German Football 20/21

do.ob

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People will give Schalke credit, because they kept it at 0:0 for close to an hour, but even if we forget that you don't get points for that it was a pathetic display. If it wasn't for their name you would assume that they were a brave amateur team. Parking 9 people inside their box, aborting every single (literally, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended the game with something like .1 xG) counter attack after the first pass, because they dropped so deep there were no support for miles, even if the clearance found its way to a team mate. The only thing they excelled at were stamping Dortmund's feet.
You could hear Baum micromanage even the most basic things from the sideline. Four touches in Dortmund's box, zero in the second half.
 

Acrobat7

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People will give Schalke credit, because they kept it at 0:0 for close to an hour, but even if we forget that you don't get points for that it was a pathetic display. If it wasn't for their name you would assume that they were a brave amateur team. Parking 9 people inside their box, aborting every single (literally, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended the game with something like .1 xG) counter attack after the first pass, because they dropped so deep there were no support for miles, even if the clearance found its way to a team mate. The only thing they excelled at were stamping Dortmund's feet.
You could hear Baum micromanage even the most basic things from the sideline. Four touches in Dortmund's box, zero in the second half.
So you’re saying it was a normal Schalke performance.
 

hasanejaz88

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Davies out for 6-8 weeks. We might not see him play again this year. I'm gutted, ankle injuries have such a nasty tendency to linger and reappear.
I just read an article earlier today that a reason why Davies wasn't being played as much this season was to reduce his workload after the intensive last season. At his age its more important to reduce workload in order to prevent injuries.

Sad to see he's had this injury but thankfully it isn't a long term injury.
 

do.ob

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So you’re saying it was a normal Schalke performance.
I think a "normal" Schalke performance would at least have seen them create some chaotic phases, that might have yielded some mistakes on Dortmund's part. But for the most part they just sat at the back and lost the ball within two touches. Even when they were trying to be aggressive Dortmund always kept the ball one or two steps ahead of their players. After going down they couldn't even foul anymore, the game could have gone on for another hour with them watching Dortmund lazily pass it around their box.


Going for the Tasmania challenge.
 

uamini

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Going for the Tasmania challenge.
Their next two games: Stuttgart at home, then an away game in Mainz...that could be a good opportunity to end that drought.
It's so weird that they started 2020 in 5th place. They have a flawed roster but I think they'll do better once they get some confidence back.
 

do.ob

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Their next two games: Stuttgart at home, then an away game in Mainz...that could be a good opportunity to end that drought.
It's so weird that they started 2020 in 5th place. They have a flawed roster but I think they'll do better once they get some confidence back.
They certainly can't do worse than 1 point and -17 GD ;)

I'm not sure where the confidence is supposed to come from when they have been in free fall for so long. On paper they probably aren't as bad as it seems right now, but neither are they a good enough team that you can be sure quality will prevail in the end (e.g. Dortmund in their horror season). They are neck deep in a vicious circle and I think at this point nothing but sheer luck for a few games in a row can bring back their mojo. Meanwhile they fall more and more behind with each game until that happens.

Their 5th place was a product of Harit playing a terrific half season, deciding a couple of games through sheer individual brilliance and Serdar stepping up with a couple of goals from midfield. Neither player has recorded a goal or assist in 2020. They had some problems with injuries, but arguably they played beyond their "real" level during that time.
 
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So Dortmund has finally played with a back four again, as Favre wanted to all the time. Will be interesting to see if he sticks to it against stronger opponents, or if he feels the need to go back to three CBs for stability. (Haven't heard any statements from the presser or interviews.)
 

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Musiala is the young English kid isn't he? How long before he becomes the new Sancho.....
 

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Musiala is the young English kid isn't he? How long before he becomes the new Sancho.....
Father Nigerian, mother German, lived in England for 8 years/half his life. Has played for both England and Germany in the youth national teams, can still decide which NT to play for.
 

hasanejaz88

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So Dortmund has finally played with a back four again, as Favre wanted to all the time. Will be interesting to see if he sticks to it against stronger opponents, or if he feels the need to go back to three CBs for stability. (Haven't heard any statements from the presser or interviews.)
My thought behind Favre playing the 3 at the back was always to accommodate Hakimi and Guerrero since both are much better offensively than defensively at full back, therefore they need 3 at the back to give them freedom to go forward without worrying too much about going back to defend.

