Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

Mr Pigeon

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I had an idea back before season 8 of a rough storyline I would’ve liked to see play out. Key high level points were:

dany/jon meet Cersei to persuade her to come north to fight the WW. Cersei says she will help them and sends Jaime with them ahead of her army (which is still mustering).

cersei betrays the northern alliance, leaving them to fight the WW alone. Even Jaime wasn’t aware of her plan, and he dies alongside a bunch of other characters fighting the WW (thus redemption arc complete). Maybe she tells Jaime her plan at the last minute and he chooses to side with the north, maybe he just doesn’t know until he realises she has betrayed him, either way works for me.

the northerners manage to beat the NK but at great cost. They lose most of their army and probably a second dragon.

cersei marches up with her army and destroys the remnants of the northern army. She takes Winterfell and the remaining forces flee north, ultimately beyond the wall.

at this point I am less certain in what happens, but basically I think the northerners are so utterly desperate that they have to resort to something really dire - akin to when the Children of the Forest created the WWs originally. Maybe they use Jon to create a new NK (Bran knows how to do this from his visions. Maybe they have to sacrifice the last dragon in some way shape or form, which tips Dany over the edge into madness. Alternately, she is preggers with Jon's child, but dies in childbirth after going mad because of Jon becoming the NK.

Either way, they manage to do something along those lines to create something powerful enough to destroy Cersei’s army and retake the south, with Jon/new NK using the last remnants of his humanity to agree to return north of the wall. A bittersweet ending.

only thing I am missing (I’m sure I had an idea for how to fit this in, but I’ve forgotten) was I really wanted to see Dany and Jon fall out, and end up fighting each other atop their respective dragons - this would’ve been a great mirror of the original “Dance of Dragons” from ages before.
Regarding Cersei's power in King's Landing - I was surprised that there wasn't a peasant revolt after she blew up the Sept. You've got this radicalised city and the pillar of their religion is blown up, yet nobody has an issue with it? Bollocks to that. But obviously as soon as Season 6 ended with Dany coming with three dragons, a massive army of Unsullied and an alliance with Dorne and the Iron Fleet you knew Cersei was already fecked so I bet it was a conscious effort to just enable Cheat Mode for Cersei to balance the scales. So we ended up with zero revolt in King's Landing, characters making dumb decisions to lose fights against Cersei and ultimately a story where things just happened because the writers needed them to happen.

And what was the payoff? Nothing. Cersei did feck all in Season 8. That character should have died under the conditions she was under in Season 7. But Cersei needs to be in the adverts. Blerg. Eat the Rich.

Instead of Cersei losing her kingdom, Dany becoming distracted by events up North, finally getting to King's Landing and, I dunno, finding out that the peasants have taken the city in the power vacuum that's been left there - Breaking the Wheel, as it were - and Dany being seen as just another invader which makes her flip her dish (assuming that has to happen), we got what we got.

Well, poop to that I say. Poop.
 
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Fahad Jawaid

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Jon gave up his role as Lord Commander and immediately surrendered the Northern crown. Why would it make more sense for him to suddenly take the Iron Throne?
Because it makes sense, he was built up as a hero to fight with night king and had the best story and redemption arc (coming back from the dead).

Its similar to how Harry Potter was built up to face Lord Voldermot as a hero and imagine how we would have felt, if he was killed by Neville Longbottom or something.
 

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Its already been posted at some point, im sure. But I really enjoy this video;

:lol: that started off quite funny & it would have been even funnier as it progressed - but for the fact that it just started boiling my blood again, having to relive all the mighty feck ups by D&D :mad:

To think they could have just added a season or so to finish the story off properly. Even if they wanted/needed/had to finish it off in 6 episodes - "Dany just kinda forgot" etc. FFS.
 

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Because it makes sense, he was built up as a hero to fight with night king and had the best story and redemption arc (coming back from the dead).

