remember him being in much trouble bar few occasions but yeah it's caf so out of favour player makes a mistake people highlight it to no end. I think people would be surprised to see Declan Rice handling the ball week in week out. Compared to him Fred is Messi, not even mentioning Scott but yeah defensive midfielders work hard and sometimes have heavy touch.
But yeah my point was that some errors he makes are more of a result from a bit of carelessness in passing rather than poor ball control.
For Brazil it seems like he's basically playing how he does for us but without the inevitable sloppy pass or touch or being out muscled. Is that due to the pace of the tournament?
What position is he playing for Brazil and in what formation?
Just read back a few posts
Pace of the tournament and obviously a solid partner in beside him. He’s doing too much at United and falling flat in certain aspects. If we could streamline his duties and keep him a bit fresher I reckon he’s an awesome option to have. Especially if we need to keep feeding it to Bruno through the middle.
Fred and Locatelli would be a nice midfield.
Just need another tackler in there and more composure on the ball under pressure.
He could do well with Rice. Moaners would say too negative. But the front four + fullbacks could provide enough creativity.
Still, Rice for 80+ mil is just not realistic for us.
I would prefer a midfield as technical and intelligent as Scholes and Carrick, but for this we would need to buy a DM + another quality midfielder.
So the alternative would be to have a solid and structured hardworking midfield.
Still, Rice for 80+ mil is just not realistic for us.
I would prefer a midfield as technical and intelligent as Scholes and Carrick, but for this we would need to buy a DM + another quality midfielder.
So the alternative would be to have a solid and structured hardworking midfield.
yep he's a fantastic ball winner, hard worker which every top team needs and decent passer but not exactly DLP which some people want him to be. He played in a double pivot in Shakhtar but that's a different level and his best qualities wouldn't be used fully if he just sat deep as his passing range is a bit limited too. Certainly would help to have player like that next to him, shame Pogba's discipline is not always good enough for that role as he would be a perfect player there. TOP DLPs are pretty rare so will be interesting for whom Ole goes. Phillips or Tielemans would be both great additions for that role but really hard to get.
Priority now should be a CB but then another CM of this kind is also a must because watching hopeless McTominay getting so many games there is painful to watch and it is so risky to rely on Fred's fitness too, it's one injury away from a catastrophe.
Fred was a top performer for a large part of last season. Was one of the first names on the team sheet for me ahead of Pogba and Mctominay. I think he was a victim of being run into the ground like Rashford and Bruno.
We really need another cm this window, Matic is past it and Ole doesn't trust Pogba or VDB there which will lead to Fred being overplayed again next season. The result will be a dip in form in the 2nd half of the season once again.
We really need another cm this window, Matic is past it and Ole doesn't trust Pogba or VDB there which will lead to Fred being overplayed again next season. The result will be a dip in form in the 2nd half of the season once again.
Because Pogba and Bruno have more star quality is the easy answer. I think every manager would rather try to find a solution to make Pogba and Bruno work than sacrifice one of them so that Fred can excel. Fred in his ideal set-up hasn't exactly proven to be world class despite his good tournament so far, I think that's why.
Pogba has worked with Kante in pivots multiple times in a 4231. Never lost a match. Just because Fred can't do it, doesnt mean it's impossible. Matic did it very well during the restart last season actually.
They literally threw away the last match they played together against a very average Swiss team?
Star quality means zilch when you’re getting overran
Pogba had Kante and Matuidi in 4231. Not just Kante himself. The restart we played against lesser teams.
In this Euro, Pogba didn't play in 4231. Did Kante stop the Swtiz's 3rd goal after Pogba lost the ball. No.
They did, during penalties obviously (so guess they got overran during penalties) but yeah. It's not really like they got overran but yeah fair enough I guess?
I dont get your argument, are you truly trying to single out one goal?
And with Fred, whether we play lesser teams or MK Dons it doesnt work.
There have been enough matches where Lemar, Griezmann/Dembele, Mbappe, Giroud all started and Pogba and just Kante played in a pivot. It is very easy to retreive. Go to Lemar's starts basically for the French NT.
Sorry, I’m all Pogba’d out.
Been over it more than a few times now. If you think star quality is what wins stuff then so be it.
Been over it more than a few times now. If you think star quality is what wins stuff then so be it.
The arguments were Pogba doesn't play 4231 in this Euro. When he played 4231, he had Kante and Matuidi.