With Hakimi gone and replaced by Meunier, who has more experience at full back than wing back, I would see more reason to move to a 4 man defense. Especially since with a 3 man formation, Dortmund lose a lot of width and depend on their wing backs to provide it. Meunier hasn't showed the same attacking quality as Hakimi did, therefore Dortmund just seem more stifled and restricted in attack with Meunier since he isn't a threat.

Atleast with 4 at the back players like Sancho can revert to their favored winger position and provide more of a threat from the right side.
 

Sir Tanley Daft

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My thought behind Favre playing the 3 at the back was always to accommodate Hakimi and Guerrero since both are much better offensively than defensively at full back, therefore they need 3 at the back to give them freedom to go forward without worrying too much about going back to defend.

With Hakimi gone and replaced by Meunier, who has more experience at full back than wing back, I would see more reason to move to a 4 man defense. Especially since with a 3 man formation, Dortmund lose a lot of width and depend on their wing backs to provide it. Meunier hasn't showed the same attacking quality as Hakimi did, therefore Dortmund just seem more stifled and restricted in attack with Meunier since he isn't a threat.

Atleast with 4 at the back players like Sancho can revert to their favored winger position and provide more of a threat from the right side.
I think the lack of a second reliable centre back is the main reason Favre is hesitant to go back to a back four. Someone who can complement Hummels' strengths. Akanji is decent but you always get the feeling he'll make a big mistake at some point, the same goes for Zagadou who is quite injury-prone as well. Personally, I don't see Piszczek as a centre back in a back four and neither Can who lacks pace and the positional discipline. I really believe someone in the mould of prime Subotic is the missing piece to this squad. A no-nonsense centre back, strong in the air and with decent pace to cover when playing a higher line which would also allow Dortmund to go back to a more active style of pressing. To be fair, I have no idea who that certain player could be or if such a player would be attainable with the current financial restrictions. In the meantime Favre will probably try to play the back four from now on and will ultimately fail when better opponents come along.
 
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Synco

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My thought behind Favre playing the 3 at the back was always to accommodate Hakimi and Guerrero since both are much better offensively than defensively at full back, therefore they need 3 at the back to give them freedom to go forward without worrying too much about going back to defend.

With Hakimi gone and replaced by Meunier, who has more experience at full back than wing back, I would see more reason to move to a 4 man defense. Especially since with a 3 man formation, Dortmund lose a lot of width and depend on their wing backs to provide it. Meunier hasn't showed the same attacking quality as Hakimi did, therefore Dortmund just seem more stifled and restricted in attack with Meunier since he isn't a threat.

Atleast with 4 at the back players like Sancho can revert to their favored winger position and provide more of a threat from the right side.
I think the lack of a second reliable centre back is the main reason Favre is hesitant to go back to a back four. Someone who can complement Hummels' strengths. Akanji is decent but you always get the feeling he'll make a big mistake at some point, the same goes for Zagadou who is quite injury-prone as well. Personally, I don't see Piszczek as a centre back in a back four and neither Can who lacks pace and the positional discipline. I really believe someone in the mould of prime Subotic is the missing piece to this squad. A no-nonsense centre back, strong in the air and with decent pace to cover when playing a higher line which would also allow Dortmund to go back to a more active style of pressing. To be fair, I have no idea who that certain player could be or if such a player would be attainable with the current financial restrictions. In the meantime Favre will probably try to play the back four from now on and will ultimately fail when better opponents come along.
I guess there were several issues that made the back three a necessary compromise, at least for a stability-first manager like Favre. You guys already mentioned the FBs and the mix at CB, and I'd add a lack of the high-end workrate necessary for compactness in parts of the team.

Getting Meunier was probably a conscious step to address that, and Favre has played a back four in preseason. But after some really bad games, he reverted to the 3-4-3 from the first competitive match on. I think Tanley's prediction at the end of his post isn't unrealistic, especially since the workrate issues are still present. But perhaps Favre may even switch between back four & three, depending on the opponent?
 

FootballHQ

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Ah right, might become another Aaron Hunt/Holtby then. ;)
 

bulby

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According to Kicker Klostermann, Laimer and Haidara will miss the game against United. Kampl, Adams and Mukiele are also questionable to play the game for Leipzig.
 

hasanejaz88

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According to Kicker Klostermann, Laimer and Haidara will miss the game against United. Kampl, Adams and Mukiele are also questionable to play the game for Leipzig.
Wonder who will play RB with Klostermann, Laimer, Mukiele and Adams all out. That's their entire possible RB roster.