Its similar to how Harry Potter was built up to face Lord Voldermot as a hero and imagine how we would have felt, if he was killed by Neville Longbottom or something.
Also Bran said he cant be a Lord or have any titles like 2 episodes before, but then said 'why do you think im here' when offered being King. Im sure 'making sense' isnt the worst thing for D&D since they were 'cutting corners' :P


That should have been a heel turn (like he got into the mind of past figures, the WW's and manipulated things to make himself King rather than just whatever it was he did).
 

robinamicrowave

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Because it makes sense, he was built up as a hero to fight with night king and had the best story and redemption arc (coming back from the dead).

Its similar to how Harry Potter was built up to face Lord Voldermot as a hero and imagine how we would have felt, if he was killed by Neville Longbottom or something.
I grew up with the Harry Potter books and films and quite enjoy them (especially Prisoner of Azkaban) but they're ultimately stories for children. It's apples and oranges when compared to Game of Thrones. That's not to say they're better or worse than each other, they're just completely different types of stories and therefore have different intentions. Harry Potter is clearly defined as a good vs. evil kids' fantasy that's got easy redemption arcs and a happy ending. Game of Thrones doesn't really want to do that. If you put Jon on the throne at the end and make him into a traditional hero then you risk undermining the key message of the show - that power corrupts. If Jon rules at the end then it endorses the kind of thing the books and show wanted to deconstruct.
 

Mr Pigeon

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Also Bran said he cant be a Lord or have any titles like 2 episodes before, but then said 'why do you think im here' when offered being King. Im sure 'making sense' isnt the worst thing for D&D since they were 'cutting corners' :P


That should have been a heel turn (like he got into the mind of past figures, the WW's and manipulated things to make himself King rather than just whatever it was he did).
True to form though, they rushed through stuff under the promise of it being for something else - in this case rushing through GoT to get on to their next project - and then they did feck all.
 

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True to form though, they rushed through stuff under the promise of it being for something else - in this case rushing through GoT to get on to their next project - and then they did feck all.
The funniest part to come out of the shit show of the final season is the Hollywood white washing of DnD.

They were being handed the keys to the empire (strikes back) and they threw it all away by short changing the fans and series that had got them to where they are now.

I'm sure they regret massively the decison to rush to the end so they could start new projects. They'll likely never live down the legacy of GoT and that could prevent them getting a big gig again.
 

Fahad Jawaid

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I grew up with the Harry Potter books and films and quite enjoy them (especially Prisoner of Azkaban) but they're ultimately stories for children. It's apples and oranges when compared to Game of Thrones. That's not to say they're better or worse than each other, they're just completely different types of stories and therefore have different intentions. Harry Potter is clearly defined as a good vs. evil kids' fantasy that's got easy redemption arcs and a happy ending. Game of Thrones doesn't really want to do that. If you put Jon on the throne at the end and make him into a traditional hero then you risk undermining the key message of the show - that power corrupts. If Jon rules at the end then it endorses the kind of thing the books and show wanted to deconstruct.
Then why the hell did they made Bran king. They should not have made any king. The same Bran who could not be the Lord of Winterfell, but he can be the King of 6 kingdoms.

Furthermore, i believe whatever they wanted us to interpret, they did an awful job of showing it. For me they should have made Jon or Dany as one of these two made perfect sense as rulers.

All 7 seasons we were made to believe Jon and Dany were just and fair rulers who were different from all the others. If they became rulers they would break the wheel of power. Lastly John never wanted to be the king.
 

robinamicrowave

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Also Bran said he cant be a Lord or have any titles like 2 episodes before, but then said 'why do you think im here' when offered being King. Im sure 'making sense' isnt the worst thing for D&D since they were 'cutting corners' :P


That should have been a heel turn (like he got into the mind of past figures, the WW's and manipulated things to make himself King rather than just whatever it was he did).
Yeah, the Bran stuff is the major only conclusion I have a problem with. Not the fact that he's king, but more how it comes about. You could say I liked the idea but didn't like the execution. ;) He's not human and is therefore unable to be corrupted as man would be, so him being chosen as ruler makes sense. I also like the idea of his powers remaining ambiguous because it's the right sort of thing to leave open to interpretation -- I'm not sure there's any way to explain them and have it be satisfying. As far as I've managed to work out from things he both did and didn't say after becoming the Three-Eyed-Raven, he can see everything in the past and present ("I can see things that happened in the past. I can see things happening now all over the world"), but only fractions of the future ("It's all pieces, fragments"). That's enough for me to go away happy.

