Full backs who can actually defend

NJ1979 said:
How would you define world class? Neville was amongst the top 5-10 (arguably higher) players in his postion worldwide for the vast majority of his career, would that not define him as world class?
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If you ignore the 'world class' term and just try and understand it from his point of view, he's simply saying that there's been no other defenders that were consistently excellent in attack and defence which isn't an unfair comment. Cole was getting there but never did, Evra's never been an excellent defender, Sagna's just a step below...the only one close is Neville. Neville was actually coming into his prime before that ankle break after he'd really started to improve his attacking game, enjoying the space Ronaldo created for him, but it was only really that one season where his attacking output came close to being excellent. Just look at the fullbacks in the PFA team of the year since Irwin was last in:

Neville
Gary Kelly
Harte
Sylvinho
Carr
Finnan
Bridge
Lauren
Cole
Chimbonda (!)
Evra
Clichy
Sagna
Johnson
Ivanovic
Walker
Baines

You've got two types of players there - solid or good going forward, average (at best) defending.

Adam-Utd said:
Dani alves.

He had Ronaldo in his back pocket more than once in the recent classicos.

The fact is though his main part in the team is to keep the width and act more as a winger than a fullback, but back in his sevilla days he was also very solid defensively too.
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Back in his Sevilla days he was the teams main creative outlet and drifted into midfield, wing and attacking positions...he clearly wasn't a defender.
 
:lol: to be fair Chimbonda was brilliant for Wigan that season. Seems a character too which always helps.
 
Brwned said:
If you ignore the 'world class' term and just try and understand it from his point of view, he's simply saying that there's been no other defenders that were consistently excellent in attack and defence which isn't an unfair comment. Cole was getting there but never did, Evra's never been an excellent defender, Sagna's just a step below...the only one close is Neville. Neville was actually coming into his prime before that ankle break after he'd really started to improve his attacking game, enjoying the space Ronaldo created for him, but it was only really that one season where his attacking output came close to being excellent. Just look at the fullbacks in the PFA team of the year since Irwin was last in:

Neville
Gary Kelly
Harte
Sylvinho
Carr
Finnan
Bridge
Lauren
Cole
Chimbonda (!)
Evra
Clichy
Sagna
Johnson
Ivanovic
Walker
Baines

You've got two types of players there - solid or good going forward, average (at best) defending.



Back in his Sevilla days he was the teams main creative outlet and drifted into midfield, wing and attacking positions...he clearly wasn't a defender.
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I just can't agree with this. It's not something we could ever come to some sort of agreement on given the nature of opinion here, but for me Evra was imperious in attack and defence at his best. He hardly put a foot wrong from about August 2006 to January 2010, when his form then dipped. At this point, he was almost as good as he could've been positionally for someone as attacking as he was, one of the best one on one defenders on the planet except when he came up against Lennon and really, really good in the air. It was baffling watching him winning aerial battles with Drogba/Jones/etc.

His one on one defending, in particular, was baffling. It looked like he should've always been beaten given that he sort of lunged a bit instead of standing his ground, but it pretty much always came off. Even against Messi he was marvellous in this aspect, even though Messi has always been the sort of player since breaking on the scene to shit out anyone with this defending style.

Definitely a fantastic defender for me, basically. It might not have been easy on the eye and might've looked a bit erratic at times, but it worked. Our successs during that period was founded on the strength of our defence (and Ronaldo obviously), and he was a huge part of that.
 
Brwned said:
If you ignore the 'world class' term and just try and understand it from his point of view, he's simply saying that there's been no other defenders that were consistently excellent in attack and defence which isn't an unfair comment. Cole was getting there but never did, Evra's never been an excellent defender, Sagna's just a step below...the only one close is Neville. Neville was actually coming into his prime before that ankle break after he'd really started to improve his attacking game, enjoying the space Ronaldo created for him, but it was only really that one season where his attacking output came close to being excellent. Just look at the fullbacks in the PFA team of the year since Irwin was last in:

Neville
Gary Kelly
Harte
Sylvinho
Carr
Finnan
Bridge
Lauren
Cole
Chimbonda (!)
Evra
Clichy
Sagna
Johnson
Ivanovic
Walker
Baines

You've got two types of players there - solid or good going forward, average (at best)
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Which of them were which, in your opinion?

I think backs, like central midfielders are often underrated, exactly because they are not specialists. And cannot afford to be. They are required to develop the full range of defensive skills, and likewise attacking skills, and will skillwise inevitably be compared with the specialists. So Neville and Fletch arent great attacking like Ronaldo and Zidane, and not faultless defensively like Nesta. Whereas any great trainer will say that a player like Keane and Dechamps is as vital and unique as a Cantona or Zidane.