@do.ob @Synco Was listening to the Athletic's Steilcast and they had a good conversation regarding Dortmund's next manager. Favre's contract will be out next summer and it doesn't seem Dortmund are eager to give him a new deal, and neither are the fans. Rose and Nageslmann would be likely names in the pot to be the next manager but I wonder whether both will see Dortmund more as a sideways step rather than a big step up.

They mentioned Dortmund II's manager Enrico Maasen and said he's doing well as their manager (they are currently top of their 4th division league) and might consider him to be the next manager. Any local news about how good he is and whether fans would welcome his appointment rather than a big name?
 

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Wonder who will play RB with Klostermann, Laimer, Mukiele and Adams all out. That's their entire possible RB roster.

@do.ob @Synco Was listening to the Athletic's Steilcast and they had a good conversation regarding Dortmund's next manager. Favre's contract will be out next summer and it doesn't seem Dortmund are eager to give him a new deal, and neither are the fans. Rose and Nageslmann would be likely names in the pot to be the next manager but I wonder whether both will see Dortmund more as a sideways step rather than a big step up.

They mentioned Dortmund II's manager Enrico Maasen and said he's doing well as their manager (they are currently top of their 4th division league) and might consider him to be the next manager. Any local news about how good he is and whether fans would welcome his appointment rather than a big name?
No idea, my grasp of BL matters is very limited. I'd be surprised if Nagelsmann joins, his next club might be one step above. Rose would probably be ideal (ability, style, career level), but I don't know how long he plans to stay at Gladbach.

I think (besides do.ob) @Sphaero @Swarm @Borussin may know more about your question.
 

do.ob

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Wonder who will play RB with Klostermann, Laimer, Mukiele and Adams all out. That's their entire possible RB roster.

@do.ob @Synco Was listening to the Athletic's Steilcast and they had a good conversation regarding Dortmund's next manager. Favre's contract will be out next summer and it doesn't seem Dortmund are eager to give him a new deal, and neither are the fans. Rose and Nageslmann would be likely names in the pot to be the next manager but I wonder whether both will see Dortmund more as a sideways step rather than a big step up.

They mentioned Dortmund II's manager Enrico Maasen and said he's doing well as their manager (they are currently top of their 4th division league) and might consider him to be the next manager. Any local news about how good he is and whether fans would welcome his appointment rather than a big name?
I don't think Rose has done enough yet not to consider Dortmund a step upwards. He won't be able to mount a title challenge (or feel the pressure to do so) at Gladbach. But I have a hard time seeing Eberl allowing him out of his contract. Same for Nagelsmann probably, though with his ambition and success at Leipzig thus far I could indeed see him aiming for bigger clubs anyway.

Maaßen supposedly is a highly rated up and comer, but the bottom line is he did very well at a 4th division club and moved to another ambitious 4th division team after his former club didn't accept the promotion he earned them. Dortmund's 2nd team has also been a good post to get a job in the Championship in the past. I doubt there is a definite plan with him, but as Rose and Nagelsmann might not be available the club might have to look for more creative solutions.
 

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I think this is a quite difficult matter and I assume it is something the bosses at Dortmund are struggling with quite a bit. First I have to say Favre is getting a lot more shit than is warranted in my opinion. I would say he has mostly achieved what could be expected of him. His style of play may not be overly inspiring (I'm not a huge fan to be honest), but he gets decent results. A different coach might get better results, might also be worse.

The question then becomes, which coach can reasonably be espected to do better and is available at the same time. Personally I am a big proponent of continuity in the coach's position. I believe a lot of teams suffer hugely because of frequent changes of management and the accompanying deadwood in the squad left by predecessors. That's why I think Favre should only be let go if a strong alternative can be found. I am aware however that not every Dortmund fan is of that opinion.

So some options were mentioned with varying degrees of attainability.
I would be somewhat surprised to see Nagelsmann sign for Dortmund, less because I believe he would not want to come but because I don't think Leipzig would let him go to Dortmund. Watzke has been one of the more outspoken people about Leipzig's business practices (rightfully so imho) and I believe the clubs are not on the best of terms. I rate Nagelsmann's coaching quite highly, however I am not sure how I would feel about him coaching Dortmund. Strikes me as a bit cnutish, but I might just be biased because so far he has only worked for clubs I have a considerable disdain for. Going by sheer talent I believe he would be the absolute best option.