So, with that in mind, why did they have him say "Why do you think I came all this way?" I can explain it for myself by saying it's just Bran accepting his obligation, but unless you're like me and willing to put background work in (re-watching, reading scripts, etc.), it implies that he foresaw Dany's downfall and allowed it to happen. I'm not sure that was their intention at all because the mood of his coronation is generally optimistic. If they'd intended to make him more sinister they'd have gone for a different musical cue instead of a celebratory variation on the Stark theme. There's a scene they cut out of the series finale where Bran allows a bug to crawl over his hand and away to safety, mirroring Tyrion's story about his cousin remorselessly smashing beetles, and it perfectly explains the kind of king he'll be, but having him suggest that he somehow foresaw his coronation leaves a question mark where there just doesn't need to be one.

Also, I think, on a re-watch, I found the tonal shift between Dany's death and the election scene to be really jarring. Within the space of a single scene they went from completing the tragic downfall of a main character, condemning the corruption, pain, and impulses that took her to her grave, to suddenly welcoming a bright and lovely vision for the future. I didn't think the pacing in season 8 affected whether the plot made sense to me, but it definitely prevented the characters from being able to properly ruminate on things in the moment. After 'The Long Night' I'd have really appreciated some time to reflect with the characters about the major battle they'd just survived, but the next episode kinda forces you towards King's Landing in a hurry. The same thing happens in the last episode -- I wanted to feel upset about Dany's death for a second, not be whisked into the future before I was ready.

That's not to say I didn't feel anything. I still think the last 4/5 episodes were bold and risky and I get quite a lot of poignant and honest feelings out of them (and I appreciate that D&D are very much "show don't tell" storytellers). But still, even making the last season be eight episodes long would have made a nice difference for me in that regard. I don't think Dany's downfall would have been easier to stomach because genocide is genocide and there's no way to rationalise it no matter how much time you spend on it, but splitting 'The Last of the Starks' and 'The Iron Throne' into two episodes each would have just felt less like they were travelling at speed. The clues are all there in the dialogue and everything makes sense, but the lack of time we get to reflect on the story's major beats is what stopped it from being a genuinely brilliant experience.

I feel like there's a perception of me on here that I think the last season was perfect but, like, it wasn't, it was pretty good and I was happy with that. Pretty good is still pretty good.

When I talk about D&D "cutting corners" I meant less about the mysteries and theories they left unexplained and more about the storylines they hoovered up just before the end so they could narrow the focus of the story. Second-tier houses like the Freys, Martells & Tyrells were wiped out in single strokes; Essos, the Vale & the Iron Islands were left behind after season 6; characters had their stories combined; we were asked to presume that people were too frightened of Cersei to revolt after the Sept explosion etc. The fact D&D finished their story while George struggles to open his third act suggests such corner cutting was a necessary evil. Some of my satisfaction from the final season comes from being convinced that there was no way to end a story this big, with so many variables and possibilities. Unbelievably, it made sense to me and I thought it actually had something to say. I think that's something worth commending, so I do.
 

robinamicrowave

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Then why the hell did they made Bran king. They should not have made any king. The same Bran who could not be the Lord of Winterfell, but he can be the King of 6 kingdoms.

Furthermore, i believe whatever they wanted us to interpret, they did an awful job of showing it. For me they should have made Jon or Dany as one of these two made perfect sense as rulers.

All 7 seasons we were made to believe Jon and Dany were just and fair rulers who were different from all the others. If they became rulers they would break the wheel of power. Lastly John never wanted to be the king.
Have just made a post about my feelings regarding Bran becoming king. Hope it answers some of your questions!
 

