German Football 20/21

Adnan

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Konate making his first start in the BuLi since coming back from injury (playing in a back 4) opens the scoring for RB Leipzig against Freiburg.
 

do.ob

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Mainz vs Schalke is the game to watch. Already feels a bit like a playoff, the teams definitely give it their all. Two goals already, one sweet free kick from Uth.

2nd penalty for Mainz, this is a thriller :drool:
 
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Zehner

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Those two offside decisions are why people think the VAR is shit. The media and fans won't care because we're missing the letter n in our namr but that's just incredibly frustrating.
 

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Good win for Leverkusen. The turning points were when Gladbach missed great chances to make it 1-3 and Wolf's miss at 2-2 with Leverkusen then proceeding to score from the very next attack.
 

do.ob

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I've got to say, respect to Peter Bosz for barely losing a step, despite losing Volland and Havertz and what little replacements he got for them getting injured immediately. Such a shame he joined Dortmund when they were a poisoned chalice.

Already goal of the year contender. Incredible
Quite fitting, given they also delivered a miss of the season contender.
 

Zehner

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I've got to say, respect to Peter Bosz for barely losing a step, despite losing Volland and Havertz and what little replacements he got for them getting injured immediately. Such a shame he joined Dortmund when they were a poisoned chalice.



Quite fitting, given they also delivered a miss of the season contender.
Rose and Nagelsmann receive all the hype but I think Bosz is one of the most underrated coaches in the Bundesliga. Call me biased but I think the football we played when Bosz still had Havertz and Brandt at his disposal was better than anything those two showed with their respective teams. I also think his style is more fitting for a top side. When the team put his ideas into practice, it sparked Bayern vibes against smaller opponents. He's incredibly good at utilizing quality advantages and suffocating weaker teams through possession based football. You really get this "too good to lose" instead of a "good enough to win" feeling. I believe Dortmund would be a much better side under Bosz than under Favre. He'd work wonders with that squad.
 

mazhar13

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Rose and Nagelsmann receive all the hype but I think Bosz is one of the most underrated coaches in the Bundesliga. Call me biased but I think the football we played when Bosz still had Havertz and Brandt at his disposal was better than anything those two showed with their respective teams. I also think his style is more fitting for a top side. When the team put his ideas into practice, it sparked Bayern vibes against smaller opponents. He's incredibly good at utilizing quality advantages and suffocating weaker teams through possession based football. You really get this "too good to lose" instead of a "good enough to win" feeling. I believe Dortmund would be a much better side under Bosz than under Favre. He'd work wonders with that squad.
He is capable of having his teams produce these kinds of performances, but he needs to find the right balance in his team to get them. There were many occasions where he'd field two attacking midfielders in a midfield 3, and neither of them would transition back into the right defensive positions or close the gaps that appear in the midfield. He's sort of compensated for that with Lars Bender at full back, who covers lots of ground and is defensively adept, as well as Wirtz in the midfield 3, who has similar energy levels and good at following tactical instructions.

Also, he did coach Dortmund in 2017 and was terrible there. Favre's done better than he has up to now.
 

Zehner

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He is capable of having his teams produce these kinds of performances, but he needs to find the right balance in his team to get them. There were many occasions where he'd field two attacking midfielders in a midfield 3, and neither of them would transition back into the right defensive positions or close the gaps that appear in the midfield. He's sort of compensated for that with Lars Bender at full back, who covers lots of ground and is defensively adept, as well as Wirtz in the midfield 3, who has similar energy levels and good at following tactical instructions.

Also, he did coach Dortmund in 2017 and was terrible there. Favre's done better than he has up to now.
I don't think that is very accurate. When he had a quality team, we were very consistent from the very beginning. During that time we played a very attacking midfield three consisting of Brandt, Havertz and Aranguiz. But we never replaced Brandt and that haunted us last season. Now we lost Havertz on top of it and still look much better. Our transfers weren't really on point recently but Bosz still managed averaging 1,9 points since he joined us. Statistically that makes him the best Leverkusen coach in history - even better than Heynckes, Daum and Topmöller. And they had less competition back in the day.