Rose is also interesting, I like the style he has implemented in Gladbach. Taking him from Gladbach however would leave a bit of a bitter taste however as I would prefer to see where he can take them. I like Gladbach and don't really want to see my club poaching coaches from the direct opposition.

Maaßen has been in his job for less than four months. Dortmund II have been doing quite well in some of the previous seasons as well, I would not rate the current standings too highly. That being said I honestly know nothing about the guy except that he coached Rödinghausen before, another 4th division side. Unless our management sees him as some coaching genius I don't know why he would be considered for the job, especially next summer.

So these three don't seem overly likely to me and then I don't really see anyone that is both attainable and a definitive step up on Favre. And if nobody is attainable I would rather keep Favre to be honest.
 

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First I have to say Favre is getting a lot more shit than is warranted in my opinion. I would say he has mostly achieved what could be expected of him. His style of play may not be overly inspiring (I'm not a huge fan to be honest), but he gets decent results. A different coach might get better results, might also be worse.
Agree there. I'm biased, because Favre is probably my favourite coach, but there are (not so obvious) things he does exceptionally well.

He's famous for improving the players' technical ability up to the smallest details, and getting flair players to improve tactically. He also has a rich history of bringing young talents to elite level, which he has continued at Dortmund. All of this is immensely important for a club that has to have excellent youth development and high-end possession football basics.

Some issues with the squad also won't simply disappear if someone else takes over. (Although a more aggressive, daring manager like Rose may be able to make a few things click that Favre doesn't seem to get right.) Finally, while a reliable grip on 2nd position in Germany is only the minimum for Dortmund, it's not a given either. The next step has to be made, but the task of retaining the same basic level and improving top end performance shouldn't be underestimated.
 

do.ob

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Agree there. I'm biased, because Favre is probably my favourite coach, but there are (not so obvious) things he does exceptionally well.

He's famous for improving the players' technical ability up to the smallest details, and getting flair players to improve tactically. He also has a rich history of bringing young talents to elite level, which he has continued at Dortmund. All of this is immensely important for a club that has to have excellent youth development and high-end possession football basics.

Some issues with the squad also won't simply disappear if someone else takes over. (Although a more aggressive, daring manager like Rose may be able to make a few things click that Favre doesn't seem to get right.) Finally, while a reliable grip on 2nd position in Germany is only the minimum for Dortmund, it's not a given either. The next step has to be made, but the task of retaining the same basic level and improving top end performance shouldn't be underestimated.
He's a good coach and seems like a nice guy, his results are more or less what you can reasonably expect. But it seems like there is just absolutely no way that he can win a title with Dortmund. He's someone who seems to value stability and caution greatly and that just doesn't fit Dortmund or their squad. His tactics are so timid, he barely uses aggressive pressing, the possession play is quite risk averse, too. It's good enough to beat most teams in the league and get a convincing second place, but there are games, where you see that this "let's recycle possession for 50 minutes and see if they make a mistake or get tired eventually doesn't work. Like when they faced Lazio and instead of trying to gain some respect by opening aggressively against a team that hasn't played in the CL for a while and didn't start their season well it was more or less the same slow-paced rhythm as always and soon Lazio were confidently taking charge of the game. The same in the cup against Bremen or at home against Paderborn last season, some teams try to ambush Dortmund early and too often it works, because all they know to do is play it slow and safe, they cede momentum and when the weaker team realizes they can really make something happen that confidence lets them do some heroic stuff.

Away games in Europe:
A scrappy 1-0 win in Brügge and a 2-0 win in Prague and a 2-0 against a Monaco team in relegation form, the rest from 1:3 against Barca, to 0:2 against Inter, to 0:2 against PSG, to 0:2 against Atletico, to 0:3 against Spurs probably not even 1.0 xG between them. Games in Munich fit that list very well, too. It's the easiest football bet in Europe. Always some passive, "safe" approach, little to no pressing, sitting deep, giving the opposition full control only to eventually come to the surprising realization that you can't just defend deep and concede the midfield against these teams or play a toothless possession game for 90 minutes without getting punished eventually.

Sure Favre offes a safe 2nd or maybe 3rd place (if Leipzig do well), but who cares about that, when the squad is good enough to pull off an upset here and there, instead of defaulting every away game against top clubs or dropping in the cup to Bremen. A 6 out of 10 season is not something to hold on to and things would have to go very wrong to drop out of top 4, especially now that Leverkusen have folded.
 

