17
This is it for me, Fred has a ceiling and there are others who have higher. Give me someone who gives me the top of his ceiling rather than below it. Fred's job is to stop us from losing, those who ceiling is higher is to win it. Currently that's Bruno only.....
It pretty telling that he actually made some of our best chances, with his shooting and passing. He gets underrated in his passing usually but you're right, he's there to break up play and put balls into our attacking players, which he did well again today, it's not his fault that they were all shit.
ole’s been telling him to do that for ages now. It’s about time he listened!The moment between him and Ole after he took a shot with his right
Every player bar DDG, James, Shaw, Lindelof and slab head were terrible.
That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but I have the exact opposite view of his game today. And I know I’m not alone, because motd literally chose him to be the focus of their praise today with both pundits talking about his crisp forward passing.
I'd say he's been playing at this level for probably 18 months or so but I'm glad he's changing opinions.
Kante is much better defensively than Fred is. Fred is more rounded. But I'd rather have someone who is excellent at 1 side of the game and average at another, than someone who is average to a bit above average in most things. Basically if we had Kante instead of Fred, playing Pogba behind Bruno would never be an issue due to Kante's defensive ability. But with Fred, he's not enough defensively. There's no midfielder out there who could provide us with both the defensive ability and the creative ability that can adequately partner Fred for it to be a good partnership. Fred will always look like he should be replaced due to him being only decent at best with his passing/touch/vision, and only decent at best defensively at holding the midfield. His main quality is his pressing.
Not sure that we can look at one player in isolation tbh in a team game that's so reliant on others to contribute. Fred is not the answer and there is better out there, but he's not solely the problem either. Seen Harry come in, now he's not the answer either. We'll probably see Pogs and Martial leave this summer, and they weren't the answer. Signing players aren't the answer if the way we play, no clear system or pattern of play isn't in place either. We are gonna have the same discussion about whoever comes in next.
Our "system" or pattern of play is fine. No, it's not on par with Klopp or Pep. It is what it is. They are the 2 best coaches in the world, having them is a big boost. Since we don't have them, every manager has their own pros and cons. Just because someone like Nagelsmann is a good coach doesn't mean he'd be a top manager at United (though with him specifically I do think he can be a top manager at a top club). Some are too obsessed with their purist systems and never get past the final hurdle because of it. With Ole as our manager, we have more ownice on individual moments to be decisive. Which is fine. But regardless of manager, a midfield of Fred and McTominay won't provide enough attacking ball progression, passing range or creativity. Pogba can. But then Pogba leaves the midfield unbalanced with what we have since neither Fred or McTominay are good enough defensively on their own. So what they are, are 2 solid box to box players without excelling at anything in particular. They both need the other to be better both on the ball and defensively... so with that... what's the point? Pogba needs his partner to be good enough defensively. On the ball, creatively, we're fine if we use Pogba and Bruno in a midfield 3. So answer is get a quality defensive mid.
No issue with Ole but my argument is we should have best manager but that's another argument. I like Pogs but how long have we been having this argument? Bruno delivers world class performances despite playing with these players yet Pogs has struggled since he's been here. I'm not saying that they are the answer but last season, they significantly contributed to the success and pretty much played in most of the winning games against the top clubs without Pogs. The difference is we had strikers that were scoring goals with the same creativity from Midfield. If Greenwood and Martial had 20 PL goals between them, how much closer to City would we be.
We always swerve one way or the other too much though. One year we have a good defensive record but not enough goals. Next year a solid goal record but too many conceded. It's a lack of balance. And yes, Pogba isn't Bruno, but he's a quality player who would unlock a lot for us if we got the best out of him. It doesn't need to be Pogba, but whoever it is, our deeper midfield pair needs both better creativity/ball progression, as well as better defensive positioning and holding ability. Fred and McTominay are decent all rounders. They should be squad players. They aren't good enough to be starters as we significantly lack in every important aspect of midfielding when they are on the pitch together. You can't have your 2 center mids only job to he defensive break up play players.
Yup, think that's fair, but don't really agree 100%.