To be honest I think you're ignoring the quality aspect of his squads. His Dortmund team e. g. looks pretty shitty in hindsight. Players like Toprak, Toljan, Weigl, Sahin, Castro, Götze, Kagawa, Schürrle, Yarmolenko and Philipp were integral parts of the squad - where are they now?
And our team wasn't exactly outstanding during the majority of his time here either. Some outrageously talented players, a selected few of them living up to it, but then also many who are nowhere near the quality required for CL football.
 

mazhar13

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I don't think that is very accurate. When he had a quality team, we were very consistent from the very beginning. During that time we played a very attacking midfield three consisting of Brandt, Havertz and Aranguiz. But we never replaced Brandt and that haunted us last season. Now we lost Havertz on top of it and still look much better. Our transfers weren't really on point recently but Bosz still managed averaging 1,9 points since he joined us. Statistically that makes him the best Leverkusen coach in history - even better than Heynckes, Daum and Topmöller. And they had less competition back in the day.

To be honest I think you're ignoring the quality aspect of his squads. His Dortmund team e. g. looks pretty shitty in hindsight. Players like Toprak, Toljan, Weigl, Sahin, Castro, Götze, Kagawa, Schürrle, Yarmolenko and Philipp were integral parts of the squad - where are they now?
And our team wasn't exactly outstanding during the majority of his time here either. Some outrageously talented players, a selected few of them living up to it, but then also many who are nowhere near the quality required for CL football.
I don't question his team's attacking quality and proactive football; that's very good if not world class. What is a problem is the defensive balance in his teams. Last season, he played several matches where he had one of Aranguiz and Baumgartlinger holding with two of Demirbay, Amiri, and Havertz in the midfield. They looked good going forward, but defensively, they were stretched with relative ease. Their balance wasn't helped by the fact that they had more attacking full backs in their side as well. I do remember a few games where Bosz would play a back 3 to compensate, and they'd look way better. This season, he's had Wirtz play in their midfield 3, and they've looked way more assured with him there.

If he can sort out his side's defensive balance, his teams would be potential Bundesliga challengers. That's always been his problem, though, even at Ajax and Dortmund.
 

do.ob

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Also, he did coach Dortmund in 2017 and was terrible there. Favre's done better than he has up to now.
People ignore how doomed Dortmund were that season, from Dembele forcing a move right around season start and Aubameyang following suit later, to players still having to cope with the bus attack (Barta fell apart completely, Bürki who sat next to him also had a really terrible phase), to injuries: Reus didn't play a single minute under Bosz, their form went downhill when Piszczek got injured and he had to line up with Toljan, Toprak, Sokratis and Zagadou as his back four, with Sahin in front of them. They replaced nearly their entire team since then and for good reason.
I think it's fair to suggest that Bosz took a bit to long to adjust to his team's huge dip in form after their spectacular early season run and it's also fair to argue that Favre as a more risk averse coach probably would've been better at steadying the ship, but as far as context goes Favre might as well be coaching a different club, because he took over post rebuilt, so I don't think it's fair to just compare their results and rule in his favor.



Rose and Nagelsmann receive all the hype but I think Bosz is one of the most underrated coaches in the Bundesliga. Call me biased but I think the football we played when Bosz still had Havertz and Brandt at his disposal was better than anything those two showed with their respective teams. I also think his style is more fitting for a top side. When the team put his ideas into practice, it sparked Bayern vibes against smaller opponents. He's incredibly good at utilizing quality advantages and suffocating weaker teams through possession based football. You really get this "too good to lose" instead of a "good enough to win" feeling. I believe Dortmund would be a much better side under Bosz than under Favre. He'd work wonders with that squad.
It's only natural that the two Germans get rated more highly since they are much younger, have steeper career trajectories and are free of a blemish such as Bosz's Dortmund job on their CV.
Bosz has the most radical approach among the three, so when it works, it looks the most impressive. But Rose and Nagelsmann being perhaps less ambitious tactically also means they are (much) more solid, while not necessarily being less successful. The half-season you mentioned bottom line netted 34 points, last season Nagelsmann played a 37 point half season with Leipzig and Rose delivered 35 points. And before you bring up that Leipzig has a better squad: Nagelsmann beat Bosz 4-1 with Hoffenheim during the time in question and pulled of two consecutive 31 point half seasons with them before that.
Favre probably lacks that necessary bit of motivational skills and cojones to win a title with Dortmund and therefore I think it's time to give the job to someone else, but that doesn't he isn't a good coach and that we should bring the good things he adds to the team for granted, just today I stumbled upon a Twitter threat highlighting how well his team currently performs in terms of possession stats:
(
At the moment I'd rather have Bosz, because his football is more exciting and if it works has a better chance at a title. But that if is not a foregone conclusion. For example one of the things Favre does well is organizing defensive cover: despite usually having lots of possession Dortmund rarely get caught out on the counter, which is especially important if you consider that their defense - Hummels especially - lack a bit of pace. As far as I remember this has been a particular issue for Bosz in the past.
 