Mr Pigeon

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The funniest part to come out of the shit show of the final season is the Hollywood white washing of DnD.

They were being handed the keys to the empire (strikes back) and they threw it all away by short changing the fans and series that had got them to where they are now.

I'm sure they regret massively the decison to rush to the end so they could start new projects. They'll likely never live down the legacy of GoT and that could prevent them getting a big gig again.
:lol: I hope when they were brought into the Disney meeting room before being told to bugger off they were given bread and salt.
 

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@robinamicrowave Youre putting more thought into this than the D&D. I am pretty confident of that. All the detail and justification you are putting in to excuse D&D, gets wiped when you hear their post show thoughts on why they did stuff. We know they spent around 3 years on the last season or two, but majority of it was execution of what they wrote, rather than a balance between writing a good story and executing it.

You also try a lot to 'say' that youre criticising them, but even in a post where youre trying to put your thoughts on what you didnt like, youre basically going into what was good about it the ending, and saying how it made sense to you / how it was impossible to end this story.

The funniest part to come out of the shit show of the final season is the Hollywood white washing of DnD.

They were being handed the keys to the empire (strikes back) and they threw it all away by short changing the fans and series that had got them to where they are now.

I'm sure they regret massively the decison to rush to the end so they could start new projects. They'll likely never live down the legacy of GoT and that could prevent them getting a big gig again.
Not only that, but then they did a cameo for another show based on GoT. Bleh.
 

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So reading the book, the Lannisters had green eyes.

What green eyed person did arya kill then to fulfill her prophecy, or did they forget that part?

Surely the plan should have been for her to kill Cersei
 

Sylar

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So reading the book, the Lannisters had green eyes.

What green eyed person did arya kill then to fulfill her prophecy, or did they forget that part?

Surely the plan should have been for her to kill Cersei
What colour did LF have?
 

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So reading the book, the Lannisters had green eyes.

What green eyed person did arya kill then to fulfill her prophecy, or did they forget that part?

Surely the plan should have been for her to kill Cersei
You're probably best bumping the book thread to ask specific book questions. People still are a bit sensitive to book spoilers in this thread. But a lot of appearances were changed as DnD didn't think the audience would believe people with purple eyes, despite all the dragons and magic, purple eyes would have been too much apparently.

Edit: that "prophecy" was show only and the importance of BLUE eyes really was retconned into it to subvert our expectations.
 

arnie_ni

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You're probably best bumping the book thread to ask specific book questions. People still are a bit sensitive to book spoilers in this thread. But a lot of appearances were changed as DnD didn't think the audience would believe people with purple eyes, despite all the dragons and magic, purple eyes would have been too much apparently.

Edit: that "prophecy" was show only and the importance of BLUE eyes really was retconned into it to subvert our expectations.
Ok so that last part makes it even worse.

If it was show only and they reiterated it in the final season, did they just forget it?

Didnt realise there was a book thread, thanks
 

b82REZ

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Ok so that last part makes it even worse.

If it was show only and they reiterated it in the final season, did they just forget it?

Didnt realise there was a book thread, thanks
To me it seemed like they thought its be a really cool moment to have that interaction in season 3, which is was to be fair. But then by the end they seemed to forget that scene and then forced it back into the story and also used it as a reason why it had apparently been telegraphed Arya would kill the NK.
 

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I thought that was one of the clever things they did. We knew Arya and the Priestess would meet again based on what she said.
Having them 'meet' again like with that line, was nicely done.
 

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I thought that was one of the clever things they did. We knew Arya and the Priestess would meet again based on what she said.
Having them 'meet' again like with that line, was nicely done.
Watch the two scenes. They clearly just used that line to make it seem like it had all been prophesied when it really hadn't.
 

Sylar

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Watch the two scenes. They clearly just used that line to make it seem like it had all been prophesied when it really hadn't.
I know, but my point is, I thought it was one of the better things they did to work with what they were going for.
 

arnie_ni

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Watch the two scenes. They clearly just used that line to make it seem like it had all been prophesied when it really hadn't.
They wouldnt have said that so early if they didnt.

