Aye that sounds fair enough. I've said it before but I hate those reaction videos of those folk in that bar because it was nothing but gasping faces at plot twists and big moment, which like you say seemed to become the focus of the show. I also think to this day D&D like The Red Wedding not because it was subverting the fantasy trope that the good guy always finds a way out of trouble but because it was "shocking". And after that they just kept hunting the next big "shock".For your pleasure!
I've never really been a big believer in the theory that D&D rushed the ending to go and make Star Wars. By all accounts, the decision to shorten seasons 7 & 8 was made in 2015, even before The Force Awakens was released - so way before any deal with Disney was even thought of, let alone announced. Plus, it took them nearly three years to make those thirteen episodes - I'm not sure they'd have put in so many hours if they were eager to cut the show loose and do other things. I'm also doubtful that the show "could have run for 12 or 13 seasons" like so many people, including GRRM, claim. At that stage, I think you do start to lose viewers and even lose creative control. I think from the beginning they aimed for a "seven books, seven seasons, seventy episodes" structure, and they aimed to stick to that.
But that doesn't necessarily mean they shouldn't have changed their plan. GRRM originally wanted the ASOIAF series to be a trilogy but, like all creative people, things changed for him as he went along. He might be in a muddle now as a result, but at the time it was absolutely the right decision for him to expand the series and use as much space as he could. At the end of season 6, I think the general consensus was that D&D had cut a few corners (like wiping out the Tyrells and Dorne, and not including certain plots from the books) but that they'd done so economically to keep things exciting. The best and most successful serialised shows tend to stop expanding after the halfway point - the story becomes more centrally focused and psychologically driven (as opposed to sociologically) - and so they understandably followed suit. If stories were like real life, they'd be very boring and they'd never end.
But I think season 7 (the weakest season by quite a way, imo) nearly buckles because it doesn't take the time to open up the final act of the story. It speeds up when it should briefly slow down. Remember how long it took for the first major plot explosion in season 1? It simmers away for 6/7 episodes and then bang, Ned's arrested and beheaded, Robb's off to war, and Daenerys has three dragons. Then think about how long it takes for things to happen in season 5 (the underrated start of act two) - it simmers away for 6/7 episodes and then bang, the White Walkers attack Hardhome, Stannis' campaign collapses, Cersei does her walk, and Jon's dead. But then think about season 7. It has just as much responsibility to open the final act, but it stuffs a number of major landmarks in right from the get go. Don't get me wrong, I still find it entertaining and exciting, but by the time our favourites are heading out beyond the Wall I'd not really had the logistics explained. Season 8 has similar issues, just nowhere near as severely (only in my view, I must stress).
Now, why did they do that? As I said, I don't subscribe to the theory that they rushed it to bugger off (Liam Cunningham was quoted at the time saying "Usually we do 10 episodes in 6 months, at the moment we're doing 6 episodes in 10 months"), but my own theory is that they either lost confidence, or interest, in working through the finer details. I think the overwhelmingly positive reaction to 'The Rains of Castamere' or 'The Watchers on the Wall', and especially 'Hardhome' and 'Battle of the Bastards', gave them the belief that they could put all their eggs in the spectacle basket and connect them with bullet points. Now, I thought the bullet points were compelling enough and added up to a conclusion that made sense, so I've never really had much of a problem. And if you break it down to minutes-per-season, season 8 is only 120 minutes (so, two episodes rather than four) shorter than seasons 1-6. But I think, either because they were sat too close or because nobody told them otherwise, I'm not sure they gave enough credit to how much story was actually left.
As we all know, there's a very delicate balance between plot and story, and the last two seasons really walk that line. Season 7 gets it really wrong in some places (even objectively, I don't think season 8 has anything as bad as Arya & Sansa's little feud), and you can't ignore the writing gears working hard in the background to force things into place for the final leg (I don't think season 8 has anything as "WTF?"as them going beyond the Wall). But I don't think it comes from them thinking "Ah feck it, let's toss this off and get out of here", because it took them a year past their personal schedule. As showrunners and writers I think they just knew they were brilliant at delivering the big moments (critics, super-fans, and all their awards told them they were), so they just relied on that. Even the show's weaker plotlines were rescued, and even enhanced, by outstanding climaxes, so I don't blame them for thinking "Ah, this is what people want!" when it came to the very end. I think they made the wrong choice but I'm not disappointed in them, or mad at them, for thinking that a condensed story was the way to go.
Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended
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I agree to an extent, but they were always good at creating a sense of tension or suspense before the big shocks, even after the Red Wedding. There's the build-up to Oberyn's death where he's gloating like an idiot and you're screaming at him to kill The Mountain; there's the tension between Stannis and Melisandre that ultimately leads to Shireen's death; there's the disagreements between Jon & the Night's Watch over the wildlings, which leads to him being stabbed up; Cersei blows up the sept at the end of a long sequence where we see what's about to happen long before it does... There aren't really any shocks in season 7 apart from Viserion being killed, and that's foreshadowed a wee bit by Qyburn's scorpion damaging Drogon a few episodes earlier. I'd even say that they built up to Dany's rampage well enough but I know others don't agree so I won't go too far into detail there.
The one I think they really got wrong was Euron killing Rhaegal. There's a video on YouTube where they re-edit the scene and re-arrange it so the order of events goes: Dany spots Euron's fleet from the air, she tries to get out of the way, Euron fires the bolt at Rhaegal anyway, and Dany realises there's nothing she can do to stop it. What the original scene forgets is the sense of dread or suspense before the moment of impact that made all their previous twists and shocks (both from the books and otherwise) work so damn well. With Rhaegal's death there's no sense of the grim inevitable creeping towards you, it just goes from 0 to 100 with some really dumb editing. I never liked the fanfic idea of having Rhaegal killed in King's Landing, and having that be the event that sends Dany over the edge, because that's not the point of her actions in 'The Bells' - it's not retaliation, it's a tragic war crime - but Rhaegal's death is the worst in the show because, as you say, they had the Burlington in mind when they wrote it.
DnD stopped consulting GRRM someway through season 4 I believe. It's no coincidence the quality nose dived after that season.
The issue was/is that adapting the last two books is a monumental task. They're far less action orientated and instead focus on the effects of war. Westeros is shown as a war torn country way after the war of the five Kings. The intrigue starts to come from places like Dorne and their (more specifically the Sand Snakes) reaction to Oberyn's death, the Merenese knot and FAegon. All of these plots were either cut or heavily sanitised by DnD.
Some of their decisions in season 7 and 8 were just too Hollywood and went against everything that had made the show popular. Beyond the Wall being the high point of that Hollywoodizing of the show.
They had no idea how to end the WW story so that was left on a damp squib, and IMO Cercei will not be the big baddy at the end of the books. If she's still alive there's no way she's still in any sort of power. DnD were more concerned about keeping actors happy and keeping popular characters alive by the end, which is the exact opposite reason the show became so popular.
The issue was/is that adapting the last two books is a monumental task. They're far less action orientated and instead focus on the effects of war. Westeros is shown as a war torn country way after the war of the five Kings. The intrigue starts to come from places like Dorne and their (more specifically the Sand Snakes) reaction to Oberyn's death, the Merenese knot and FAegon. All of these plots were either cut or heavily sanitised by DnD.
Some of their decisions in season 7 and 8 were just too Hollywood and went against everything that had made the show popular. Beyond the Wall being the high point of that Hollywoodizing of the show.
They had no idea how to end the WW story so that was left on a damp squib, and IMO Cercei will not be the big baddy at the end of the books. If she's still alive there's no way she's still in any sort of power. DnD were more concerned about keeping actors happy and keeping popular characters alive by the end, which is the exact opposite reason the show became so popular.
I must admit.
How do we control dragons? Use a magic horn.
How do we bring down the wall? Use a magic horn.
Was silly. I don't think the show would have benefited going that route.
The problem is that with the introduction of the White Walkers and dragons GRRM introduced 2 unsupportable forces into his world and with the introduction of the wall he added an immovable object. The reason he hasn't finished the books is because how do you resolve these issues without it looking silly.