Full backs need to be compared with full backs, and if you can't name ten backs that provide a better total off attack/defense than Sagna, Cole or Assou-ekotto for that matter, then you have before you a world class player in my view.

I should like to see peoples full top ten lists of full/wing backs, without dross like "1. Lahm and the rest is crap".
 
My top ten, highly subjective from what I've seen and guess:

Dani alvez, marcelo, zabaleta, cole, lahm, coentrao, evra, clichy, assou-ekotto, alba. No particular order.

Feel free to criticize, but not with offering replacements. Nonetheless - all of these are sound defensively, as full backs go.
 
Grande said:
My top ten, highly subjective from what I've seen and guess:

Dani alvez, marcelo, zabaleta, cole, lahm, coentrao, evra, clichy, assou-ekotto, alba. No particular order.

Feel free to criticize, but not with offering replacements. Nonetheless - all of these are sound defensively, as full backs go.
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I'm not offering replacements because there are none that would adequately replace them in the top tier. They all defend well enough but I wouldn't exactly call them sound defensively, which in fairness may be more down to attackers having more in their bags these days. Evra, Clichy and BAE all get caught out of position on a fairly regular basis and to be honest I don't even think Dani Alvez has ever been that good a full back, he's just always so high up the pitch that you never really notice him defensively. Of that list, I'd say Cole is probably still the best of the lot and he has been declining for the last couple of seasons.
 
Grande said:
Which of them were which, in your opinion?

I think backs, like central midfielders are often underrated, exactly because they are not specialists. And cannot afford to be. They are required to develop the full range of defensive skills, and likewise attacking skills, and will skillwise inevitably be compared with the specialists. So Neville and Fletch arent great attacking like Ronaldo and Zidane, and not faultless defensively like Nesta. Whereas any great trainer will say that a player like Keane and Dechamps is as vital and unique as a Cantona or Zidane.

Full backs need to be compared with full backs, and if you can't name ten backs that provide a better total off attack/defense than Sagna, Cole or Assou-ekotto for that matter, then you have before you a world class player in my view.

I should like to see peoples full top ten lists of full/wing backs, without dross like "1. Lahm and the rest is crap".
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That just leads onto another mundane 'what does world class really mean?" debate. Couldn't it just be that there's a lack of top players in a certain position at a certain time?

Just look at the 90s Serie A - Maldini, Thuram, Zanetti, Brehme, Cafu, Tassotti, Zambrotta, Angloma, Benarrivo, Toricelli, Pessotto, Favalli. The first 5 are genuinely top class fullbacks that in my view are better than anything we have today, the next 5 match anything we have today. They could all defend. Compare that to what you have from the 00s Premier League and Ramshock's point doesn't seem so ludicrous...
 
Grande said:
My top ten, highly subjective from what I've seen and guess:

Dani alvez, marcelo, zabaleta, cole, lahm, coentrao, evra, clichy, assou-ekotto, alba. No particular order.

Feel free to criticize, but not with offering replacements. Nonetheless - all of these are sound defensively, as full backs go.
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No they aren't (well some of them at least).

Like Brwned said, there has been a massive decline in the quality of fullback defending skills. Neville for us had excellent partnerships with Beckham and Ronaldo, yet he was a solid presence at the back. Irwin wasn't no slouch getting forward. Evra a few years ago was great at both ends (I only recall Lennon giving him trouble). Cole at spurts shows his capabilities for Chelsea and England.

To excuse their failings based on their so called "roles in the modern game" is a copout.
 
And it's not as if most full backs are great attacking anyways. They're still dependent on the winger/wide forward to open up space for them to provide an outlet into.
 
paceme said:
Hasn't Chielliani (maybe spelt that wrong....) Played a fair amount as a left back over the years? Ivanovic is solid, Lamn and Cole can do a job if his main duty is to defend,
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I don't think Chiellini is that good defensively, he's a better Left Back than Centre-Half even though he should be a Centre-Half.
 
Ivanovic is pretty good defensively when played at full back. A couple of seasons ago, Evra dominated the entire left flank on his own, both defensively and offensively. Ashley cole is another who's really good defensively.
 
Brwned said:
That just leads onto another mundane 'what does world class really mean?" debate. Couldn't it just be that there's a lack of top players in a certain position at a certain time?