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He's a good coach and seems like a nice guy, his results are more or less what you can reasonably expect. But it seems like there is just absolutely no way that he can win a title with Dortmund. He's someone who seems to value stability and caution greatly and that just doesn't fit Dortmund or their squad. His tactics are so timid, he barely uses aggressive pressing, the possession play is quite risk averse, too. It's good enough to beat most teams in the league and get a convincing second place, but there are games, where you see that this "let's recycle possession for 50 minutes and see if they make a mistake or get tired eventually doesn't work. Like when they faced Lazio and instead of trying to gain some respect by opening aggressively against a team that hasn't played in the CL for a while and didn't start their season well it was more or less the same slow-paced rhythm as always and soon Lazio were confidently taking charge of the game. The same in the cup against Bremen or at home against Paderborn last season, some teams try to ambush Dortmund early and too often it works, because all they know to do is play it slow and safe, they cede momentum and when the weaker team realizes they can really make something happen that confidence lets them do some heroic stuff.

Away games in Europe:
A scrappy 1-0 win in Brügge and a 2-0 win in Prague and a 2-0 against a Monaco team in relegation form, the rest from 1:3 against Barca, to 0:2 against Inter, to 0:2 against PSG, to 0:2 against Atletico, to 0:3 against Spurs probably not even 1.0 xG between them. Games in Munich fit that list very well, too. It's the easiest football bet in Europe. Always some passive, "safe" approach, little to no pressing, sitting deep, giving the opposition full control only to eventually come to the surprising realization that you can't just defend deep and concede the midfield against these teams or play a toothless possession game for 90 minutes without getting punished eventually.

Sure Favre offes a safe 2nd or maybe 3rd place (if Leipzig do well), but who cares about that, when the squad is good enough to pull off an upset here and there, instead of defaulting every away game against top clubs or dropping in the cup to Bremen. A 6 out of 10 season is not something to hold on to and things would have to go very wrong to drop out of top 4, especially now that Leverkusen have folded.
This criticism is (more or less) fair, and everybody knows these are fundamental issues. If you read my post carefully, I hinted that I understand them well, even if the focus was on some less obvious things that actually go right.

Only one thing I can really disagree with, I suspect dropping to 3rd/4th would actually be seen as a failure by the Dortmund board, for branding reasons. It's not only about CL football, but about a statement towards the competition behind Bayern.

What I didn't get is your point regarding the underlying basic question, which was the level required for the next manager to bring the team to the next level. Do you disagree with what was said there by Swarm and me?
 

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This criticism is (more or less) fair, and everybody knows these are fundamental issues. If you read my post carefully, I hinted that I understand them well, even if the focus was on some less obvious things that actually go right.

Only one thing I can really disagree with, I suspect dropping to 3rd/4th would actually be seen as a failure by the Dortmund board, for branding reasons. It's not only about CL football, but about a statement towards the competition behind Bayern.

What I didn't get is your point regarding the underlying basic question, which was the level required for the next manager to bring the team to the next level. Do you disagree with what was said there by Swarm and me?
Of course the management wouldn't be indifferent to getting overtaken by other clubs in the league and it might get a new coach fired, but as long as the club still makes in into the CL the consequences of that happening like once wouldn't be too dire and thus a risk worth taking over spending the years they have with good squad with exceptional players like for example Haaland and Hummels (players the club likely won't be able to replace once they leave/retire) in a glorified maintenance mode.

If I were to look at the requirements for a new coach through the lense of Favre's shortcomings I would say he needs to implement an aggressive pressing game in the team's repertoire and - as reluctant as I am to echo the media's superficial Klopp comparisons - he needs to have the charisma to inspire confidence, even when it may not be entirely warranted.
As boring as the matches may often be I would actually say that Favre's possession game is most of the time well drilled, effective and energy efficient and for example even Rose has yet to show that he can win games by dominating possession without having to outfight every opponent.

With almost all coaches you have this trade-off between dominant possession football and aggressive transition/pressing based football. The former usually does better when it comes to churning out win after win in a league setting, the latter does better when it comes to giving on point peak performances in cups. Even Guardiola (recently) and Klopp (until recently) fall into these categories. Bayern are so overwhelming, because they can do both.