How do we bring down the wall? Use a magic horn.
Was silly. I don't think the show would have benefited going that route.
The problem is that with the introduction of the White Walkers and dragons GRRM introduced 2 unsupportable forces into his world and with the introduction of the wall he added an immovable object. The reason he hasn't finished the books is because how do you resolve these issues without it looking silly.
They could have done:
-Euron travelled the world (as they did in the show anyway). He found a horn that can control a dragon which pisses off Dany. That could have been fun to see. I feel sorry for the actor who played Euron as he didnt have much to work with.
As for the wall, they had a really easy solution imo. I mean Bran was marked by the NK in that dream sequence in s6. Bran passed the wall (finally). That could have been the NKs 'in'. He touches it or something and it comes crashing down (could still have been an awesome visual).
When he was 'in' then Jon and the rest go (maybe with Dany who leads it) to get rid of the problem before it spreads further. And thats when they are caught off by the Javelin champion NK, and Dany has to retreat. Thus they look to get an alliance with Cersei?
I mean all of that could have been s7 But with reordering (of course would have been better with more episodes to flesh it out). And none of this Usain Bolt running from Gendry is needed. I think you still have cool scenes but more fleshing out.
Of course a lot of this is done based on what we already have and maybe easier than doing it from scratch.
Thats why I do think if this follows something like BSG and has a reboot of sorts in 25 years, you could easily have interest and do a better ending.
Thought I replied to this but clearly didnt. I know a lot of people will continue to make fun due to your long posts (and of course the spoiler element from s7) but I like your passion for this.IM with you in that I liked where things ended up. It was the journey though which annoyed me. At the time it happened, I really liked ep3 of s8. In fact, watching it as a standalone episode is still fantastic viewing.
For me, the biggest disappointment is how it ultimately just leads to not much. In fact the Bells is quite a watch too, but its the way Danys turn was executed that was annoying. I think it needed to happen but not how we got from ep3 to ep5. And ep6 was just a big disappointment. Dany is essentially the biggest villain of all time now and it lasts all of 10 minutes. There was no time to let it breath for me.
I do agree with lot of what you say though. Though not the bold.One of the thing Nights Watch struggled with was numbers. They were always wanting more numbers but only Stannis took them seriously hence him arriving (although it was after the Wall was defending on night one). So not sure how they could have defended all parts or even spared people to go and be scouts.
As for the Blackwater, Stannis was the one attacking not defending. Again, how can he go and have scouts placed around a city hes attacking in case somebody else comes? The wildfire was the big game changer initially, until Tywin came for the win.
People making fun is what it is. I've muted most of them since 2017 because I realise I can't actually make any posts anywhere else on the forum without them bringing up the timeline stuff. I made my own bed, but I would like to talk about other things sometimes, you know? I've always found it quite funny in a way, though, because the post that's always referenced (the "Let me guess at a timeline" one) was little more than an educated guess. It's why, if you go back and read it, you'll find parts of it to be completely wrong because all I had to go off were the trailer and press photos.
I had Jon going beyond the Wall straight from Winterfell!After 'The Spoils of War' came out and I found Freefolk for the first time, I got a bit cocky thinking I could drip feed leaks into the general chat, and yeah eventually I got caught out. But that "let me guess at a timeline" post was pieced together from the trailer and a photo of all the Stark children in which Arya was holding the dagger. From there my mind started whirring. Why's Arya holding that dagger? Who gave it to her? What's she going to do with it? Why's Jon beyond the Wall? What happens when he's gone from Winterfell? Who's in charge? If Littlefinger snuffs it, how does he get rumbled? etc. etc.
As for the rest of your post, I think I largely agree with the criticisms levelled at season 8 but I can't muster up the same level of disappointment. Not that I've tried, but you know. I thought it was down to a personal bias at first - that I pretended it was good just because I wanted it to be? - but I'm happy to admit that bits of season 7 are mediocre, and I thought The Rise of Skywalker was pretty crap despite Star Wars meaning a lot to me personally as well. I think, when all's said and done, season 8 was the moment when I realised I'd been watching the show differently to everyone else. And over time I've come to learn that that's fine.