GRRM could have told them thay was his end game
 

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They wouldnt have said that so early if they didnt.

GRRM could have told them thay was his end game
I suggest you go and watch those two scenes. The only thing missing from their reunion is Mel looking at the camera a wiggling her eyebrows when she says blue eyes.
 

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I suggest you go and watch those two scenes. The only thing missing from their reunion is Mel looking at the camera a wiggling her eyebrows when she says blue eyes.
So why even put it in there in the first place?

Even if it meant nothing, come the final season they could have made it mean everything and have arya kill both the NK and Cersei.

Also, if Arya didn't kill the NK, the 2 seasons she was training to be a faceless man would have been totally pointless. They had to have her kill someone of importance.

Maybe im giving them to much credit, but if they didnt intend for her to kill the NK when they originally put that in the show v.early on then i duno what to think about any of it. It had to be part pf her story arc
 

b82REZ

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So why even put it in there in the first place?

Even if it meant nothing, come the final season they could have made it mean everything and have arya kill both the NK and Cersei.

Also, if Arya didn't kill the NK, the 2 seasons she was training to be a faceless man would have been totally pointless. They had to have her kill someone of importance
Tbh we may be best continuing this over PM or in the book thread because I'll need to reference them to explain why her killing the NK in the show was simply for shock and awe.
 

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Tbh we may be best continuing this over PM or in the book thread because I'll need to reference them to explain why her killing the NK in the show was simply for shock and awe.
Pm me good sir, im only starting the books!

Ps i edited that post before you replied
 

Sylar

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Surely book talk is allowed here now that the show is over?

I think on the post show material, D&D said they planned it for 4 years? I kinda have a hard time believing that but who knows.
But 4 years goes after that initial scene... right?

I think Arya was done just cos they thought it was 'different'
 

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Surely book talk is allowed here now that the show is over?

I think on the post show material, D&D said they planned it for 4 years? I kinda have a hard time believing that but who knows.
But 4 years goes after that initial scene... right?

I think Arya was done just cos they thought it was 'different'
I know I'm banging the same drum over and over again but they confused "cause and effect" with "subverting expectations". Which is why I think they never really understood what the Red Wedding really was.
 

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Surely book talk is allowed here now that the show is over?
There’s probably a few posters here who are planning to read the books some day. Given how widely they diverge from the show in books 4 and 5, perhaps it’s best to keep it to the book thread?
 

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There’s probably a few posters here who are planning to read the books some day. Given how widely they diverge from the show in books 4 and 5, perhaps it’s best to keep it to the book thread?
Pretty significantly even before books 4 & 5 to be honest.
 

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Pretty significantly even before books 4 & 5 to be honest.
Yeah. Season one is almost a perfect adaptation of the first book. After that things start diverging.

Getting an urge now for another read.
 

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So why even put it in there in the first place?

Even if it meant nothing, come the final season they could have made it mean everything and have arya kill both the NK and Cersei.

Also, if Arya didn't kill the NK, the 2 seasons she was training to be a faceless man would have been totally pointless. They had to have her kill someone of importance.

Maybe im giving them to much credit, but if they didnt intend for her to kill the NK when they originally put that in the show v.early on then i duno what to think about any of it. It had to be part pf her story arc
They pretty much were totally pointless. She spent some time getting beat with a stick before developing super powers. They didn't seem to know what to do with any of that.
 

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I'm sure she was built to kill somebody. Cersei would have made sense given her characters motivation
 

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A year later, I still cannot really believe how they botched that 8th season :houllier:
I still think episodes 1 to 3 were fine. They could have killed a few more of during the battle with the NK but overall they were fine.

It was the last 3 that were bad.
 

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Is there a divisive ending that puts you off a show more than GoT? I can't think of it. Lost? Dexter? I guess because this show is so character driven that's what makes it harder to rewatch. So many people start to do so many things that are out of character simply because the writers need events to happen.