Just look at the 90s Serie A - Maldini, Thuram, Zanetti, Brehme, Cafu, Tassotti, Zambrotta, Angloma, Benarrivo, Toricelli, Pessotto, Favalli. The first 5 are genuinely top class fullbacks that in my view are better than anything we have today, the next 5 match anything we have today. They could all defend. Compare that to what you have from the 00s Premier League and Ramshock's point doesn't seem so ludicrous...
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Your list nicely illustrate my point about specialists and generalists. At the time, and particularly in Italy, full backs were picked and trained as defensive specialists, in most italian teams even protected by team structure. They were specialists seldom expected to solve the tasks of attackers. Maldini was special, though no midfielder. Cafu really is the one standing out, both as a once in a century talent, and as a revolution in the use of full backs. He was (mostly) a great defender and a very good winger. What he seensationally provided, is what most fullbacks in top table teams are now expected to deliver.

The theory that one generation should yield twenty top class footballers in one position and the next only one, makes statistically little sense unless there is a systematic change involved. The only really relevant systematic change I can think of, is the well known change in roles of full backs, from one way specialists to two way generalists.
 
I can't agree at all - Zanetti, Brehme, Zambrotta, Benarrivo and Toricelli played their best games as wingbacks in a 5-man backline, and in Italy (much like Brazil) teams are reliant on their fullbacks to provide width as they often play very narrow formations. Only Maldini, Favalli and Tassotti were defensive fullbacks, the rest offered plenty going forward. I don't see Evra, Cole or Lahm offering anything more in attack (or defence) than Zanetti, Brehme or Benarrivo. And at most of the successful clubs you have two opposing specialists - Alves/Abidal, Evra/Brown(O'Shea), Cole/Ivanovic, Ramos(Arbeloa)/Marcelo etc. with one converted centre back and one converted winger. That looks to be changing now with teams just going with two converted wingers in Rafael/Evra, Alba/Alves etc.
 
From who i've seen:

Ivanovic - I still maintain he's one of the best in the league. Very underrated.
Zabaleta - Again under rated and offers alot going forward
Cole - Dropped a little from his peek but still very good.
Baines - Good at both ends of the pitch.
Lahm - Obvious choice is obvious
Sagna - Decent
Walker - Still rough around the edges but very good.
 
What are you people comparing to regarding someone being a good defender? Fullback vs center back? Well, full backs have to deal a lot more with 1v1 scenarios and they've not got any cover more them more often than not. A center back would rather let someone have the ball out on the wing rather than chase after him and leaving a gaping hole inside the box. So it's much much easier for a full back to look bad defensively than it is for a center back. Especially the ones that take part in attack.

For me Marcelo is clearly the best left back in the world. Only Dani Alves rivals him when it comes to attacking. Those two are by far the best attacking fullbacks.
Marcelo however doesn't have much help defending. On his side Ronaldo is the winger (which he isn't) and on the other side you've got Di Maria (who's a nice player to have in front of you if you're a full back). Given how good he is going forward you can't have him just sit back and watch. He'll have to take part. It's only natural that there'd be some space to enjoy if a counter-attack were to ensue.

Against Sevilla he was faced with a problem. Jesus Navas and Cicinho, both on a good day. People that watched the game might have noticed that he barely took part in attack until the final 10-15 minutes. That's because he had to deal with those two a lot and Navas is a very fast player. Not hard to see that he doesn't lack discipline when needed. He can do his defensive jobs if he has too.
For me he would be excellent in a wing back system with 3 center backs. If Brazil would play that way they could have him and Alves on each side. That's as good a width as you're gonna get.

Rafael has the potential to become a more balanced version of Dani Alves. He's good going forward and he wins the majority of balls when defending.

Generally I think there are many more players who are better at beating a defender than there was 20 years ago. You have a bunch of average-good players in the PL who can take part a defense on a good day. Maloney did it to us last season. Jarvis has done it. Stoke have won games because of Pennant and Etherington being on form. There's more of trying to beat the full back and getting close to the box rather than crossing the ball from way out by the sidelines.
 
If Ashley Cole came out for every game with an anchor tied around his feet and then spent the whole match standing in the centre circle trying to tackle players by shouting across the pitch at them, people would still say he was excellent at defending.
 
Brehme was great in defense - a little less going forward.

Lizarazu and Sagnol were a great pair on both wings, too - they were the reason why Lahm was loaned to Stuttgart early in his career.

I think Alaba is on his way to get world class somewhen - van Gaal already said that 3 years ago when he was 17. "He is a left full back - even if he does not think so" - it took another 2 years until he came into that position again.