Favre's passivity is almost unique in modern top level football, but he more or less clearly belongs in the former category. Unless Nagelsmann (who I believe offers the complete package) is somehow available I think the club should gravitate more to the second category again. The team will approach big games more ballsy, but will probably pay for that with some consistency in the league. Where Favre can probably get say 80 points (barring crises, like last season) a new coach might only get 75 points. But since neither will be good enough to dethrone the current Bayern team anyway, it won't make much of a difference. On the other hand a cup win or a deep CL run could be possible again.
 

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Wonder who will play RB with Klostermann, Laimer, Mukiele and Adams all out. That's their entire possible RB roster.

@do.ob @Synco Was listening to the Athletic's Steilcast and they had a good conversation regarding Dortmund's next manager. Favre's contract will be out next summer and it doesn't seem Dortmund are eager to give him a new deal, and neither are the fans. Rose and Nageslmann would be likely names in the pot to be the next manager but I wonder whether both will see Dortmund more as a sideways step rather than a big step up.

They mentioned Dortmund II's manager Enrico Maasen and said he's doing well as their manager (they are currently top of their 4th division league) and might consider him to be the next manager. Any local news about how good he is and whether fans would welcome his appointment rather than a big name?
While Nagelsmann is most certainly the preferred option for Watzke and the likes I don't see him coming to Dortmund. I feel like he will stay at Leipzig until 2023 trying to win a trophy here and there but mainly develop his coaching skillset to prepare for his next task which inevitably will be at one of the biggest clubs: Bayern, Real/Barca or some PL team.

Rose is my preferred choice (out of Nagelsmann and Rose) simply because I think he's a better fit personality wise. It will be interesting to see how he copes with adversity if Gladbach continue with their current form. However, he strikes me as a coach who won't 'abandon ship' as soon as he gets an offer from a bigger club, which only makes him available in 2022.

Enrico Maaßen is definitely an interesting option. I went to the Dortmund II's game when they played at Lotte a few weeks back. He is certainly more active from the sidelines than Favre. You could hear him scream motivational stuff as well as tactical advice all game long, especially in those 'pressing trigger' moments you could hear him all through the stadium (only around 300 spectators were there...) How well this kind of behaviour translates to a squad of seasoned professionals, world class youngsters and former world champions would remain to be seen. Tactically his style isn't dissimilar to Favre's with a patient build-up play (Favre is supposedly one of his main influences). However, he seems to favour a much more active style of pressing which is something a lot of Dortmund supporters are longing for. The most interesting aspect of his coaching to me is his emphasis on psychological factors like team building. There are quite a few interviews where he reiterates the importance of functioning group dynamic to achieve success.
While I'm convinced that Maaßen is an excellent coach it is obviously very different to coach in Germany's fourth division against weaker teams and quite frankly weaker coaches compared to coming up against the likes of Klopp, Simeone or Conte in the UCL.

The first few months of the new year will certainly be very interesting when Favre's future will constantly come up in press conferences before games.
 

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sign up, they said. it's a fun draft, they said.
Of course the management wouldn't be indifferent to getting overtaken by other clubs in the league and it might get a new coach fired, but as long as the club still makes in into the CL the consequences of that happening like once wouldn't be too dire and thus a risk worth taking over spending the years they have with good squad with exceptional players like for example Haaland and Hummels (players the club likely won't be able to replace once they leave/retire) in a glorified maintenance mode.

If I were to look at the requirements for a new coach through the lense of Favre's shortcomings I would say he needs to implement an aggressive pressing game in the team's repertoire and - as reluctant as I am to echo the media's superficial Klopp comparisons - he needs to have the charisma to inspire confidence, even when it may not be entirely warranted.
As boring as the matches may often be I would actually say that Favre's possession game is most of the time well drilled, effective and energy efficient and for example even Rose has yet to show that he can win games by dominating possession without having to outfight every opponent.

With almost all coaches you have this trade-off between dominant possession football and aggressive transition/pressing based football. The former usually does better when it comes to churning out win after win in a league setting, the latter does better when it comes to giving on point peak performances in cups. Even Guardiola (recently) and Klopp (until recently) fall into these categories. Bayern are so overwhelming, because they can do both.