As for my long posts, I often don't even realise how much I've typed. I just find myself going from one point to the next, going deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole, until five paragraphs have gone by. It's stunning, and a bit sad really, how much the show's came to mean to me. I think the night before the season 8 premiere was the most excited I'd been for anything ever in terms of TV/film? I was in a converted shed on holiday in Nottingham when 'A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms' leaked the night before it was supposed to go out, and I used the flimsiest broadband connection possible (being at the bottom of a garden and all) just to watch it.
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Probably one of the only TV serious where I properly miss the adventure and characters
Regardless to how rushed season 7 and 8 were (which I agree they were) I still loved it all
I binge watched all the seasons (7 at the time) within 2 weeks back in 2017 after friends consistently telling me how amazing It is, I finally gave in and Christ it was damn good
I watch it all again several weeks back this time with the Wife who has also insisted it wasn’t up her street, low and behold it became her thing and she was hooked!! And so was I again having been 3 years since I last watched it
Sadly though in my opinion when it ends you want the story to continue, we didn’t want the adventure to end
We’ll no doubt re watch again in a few years time
Regardless to how rushed season 7 and 8 were (which I agree they were) I still loved it all
I binge watched all the seasons (7 at the time) within 2 weeks back in 2017 after friends consistently telling me how amazing It is, I finally gave in and Christ it was damn good
I watch it all again several weeks back this time with the Wife who has also insisted it wasn’t up her street, low and behold it became her thing and she was hooked!! And so was I again having been 3 years since I last watched it
Sadly though in my opinion when it ends you want the story to continue, we didn’t want the adventure to end
We’ll no doubt re watch again in a few years time
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Option 1 - Follow the same idea with the Night King getting the dragon
Option 2 - Have it so when Bran is touched by the Night King and he passes the wall the magic protecting it is broken. This would need the Night King doing something swanky to bring it down.
I actually liked the idea of the Night King getting a Dragon, but the concept of using their best fighters to go North of the Wall to capture a wight was pretty stupid.
What we needed was to have the Dragons and walkers go directly against one another, we didn't really get that in the show, we had it briefly when all 3 flew North to rescue Jon and co but nothing at Winterfell. Along with that the dragon glass seemed to be largely redundant in the show, which was a little bizarre given how it was a pretty important part of Season 7. We didn't get anything like at Helms Deep where the defenders sprayed volley after volley of arrows at the undead. There are methods of doing it, I just think it was very badly thought out ultimately.
It'll probably be alright if the source material is finished.
Well they certainly have proven to be excellent at adapting and realizing fantastic novels. Stick to their strengths. Anyway it was an impossible challenge and I suppose they succeeded in completing the incomplete (otherwise we would have never seen an ending). Dreadful as it was.
Yeah I think they will do great at just adapting something if its finished and they are all in.
So did the valyrian steel swords. I mean they were just used to kill normal wights. No actual use against WW (after seeing Jon destroy one or two)
Except the one used to kill the NK?
I mean her one was basically put together the night or day before
The others seemed to have story from being handed down or melted down or whatever
You had several holders of the main swords who did nothing that a normal dragon glass dagger wouldn't do
I hate you people for reviving this thread again and opening up old wounds. 2020 could have been better if I had motivation to re-watch all of GoT.
Nah, the weapon she used was Littlefingers dagger which has been probably the most seen weapon in the show.
No it wasn't. It was the Catspaw dagger that the assassin used to try and kill Bran in season one. The same one she used to kill Littlefinger.
Ok fair and I'll concede that despite saying it was put together as a weapon for arya (but yeah that's same as the other one being melted so I'll give to that)
But still the other ones? How much use did they get? May have to watch that episode again but can't remember them coming into play
None of the others did no. They were largely irrelevant, but lets be honest, the entire Winterfell battle was largely irrelevant, I really fecking hated that episode. It had one awesome looking shot with the Dothraki charging in (which was dumb as shit, but at least the shot looked awesome and helped build the tension) but the rest of the episode was just terrible. Honestly everything about it pissed me off.