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mazhar13

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People ignore how doomed Dortmund were that season, from Dembele forcing a move right around season start and Aubameyang followed suit later, to players still having to cope with the bus attack (Barta fell apart completely, Bürki who sat next to him also had a really terrible phase), to injuries: Reus didn't play a single minute under Bosz, their form went downhill when Piszczek got injured and he had to line up with Toljan, Toprak, Sokratis and Zagadou as his back four, with Sahin in front of them. They replaced nearly their entire team since then and for good reason.
I think it's fair to suggest that Bosz took a bit to long to adjust to his team's huge dip in form after their spectacular early season run and it's also fair to argue that Favre as a more risk averse coach probably would've been better at steadying the ship, but as far as context goes Favre might as well be coaching a different club, because he took over post rebuilt, so I don't think it's fair to just compare their results and rule in his favor.
That is a good point for sure; Bosz had a very tough time. However, for a club that's aspiring for trophies, you'd have thought that he'd had made the appropriate adjustments. Favre's done that whenever he's had to deal with adversity whilst Bosz stuck to his guns and kept going with his usual approach. Having said that, he has become more adaptable at Leverkusen, and we're starting to see some more pragmatism from him as well (fielding a back 3; two defensively adept midfielders in his midfield 3).
 

do.ob

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That is a good point for sure; Bosz had a very tough time. However, for a club that's aspiring for trophies, you'd have thought that he'd had made the appropriate adjustments. Favre's done that whenever he's had to deal with adversity whilst Bosz stuck to his guns and kept going with his usual approach. Having said that, he has become more adaptable at Leverkusen, and we're starting to see some more pragmatism from him as well (fielding a back 3; two defensively adept midfielders in his midfield 3).
That was actually a common misconception at the time. Bosz did change his tactics:


But at that point other factors also took over: e.g. Aubameyang having been dropped for disciplinary reasons against Stuttgart and Dortmund ended up losing after they couldn't convert their chances and Bartra and Bürki basically pulled a goal out of thin air. Or the Schalke game, which looked like Bosz's big comeback where Aubameyang got himself sent off at 4:2.

On the other hand Favre was more than ripe for sacking last season, before he finally made the switch to a back 3, some reports said after pressure from players.
 
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mazhar13

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That was actually a common misconception at the time. Bosz did change his tactics:


But at that point other factors also took over: e.g. Aubameyang having been dropped for disciplinary reasons against Stuttgart and Dortmund ended up losing after they couldn't convert their chances and Bartra and Bürki basically pulled a goal out of thin air. Or the Schalke game, which looked like Bosz's big comeback were Aubameyang got himself sent off at 4:2.

On the other hand Favre was more than ripe for sacking before he finally made the switch to a back 3, some reports said after pressure from players.
Fair enough; I must have completely forgotten about some of his matches.
 

Zehner

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People ignore how doomed Dortmund were that season, from Dembele forcing a move right around season start and Aubameyang following suit later, to players still having to cope with the bus attack (Barta fell apart completely, Bürki who sat next to him also had a really terrible phase), to injuries: Reus didn't play a single minute under Bosz, their form went downhill when Piszczek got injured and he had to line up with Toljan, Toprak, Sokratis and Zagadou as his back four, with Sahin in front of them. They replaced nearly their entire team since then and for good reason.
I think it's fair to suggest that Bosz took a bit to long to adjust to his team's huge dip in form after their spectacular early season run and it's also fair to argue that Favre as a more risk averse coach probably would've been better at steadying the ship, but as far as context goes Favre might as well be coaching a different club, because he took over post rebuilt, so I don't think it's fair to just compare their results and rule in his favor.