Bayern looked for a full back for Lahm's other side for years - the good ones are so difficult to find. We have the same problem in the German national team whereever Lahm plays the other side is the problem. Now the problem at Bayern seems to be solved even twice - Alaba will really be great and Contento has showed that he could get at least into international category, too.
 
Maldini. All right, he's not really a fullback but he sure can play like one and defend like one. And Gary Neville, and Thuram. And they are all retired
 
noodlehair said:
If Ashley Cole came out for every game with an anchor tied around his feet and then spent the whole match standing in the centre circle trying to tackle players by shouting across the pitch at them, people would still say he was excellent at defending.
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That's the good old entrenched reputation for you.

Most full backs these days are more or less played as wingers. Hence the need for the defensive midfielder position.
 
Eboue27 said:
Sagna is so underrated it is silly. Since Evra and Cole have declined from their peak he has easily been the best fullback in the league. Ivanovic and Richards don't come close.
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Might have something to do with the fact that he's been injured for months and missed most of the football last season.
 
Eboue27 said:
Sagna is so underrated it is silly. Since Evra and Cole have declined from their peak he has easily been the best fullback in the league. Ivanovic and Richards don't come close.
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Yeah, he's out on his own. the fact that Ivanovic and Brown (basically CBs) have been two of the better RBs in the last 5 years shows how poor the standard in the PL is.
 
Siorac said:
Might have something to do with the fact that he's been injured for months and missed most of the football last season.
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He played 21 league matches last year and 33+ each of the previous three years. You'd think his strong record of consistent performances would make up for one injury plagued season (when he was still quite good when he played)
 
Theres not been a world class right back since Nev, but there are a few very good left backs, Evra and Cole were world class.
 
Cole, Sagna, Ivanovic, Arbeloa are a few who are better at defending than attacking.

Brwned said:
I can't agree at all - Zanetti, Brehme, Zambrotta, Benarrivo and Toricelli played their best games as wingbacks in a 5-man backline, and in Italy (much like Brazil) teams are reliant on their fullbacks to provide width as they often play very narrow formations. Only Maldini, Favalli and Tassotti were defensive fullbacks, the rest offered plenty going forward. I don't see Evra, Cole or Lahm offering anything more in attack (or defence) than Zanetti, Brehme or Benarrivo. And at most of the successful clubs you have two opposing specialists - Alves/Abidal, Evra/Brown(O'Shea), Cole/Ivanovic, Ramos(Arbeloa)/Marcelo etc. with one converted centre back and one converted winger. That looks to be changing now with teams just going with two converted wingers in Rafael/Evra, Alba/Alves etc.
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Agree with this. Going forward I don't think the quality of delivery or even finishing from Evra or Cole is anywhere near that of Brehme and Zanetti.

Theon said:
Theres not been a world class right back since Nev, but there are a few very good left backs, Evra and Cole were world class.
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I'm not sure Neville's ever been 'world class', great though he was for many years.
 
I'm a fan of the way Zabaleta and Sagna play RB. Solid enough defensively and not liabilities when attacking. I think balanced players who you cannot ignore in the attacking third but can't be singled out when defending make the best fullbacks, I'm not a huge fan of players that are too obviously converted wingers or centerbacks for this reason.

The Brazilian wingbacks are in a category of their own and IMO their quality is related to how soon they arrive in Europe and learn to defend properly.

It seems odd to me how few great fullbacks are out there at a time when fullbacks are so crucial in modern tactics.
 
Sagna offers far too little going forward which isn't good enough in the modern game, and he still makes a lot of mistakes for a 29 year old who should be in his prime.

Agree there hasn't been a world class right-back in our league since Neville in terms of being really solid and also being dangerous at the other end (with crosses in Neville's case).

I think the modern full-back really has to be forward thinking. I really like Marcelo at Real Madrid and Alves at Barcelona. You can expose them sure, but they offer such threat themselves that opposition wingers usually have to be tasked with tracking them rather than bombing forward. Both are tenacious enough as well - note Marcelo's constant hassling of Silva last night.

Evra could've been a great if he could cross. He's an abysmal crosser. His dribbling made up for it somewhat and his defending was always good (until recently).
 
Definitely Sagna and Zabaleta for me lately. Zabaleta is probably one of the most underrated players in the league. People see him as filler in City's squad because of the mass of star names but hes solid and maintains a high level. Unlike many full backs he can actually defend very well, and he does a job going forward too. Dont understand at all why City bought Maicon except for filler purposes - Zabaleta blows him out of the water.

Ivanovic is more of a defending type. Hes got some goals this season from open play but I think thats just an anomaly. Normally he gets his goals from set pieces and offers little going forward.
 
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