I do like Fred, don't get me wrong! I see him and McTominay as starters next season with Pogba leaving and the midfield being sorted out in 2022. In fact if I could pick I'd prioritize Sancho and a CB more than anything. Eventually both him and McTominay will need replacing in the starting 11 though, as neither provide enough defensive solidity individually and as a pair don't provide enough on the ball ability and creativity as a pair. Fred is a good short passer but his long passing is non existent, and as his touch is a bit sloppy, it becomes an issue because we can't open up the pitch with our midfielders, we can't spread the ball to the wings effectively, and we're susceptible to losing the ball under a press. Pogba next to Fred would leave us light defensively, so just replacing Fred with a true DM like Kante or Ndidi would give us enough in there for Pogba being part of the 2 to work well. Think back to Scholes and Carrick. They don't have to be that level, but it was a well balanced midfield where there was enough security and positioning in midfield where we rarely felt unbalanced there, and of course both had incredible passing ranges and vision to push the ball up to the attackers quickly and effectively. Hard to get a quality holding mid with the passing range and vision, so realistically a top defensive mid with a quality all round central midfielder who has that vision/ability would work (Pogba if he stayed fit).
That's pretty comprehensive. I get it but when I look at that Liverpool side midfield, if any came up for sale pretty much most of the big teams wouldn't be interested yet this is the engine room of two CL finals and PL winners. All good players but World class? Not saying Fred and or Scott is the answer but for some fans the grass is always greener and players from teams whose expectations are not to go down or a run of games in the cup is a good season. So desperate to sign a CB, we pay 80m when our ex player to looks better in a Leicester shirt than he does in a Utd one. The scales are not even and Pogs who should on paper be the answer, has proven that he is not the difference and will probably leave in the summer.
Debatable. France have Kante and Pogba, play international games which are normally slower tempo and weaker opposition than you face in the PL, and they still generally play a hard-working central midfielder on the wing to compensate.
Liverpools a more unique situation where they had their attacking width and creativity come from their wing backs for a couple of years. Their level has dropped down and they're struggling now, with their lack of creativity in midfield coming to the fore. Can't rely on having a player like TAA at right back, and I'm more judging it off of what we have that I feel is good enough already. I have no issues with Wan Bissaka and Shaw, or Rashford and Bruno, and Maguire I feel is a top player too. So we get players to compliment them as a group overall. Makes more sense to get players that suit them, rather than replace others so we can go with McTominay and Fred in the middle who are a lower level IMO.
Kante has been and is a better player than Fred. He is a very good when we do not have the ball. His problem is what to do when we have the ball. His movement off the ball is not good enough.
Kante isn’t better on the ball to me. He’s no better than ‘alright’ on the ball, and Fred is certainly no worse than alright on it. Fred can skip past a man and has good feet too. Neither score goals. Both win the ball at a freakishly high rate. Only one has done it in title winning sides though, which is what separates them as far as the narrative os concerned I feel.
That’s a stretch at the moment.
I’m loathe to use stats typically, but I suspect they were similar. Fred’s team has typically not been praised for their seasons, so it’s hard for individuals to be celebrated much. Kanté has considerable strengths, but he isn’t great at everything. I don’t think he’s better at what he’s good at than Fred is at the same thing. Man for man, I don’t think Kanté is better personally. They are practically the same player, but with very different CVs which is the main differentiation I think. As an individual, and without the context of their teams and achievements, Kanté is no better. Fred has had huge games against top opposition, and if in the context of a title winning side the story would be different.
So if we take Kante’s 16/17 season he had the following stats:
Exactly, what use is it having someone like fred popping up into good attacking positions when he doesn't have the quality to score or assist. Chelsea were very happy to see him shooting from 30 yards
This is single most important reason why Pogba looks better in international games. I've seen him play alongside Tolisso and Rabiot and guess what, Pogba looked exactly as good as when paired with Kante. Plus, whenever I see Paul play for France he doesn't look anything special - good midfielder, but it's not really that difficult to look good in that France team who looks head and shoulders above 90% of opponents they face.
He plays in conservative two man midfield, what do you expect him to do off the ball?
Kante was shocking again, the amount of times he lost the ball, he would be crucified on Redcafe, he literally brings nothing going forward, Fred is much crispier passer with better vision while doing the defensive work on his own for us, very similar numbers with Kante. Indefinitely better than McT both defensively and last game even going forward. Stats don´t tell the whole story but if you can´t get into the game and have half the passes because you are immobile and just can´t take responsibility like McT, some fans might not see many mistakes because you are a simple player, Fred on the other hand was all over the pitch trying to make things happen. Hell he was even better than Fernandes who showed nothing but losing the ball yet Fred is criticised because he misplaced few passes trying to create on behalf ofother players who are in the squad for that..
This aged well