Favre's passivity is almost unique in modern top level football, but he more or less clearly belongs in the former category. Unless Nagelsmann (who I believe offers the complete package) is somehow available I think the club should gravitate more to the second category again. The team will approach big games more ballsy, but will probably pay for that with some consistency in the league. Where Favre can probably get say 80 points (barring crises, like last season) a new coach might only get 75 points. But since neither will be good enough to dethrone the current Bayern team anyway, it won't make much of a difference. On the other hand a cup win or a deep CL run could be possible again.
I'm sceptical whether reinforcing transition football elements at the cost of positional play is enough to make the next step. It may be one step forward, one step back. Imo, a European elite team playing in the BL is cursed to be very good at possession football, so I see the only real way forward in a high-quality blend of both styles. Which is obviously the hardest to achieve, and the pool of coaches who can promise to do that is probably small.

I see four main challenges for any coach to bring Dortmund to the next level:
  • quality possession football against minnows, and in phases against top teams as well
  • quality pressing & a more courageous approach (not only against elite teams), while maintaining stability through collective workrate & individual quality in defense
  • high consistency while regularly integrating young unproven players
  • reliably developing teenage talents into elite (or even borderline world class) players
The mix between 1 & 2 can vary, but imo both have to be present at a high level. 3 & 4 are essential for Dortmund, and rarely feature enough in these discussions. Same with the issue of workrate / individual quality in defense (= player types & squad composition). It's almost like trying to square the circle. So that's where (at least my) scepticism about many of these supposed solutions comes from.

But if it's done successfully next season, I'll gladly eat my words.
 
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do.ob

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I'm sceptical whether reinforcing transition football elements at the cost of positional play is enough to make the next step. It may be one step forward, one step back. Imo, a European elite team playing in the BL is cursed to be very good at possession football, so I see the only real way forward in a high-quality blend of both styles. Which is obviously the hardest to achieve, and the pool of coaches who can promise to do that is probably small.

I see four main challenges for any coach to bring Dortmund to the next level:
  • quality possession football against minnows, and in phases against top teams as well
  • quality pressing & a more courageous approach (not only against elite teams), while maintaining stability through collective workrate & individual quality in defense
  • high consistency while regularly integrating young unproven players
  • reliably developing teenage talents into elite (or even borderline world class) players
The mix between 1 & 2 can vary, but imo both have to be present at a high level. 3 & 4 are essential for Dortmund, and rarely feature enough in these discussions. Same with the issue of workrate / individual quality in defense (= player types & squad composition). It's almost like trying to square the circle. So that's where (at least my) scepticism about many of these supposed solutions comes from.

But if it's done successfully next season, I'll gladly eat my words.
#3 and #4 are basically a given with any German speaking coach, considering most of them are former youth coaches and used to having to nuture star players themselves, because their clubs don't have the money to buy them. Even the most "exotic options" I can think of fit that bill, e.g. ten Hag who is basically coaching half an academy team at Ajax, Marsh from Salzburg, who is basically coaching Leipzig's u23. Maaßen is doing the same for Dortmund at the moment and even Pochettino (not that this would be a particular likely option) earned his spurs at a club with a similar MO as Dortmund.

It's also not like Favre aces these categories either. In his first season the team collapsed in the second half of the season (though of course that's not just on him) and their woefully inconsistent first half of last season cost Dortmund a real shot at the title and Favre almost his job.

And I find it hard to tell how much of a player's development is down to the coach and how much is just the inherent talent of the kid, especially when you have such a collection of highly rated youngsters as Dortmund. I could easily tell you that Sancho was already showing his quality during the clusterfeck that was Stöger's half series and he still hasn't learned the importance of defensive contribution, that he couldn't teach Dahoud consistency, that Hakimi left as bad a defender as when he joined, that Brandt is basically the same player he was at Leverkusen (or even worse, if you contrast him to his time under Bosz), that he discarded Götze, that Akanji still has the same weaknesses, that he kept benching Zagadou, so he could play Weigl at CB, that during their one shared season Pulisic was half the player he looks now, that Favre infact benched him for Bruun-Larsen, who didn't show any signs of development at all. Now of course I won't blame Favre for all of that, but I think it shows what a slippery slope you put yourself on when you try to credit a coach with player development.

Obviously everyone would prefer someone who ticks all the boxes and I wouldn't necessarily advise hiring a one dimensional pressing merchant. But it's not realistic to expect a coach who does everything well either and if you have to pick and choose what's the point of going for someone who offers to finish 5 points behind Bayern instead of 10 over someone who offers you to finish 10 points instead of 5 behind Bayern, but actually gives you the chance of winning the cup or bring the club some glory in the CL?
 