If you watch it as a one off with no context it's lovely to watch
Of course that's the issue
It doesn't take into consideration everything that happened before and well what will happen I guess which as a story it should
Don't know much about these Remembrance of Earth's Past books at all, except what I've read today after the news broke. Seems interesting enough. D&D showrunners with Alexander Woo. Rian Johnson, Brad Pitt and Rosamund Pike attached as producers. Bernadette Caulfield and the book's original author and translator also closely involved. Seems like a diverse and level-headed writers room with some reliable producers behind them. Won't be another GOT-level hit but could get a good cult following.
The Three Body trilogy is absolutely epic and I've been dreaming of an adaptation since I read them all a few years back.
Didn't expect I'd see one so soon, and while I'll never make my peace with D&D for how they ended GoT, I'm confident it'll be great with all the talent involved.
Let's just hope they don't get bored halfway through the series...
Didn't expect I'd see one so soon, and while I'll never make my peace with D&D for how they ended GoT, I'm confident it'll be great with all the talent involved.
Let's just hope they don't get bored halfway through the series...
Nah not halfway - just close to the end of the show so you wonder why you every invested so much time in it to begin with.The Three Body trilogy is absolutely epic and I've been dreaming of an adaptation since I read them all a few years back.
Didn't expect I'd see one so soon, and while I'll never make my peace with D&D for how they ended GoT, I'm confident it'll be great with all the talent involved.
Let's just hope they don't get bored halfway through the series...
Isn’t only the first book good? I thought it was quite interesting though there were parts of it I didn’t like. I stopped on the second book though, found it really garbage. Finally some series that I won’t know what will happen.The Three Body trilogy is absolutely epic and I've been dreaming of an adaptation since I read them all a few years back.
Didn't expect I'd see one so soon, and while I'll never make my peace with D&D for how they ended GoT, I'm confident it'll be great with all the talent involved.
Let's just hope they don't get bored halfway through the series...
I remember thinking the 2nd book was the best of the 3, though they all kind of bleed in to one now.
A quick glance at goodreads suggests that book 2 is the highest rated, while book 1 is the lowest.
Dunno. It went from excellent science-fiction to some random Chinese guy being chosen as the savior and all he was doing was chasing a girl that he saw in his dreams. I think I gave up at 20-30% of it.
Fair enough. I don't actually remember that at all... the books are very dense and there's a shit ton to take in.
I do wonder if the adaptation will retain the Chinese setting.
Should probably make a new thread at this point...
In memory of Olenna (Diana Rigg) who died today:
RIP, what a character she was in that show...
Also a woman who actually managed to marry James Bond.
Also a woman who actually managed to marry James Bond.
RIP queen of thornes. She was truly epic.
Gutted. She was one of the best characters in Game of Thrones for me.
Had one of the most badass mic drop exits in GoT. She'll be remembered forever because of it. Rest in Peace
I loved her final scene - she still owned it.
Love the way they used her to basically admit how shite the Sand Snakes were:
Her scenes epitomised the show at its best. Scheming and verbal sparring.
Was a great character with great dialogue. The actress was just superb at delivering the lines
And agreed about her exit. Her scenes with Tywin were brilliant just to see somebody spar with him and more than hold her own
And agreed about her exit. Her scenes with Tywin were brilliant just to see somebody spar with him and more than hold her own
https://ew.com/tv/game-of-thrones-o....com&utm_content=20200914&utm_campaign=664679
Looks like it could be a good read. I mean a few things we know like the dany actress being replaced
Maybe if they had the same feedback they got for their pilot episode for season 8 ....
Looks like it could be a good read. I mean a few things we know like the dany actress being replaced
Maybe if they had the same feedback they got for their pilot episode for season 8 ....
Horse boner scene
Jesus. Remember this was a phenom of a tv series? On course to go down as one of the GOATs?
Cant get over how awful season 7 and second half of season 8 were. Suppose the signs where there in season 5 onwards but the drop in writing quality.
My word. I was obessed with this show.
Cant get over how awful season 7 and second half of season 8 were. Suppose the signs where there in season 5 onwards but the drop in writing quality.
My word. I was obessed with this show.