There have been matches where we won with Fred and Pogba.
It makes no different anyway to the argument that Fred in Brazil offers the same thing as at United. It's not his fault if Pogba can't play in double pivot.
Only if you want to start playing McTominay on the wing. That's the equivalent of how Kante and Pogba play together, as they always have a third midfielder in there.
When Pogba starts for France they have only used two midfielders in 4 of the last 29 matches. The opposition in those matches were all outside the top 50 ranked nations, with two of them being outside the top 100. That means in the other 25 matches (and in EVERY match they've played decent opposition) they always have a third midfielder with them, either in the midfield or nominally named out wide but obviously helping out the midfield a lot. It's obviously significantly different than us playing the likes of Rashford, Greenwood and now Sancho, all of whom are attacking forwards who don't do much defensively or help the midfield control the game (hopefully Sancho will be an improvement in the latter regard though).
It's worth noting that during that same period of time there were 16 matches that Pogba didn't start (mostly due to injury). France were much more likely to only use two midfielders in these matches, with 9 matches.
When Pogba starts = 86% of the time they had a third midfielder.
When Pogba does not start = 43% of the time they had a third midfielder.
It's not a perfect comparison as a couple of those matches without him were played with three central defenders and two wingbacks which obviously changes things a fair bit. But they are still much more likely to play two midfielders and two attacking wingers (ie. the same way we play) when Pogba doesn't play compared to when he does. So why do we expect our midfielders to be able to partner Pogba by themselves in the faster and better quality league?
As for the matches after the restart, every team we faced was in poor form and yet we still only played well in the first three matches. After that we just stumbled along and managed to beat most teams with individual quality, with regular complaints in here about our midfield not actually doing their job.
Yes, thanks to this answer, needed to be said.
Yep it's a slower pace and less physical than the Premier league. Also helps Brazil are just plain better than everyone else.
We need to replace both of them in fairness as they are both holding each other back and are not a good combination in a midfield 2.
The hope should be to sign a top DM who would allow us to get Pogba and Fernandes into the same midfield most games and have Fred and McTominay as rotation options to come in and play alongside a proper DM. They are both good but limited players who can be very effective when used correctly, United just haven't been doing it.
Nice post.
He's performing the same role for Brazil as he does at united. He's doing all of Neymars defensive work + covering midfield at the same time, that's exactly why Brazil love him so much, and why he is invaluable to us as well.
People just don't seem to respect the effort and work he does because he has a few loose touches or passes in 90 minutes.
I think this is a fair point. Although I don’t think it should mean that we need to get rid of both players.
both have their uses, and are good players. They don’t really compliment each other, but having saying said that they are often both there for our best results. It’s an area we can seriously improve on with one midfield signing.
Matic in his prime before he lost his legs and decided to play as an additional left back would make an excellent pairing with either of these two.
And players get past him too easily, often because he's so lightweight and loses his balance or he mistimes a tackle. If that wasnt the case he'd be a good DM but it is the case.
Then you have the lack of composure at vital times and having bad touches and giving the ball away in our own final third which is also suicidal for a DM
Basically he has issues with everything you'd want from a DM other than effort.
Yes obviously his stature means he loses a lot of 1v1 duels, but at the same time his size allows him to buzz around the pitch and intercept in ways bigger players can't there's always a trade off.
He is actually usually pretty good in tight spaces too, 9/10 he controls the ball fine but he has the odd brain fart which stands out more than the good ones.
Me either mate, with the right partner that compliments them, both are capable of playing much better than they have been in my opinion.
I dont think its as simple as that.
There are bigger players who intercept more than him. Most arent as quick as him though.
And its more like when he has loads of time and space he has fine control and can pick out a nice pass if he's actually looking to play one rather than just keeping the ball by going left and right. Sometimes he plays a nice ball into the attack. But when he's under pressure from other midfielders quickly thats where his touch tends to be loose or play a poor pass giving the ball away. Sometimes he will have a loss of concentration when playing an easy pass higher up the pitch but thats less of an issue even if it is frustrating, than if he plays a pass that is cut out 40 yards from our goal and the opponents can counter us
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here?
Yes he's not a robot and everybody makes mistakes. I think it's quite clear though the tempo and energy he brings to the team is far more important than the odd sloppy mistake.
When was the last time he made an error which cost us a goal? I can only think of the Liverpool 3rd goal where it was a whole team calamity.
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