It's only natural that the two Germans get rated more highly since they are much younger, have steeper career trajectories and are free of a blemish such as Bosz's Dortmund job on their CV.
Bosz has the most radical approach among the three, so when it works, it looks the most impressive. But Rose and Nagelsmann being perhaps less ambitious tactically also means they are (much) more solid, while not necessarily being less successful. The half-season you mentioned bottom line netted 34 points, last season Nagelsmann played a 37 point half season with Leipzig and Rose delivered 35 points. And before you bring up that Leipzig has a better squad: Nagelsmann beat Bosz 4-1 with Hoffenheim during the time in question and pulled of two consecutive 31 point half seasons with them before that.
Favre probably lacks that necessary bit of motivational skills and cojones to win a title with Dortmund and therefore I think it's time to give the job to someone else, but that doesn't he isn't a good coach and that we should bring the good things he adds to the team for granted, just today I stumbled upon a Twitter threat highlighting how well his team currently performs in terms of possession stats:
(
At the moment I'd rather have Bosz, because his football is more exciting and if it works has a better chance at a title. But that if is not a foregone conclusion. For example one of the things Favre does well is organizing defensive cover: despite usually having lots of possession Dortmund rarely get caught out on the counter, which is especially important if you consider that their defense - Hummels especially - lack a bit of pace. As far as I remember this has been a particular issue for Bosz in the past.
Well, Bosz took over in the winter break immediately before he had that 34 points half of the season. In his first game, we completely dominated Gladbach but only played 1-1 due to our bad chance conversion. We beat Bayern but lost to Leipzig after probably the worst VAR call to date gifted Leipzig a penalty. And we also dominated Dortmund but lost after two individual mistakes by Wendell. We looked the better team in three of those four games and went toe to toe with Bayern in the fourth (ironically the only one weve one). Again, Bosz took over during the winter break and transformed the team completely. Honestly, a 40 goal half of a season would've been deserved, at least from a coaching perspective. We lost the tight games due to serious quality issues and some of the players to blame have turned out to be much worse then the general perception back then (Wendell, Weiser, Bellarabi, Dragovic, Bailey too until recently).

I fully understand your remaining points though. Nagelsmann and Rose are less idealistic than Bosz. However, I have the feeling that Bosz' style in particular is more suited to a top club because those will eventually end up with more possession most of the time since the higher the quality gap the more likely the opponent is to park the bus. I mean, even Klopp as the prototype German pressing and transition coach has implemented those elements in his style.

Not saying that Bosz is necessarily the better coach. Nagelsmann and Rose are phenomenal, no question. But I think Bosz is seriously underrated due to his Dortmund spell for the reasons you mentioned above. Not that I would mind. Think he's currently the most important person at our club so I'm fine with top clubs eyeing Rose and Nagelsmann over him ;)
 

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I don't question his team's attacking quality and proactive football; that's very good if not world class. What is a problem is the defensive balance in his teams. Last season, he played several matches where he had one of Aranguiz and Baumgartlinger holding with two of Demirbay, Amiri, and Havertz in the midfield. They looked good going forward, but defensively, they were stretched with relative ease. Their balance wasn't helped by the fact that they had more attacking full backs in their side as well. I do remember a few games where Bosz would play a back 3 to compensate, and they'd look way better. This season, he's had Wirtz play in their midfield 3, and they've looked way more assured with him there.

If he can sort out his side's defensive balance, his teams would be potential Bundesliga challengers. That's always been his problem, though, even at Ajax and Dortmund.
Thing is we don't really concede due to defensive instability but usually through stupid mistakes. I always find it hard to blame the coach for that. We looked rock solid defensively in his first season and our midfield consisted of Brandt, Havertz and Aranguiz back then which is even more attack minded. The issue had more to do with many players not being very comfortable on the ball, losing it quite often in bad situations. Amiri, Bellarabi, Bailey, Demirbay, Baumgartlinger, Wendell, Weiser etc. are all notorious for such possession losses. And some of our defenders are just slapstick sometimes, especially Wendell but also Dragovic and Weiser.

Weiser was so bad that he wasn't even nominated for the EL squad this season. He was a intended as a starter last season. Wendell has been replaced by Sinkgraven who's not really a top defender either but looks at least two or three levels above him. In the one game Arias played, he also looked as if he's light years ahead of Lars Bender of whom I'm not really a big fan any longer. Honestly, our defense was just utter shit quality wise but it's not really been that obvious due to our good possession play. Bosz in fact proved that he's quite defensive minded multiple times, often choosing solid players like Baumgartlinger over much more talented alternatives like Paulinho or Palacios out of concern over our stability (he even claimed so publicly on numerous press conferences).
 

Zehner

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So you’re telling me Bosz at Bayern would be glorious?
Can't tell. Managing a top club takes more than a great system and the ability to teach it. He also might be too small of a name.

Also, I think they already have the best coach in the league right now ;)
 

Cheimoon

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Can't tell. Managing a top club takes more than a great system and the ability to teach it. He also might be too small of a name.

Also, I think they already have the best coach in the league right now ;)
I.e., yes, but I'm not saying so because I want to keep him for myself. ;) (I know you're not actually saying that.)
 