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Synco

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sign up, they said. it's a fun draft, they said.
Alright, I think it's time to leave it at that. You seem to read a bit too much into my intentions. So, finally:
Obviously everyone would prefer someone who ticks all the boxes and I wouldn't necessarily advise hiring a one dimensional pressing merchant. But it's not realistic to expect a coach who does everything well either and if you have to pick and choose what's the point of going for someone who offers to finish 5 points behind Bayern instead of 10 over someone who offers you to finish 10 points instead of 5 behind Bayern, but actually gives you the chance of winning the cup or bring the club some glory in the CL?
Of course the latter would be preferable - but the premise here is that your equation works. As I said:
But if it's done successfully next season, I'll gladly eat my words.
 
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do.ob

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Schalke's unwincibles take another step in their Tasmania challenge to make it 22 games.

Another game where they were hopeless in attack.
 

CookieMonster

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Schalke has to turn the trend around somehow. If they get relegated to the second division they might go the way of the dodos known as KSC, Kaiserslautern and 1860 Munich and never truly make their way back to the Bundesliga. They might even have to declare bankruptcy.
 

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Commentator in this Koln - Bayern game is blind. Clearly hit the defender on the arm and he's suggesting out hit his knee :houllier:

1-0 Muller.
 

GhastlyHun

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Keeper blocked the ball straight to Sané's shin, but the latter was too surprised to give the slightest impulse, so the ball went back for an easy save.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Only just checked out RB Leipzig formation, they are using 442 diamond against Borussia Mönchengladbach. Nagelsmann learnt something from Ole :lol: :D:devil:
 

do.ob

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Had to be Wolf who broke the tie, some nice moments for that goal: Bensebaini having the presence of mind to turn his loose touch into dart through a gap in the first pressing line, Plea delaying for that second to get a clear pass and Herrmann doing the quick layoff, instead of forcing a shot himself.
 

Adnan

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Had to be Wolf who broke the tie, some nice moments for that goal: Bensebaini having the presence of mind to turn his loose touch into dart through a gap in the first pressing line, Plea delaying for that second to get a clear pass and Herrmann doing the quick layoff, instead of forcing a shot himself.
Wolf is the man and that propels Die Fohlen to 4th in the table which I'm very pleased about.
 

do.ob

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Wolf is the man and that propels Die Fohlen to 4th in the table which I'm very pleased about.
Leverkusen might yet overtake them, but it's true that the table is basically already sorted in the expected order at the top. Last season we had Freiburg at 3rd and Schalke at 4th place after the 6th matchday.
 

do.ob

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VAR saving Leverkusen from an early catastrophy against Freiburg. I'm sure it was the correct call according to the rules, but a free kick and a yellow don't seem "fair", when Bender tripped an opponent who was just about to enter the box, probably with a decent shooting opportunity, without the slightest intention of playing the ball. The latter is what makes it dissatisfying to me, because the free kick probably was a significantly worse opportunity than the one attacker was originally in.
 

do.ob

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https://www.kicker.de/keine-u-bunde...r-dfb-den-nachwuchs-umkrempeln-788769/artikel

We might see drastic reforms to Germany's youth setup.

  • DFB youth officials have been working on this since before the disappointing 2018 world cup.
  • These are concrete plans which DFB has already shared with the clubs.
  • They concern the U14 to U19 teams.
  • The idea is to take the 56 "performance centers (LZ)" (basically the clubs that make up the top tier youth leagues) out of the league system and to abandon the u17 and u19 Bundesliga - which has become more and more prestigious in recent years.
  • Teams will be split in according to region and play against other LZs.
  • No relegation, as long as the clubs can keep their "LZ" status.
  • The idea is to find a better balance between competitiveness and player development. To make training and games less about short term results.
  • These competitions will have their own commissions to make up their own rules and quickly adjust them if need be. One possible example could be splitting up the game in thirds and making it mandatory for every squad member to be used in at least one of them. Or the option to allow teams to agree to let a kid, whose body is developing behind the curve, to play in a younger age group.
  • The national champion will be determined by several "development tournaments" that will be played throughout the whole year and will allow for the best amateur clubs or "dream teams" from several amateur clubs to compete.

A test run of u17 and u19 tournaments is planned for next April and the whole project still needs a majority vote from an extraordinary DFB parliamentary session on the matter. If that works out it could be implemented fully as early as 22/23.