Hansi Fick

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Apparently DW now dabble in propaganda as well. ;)
Err.. not sure you picked a great example there. DW is the very definition of a media station whose mission it is to propagate Germany and all things German abroad.
 

do.ob

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Err.. not sure you picked a great example there. DW is the very definition of a media station whose mission it is to propagate Germany and all things German abroad.
They are among the most critical mainstream sports outlets.
 

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Apparently DW now dabble in propaganda as well. ;)
Reminds me of that Ballon d'or in the mid-90's or so. The German vote (might have been from Berti Vogts): 1. A German. 2. A German. 3. A German. :lol:
 

do.ob

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Big news for Dortmund: at their annual meeting share holders have authorized the management to issue 18 million new shares until 2025. At the current price that would mean around €100m or double that if they can get it back to where it was before the virus hit.
 
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do.ob

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It has finally happened:


Here's a little portrait from Eckner:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/55002923

Arguably the most hyped German youngster to this day. Even Götze had to prove his talent in a couple of senior matches, before the hype reached a similar level. Given the fact that Bundesliga has lowered its minimum age by a year before the season he's lined up to break a couple of records and since substitutions come cheap with increase to five and the horse is already out of the barn regarding hype I wouldn't be surprised if he gets his first minutes as soon as Dortmund have their next comfortable lead.
 
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schwalbe

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It has finally happened:

Here's a little portrait from Eckner:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/55002923

Arguably the most hyped German youngster to this day. Even Götze had to prove his talent in a couple of senior matches, before the hype reached a similar level. Given the fact that Bundesliga has lowered its minimum age by a year before the season he's lined up to break a couple of records and since substitutions come cheap with increase to five and the horse is already out of the barn regarding hype I wouldn't be surprised if he gets his first minutes as soon as Dortmund have their next comfortable lead.
I still have no idea what kind of player he is. The only thing I could really see from the few videos I watched was that he knows how to score goals.
 

Hansi Fick

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I still have no idea what kind of player he is. The only thing I could really see from the few videos I watched was that he knows how to score goals.
Which is an invaluable quality in a football striker.

But yes, same here, I've never seen him play apart from highlights and there's a huge sense of anticipation now.
Rule of thumb really is to be wary of the chances of super-hyped teenagers making it as big as their hype anticipates, it rarely happens. One thing that seems a positive sign though is that his sheer and ridiculous domination of youth teams does not seem to have been based upon exploiting some physical precociousness.
 
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do.ob

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I still have no idea what kind of player he is. The only thing I could really see from the few videos I watched was that he knows how to score goals.
To be honest I'm in the same boat. As his goal tally (13 goals in 4 matches this season) and the shot map I posted above suggest he's a great finisher. But beyond that I don't really see it. Against youngsters he looks like a fairly complete player, but e.g. neither does his pace seem that explosive or his ball control that impeccable that it would match up with his goal tally to me. His upper body strength and balance match up impressively against u19 defenders, but a seasoned Bundesliga player will be a different story entirely. If nerves don't become an issue I'm sure he will score his first goal quite soon, simply, because Dortmund's team will likely set him up well. But beyond that I'm waiting to see how he does at senior level before I come up with any expectations.
On the other hand personnel at Dortmund are significantly more forthcoming to the public about him than they usually are about their youngsters, during pre season Watzke basically said part of the reason why they didn't sign an a proper Haaland backup was not to block Moukoko. In the end they know him and his chances in the adult game a lot better than me.
 

Sir Tanley Daft

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I still have no idea what kind of player he is. The only thing I could really see from the few videos I watched was that he knows how to score goals.
I used to be quite involved in "performance-oriented"(?) youth football in the Rhein-Ruhr region and thus saw him play a few times. The most surprising thing for me was his ball control. It always seemed like he had a sloppy technique but I rarely saw him lose the ball which is quite important if you're going to be involved in build-up play.
But of course his main skill is scoring goals and judging by games I saw live as well as videos of him scoring it seems like he just knows where to put the ball when he is in front of the goal. His pace is very helpful as well.

Regarding the hype around him I think Dortmund are actually doing the right thing at the moment - just get it over with. Until he plays his first game every journalist will write about him and when it will happen anyway. So after the first two or three games as a substitute the media might find other topics to write about again.
 

NYAS

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Is he more hyped than Bojan Krkic was? He had no clear physical advantage against his opponents and his goal-scoring record at youth level was also absurd if I recall correctly.