German Football 20/21

Hansi Fick

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The same discussion is being had in the EPL about Bielsa's Leeds. Lots of people are arguing he's stupid for setting up the way he does, because it's too open defensively. But the reality right now is that they're looking pretty certain to stay up despite having one of the worst squads in the league.

I don't know about the Union Berlin game you describe, but in the end, quality also matters. A team like Man United is always likely to crush Leeds, because their attack is just too strong. But that's not what Leeds have to care about. If they can get those 3 points on board often enough against lower-level opposition, then occasionally getting murdered by top teams is totally fine as their survival in the league is guaranteed. This would change, of course, if they'd start upgrading their squad over the seasons and want to be in the conversation for European spots. I don't know if that dynamic was relevant for the Union Berlin game though.
I told the story about that game merely because it's basically the only match by this Holstein Kiel I ever watched in full, and in exactly that match the approach which has worked for them in general turned out to not work. It's just anecdotal, I didn't mean this in any way as exemplaric in the debate about strategies.

And yes, your point about quality of course stands, and it's often frustrating in debate how, when a 'lower' quality team that is relatively successful with attacking football loses a game against better opposition while playing their attacking football, the fact that they played this kind of football is then blamed, as if they violated an obligation to sit back against better teams. As if it is ok to lose against a better team ONLY if you tried sitting back :lol:
 

Zehner

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I don't watch Kiel that closely, so I can't tell you much about Werner. But it's easy to see how they are trying to get a competitive edge. The guy who almost got them promoted twice in a row to Bundesliga was Markus Anfang, they got him from Leverkusen's youth setup. After he got poached by Cologne, they signed Tim Walter from Bayern II. That guy had some absolutely radical build up ideas:

and after he got poached by Stuttgart they promoted Werner from their own youth setup. Judging by the footage from the Bayern game he seems to have some strong principles about football as well.
Very interesting. Sounds like there are some very competent people in charge. See, imagine the HSV or Schalke being lead so professionally ;) Would make disrupting established teams much harder for us plastic clubs.
 

do.ob

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Leverkusen with one point in four matches. Dortmund, Wolfsburg and Leipzig their next opponents :nervous:
 

mazhar13

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Union Berlin looked comfortable the whole match. They were happy to let the Leverkusen midfield have the ball and advance it into the final third. The overall lack of creativity despite having players like Demirbay, Amiri, and Bailey must be a huge cause of concern for them.
 

do.ob

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Tah said in the post match that Amiri has been called "shit Afghan" by an opponent.
 

mazhar13

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Tah said in the post match that Amiri has been called "shit Afghan" by an opponent.
That explains why he got so angry. I wonder if Awoniyi was playing a part given that he got pushed to the side after exchanging words with Amiri.
 

troylocker

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Great finish from Haaland, but the goal was dissallowed for offside on Meunier earlier in the move
 

hasanejaz88

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Why do they give Reus penalties to take? Dumb arses.
He's been their regular penalty taker for the past few years but yea recently he's missed a few. Don't now why Haaland isn't taking penalties, maybe seniority comes in.
 

hasanejaz88

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Dortmund and Leipzig draw. Bayern will beat Freiburg and go 5 points up in the table :rolleyes:
 

Hansi Fick

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So in the logic of Union DoF Ruhnert, Hübner calling Amiri "fecking Afghan" can't be racist as Hübner's wife is of Indian descent.
This is dodgy on so many levels :lol:
 

FootballHQ

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Surely it's time Dortmund got in a decent caretaker for rest of the season? What's Hiddink up to? Or Heynckes......
 

KingKoki

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He's been their regular penalty taker for the past few years but yea recently he's missed a few. Don't now why Haaland isn't taking penalties, maybe seniority comes in.
I registered here just to reply to this. In Norway we have been baffled why Haaland does not take the penalties for Dortmund. The guy has become a world class striker the last two years, but he has always been a world class penalty taker since his early youth. Except one miss in a pre season match and one when he slipped as a 15-year old i 2015, Haaland has never missed a penalty :eek:
 

Hansi Fick

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What reason does Sancho have to stay for now? Its a mess if a club atm
You mean for the rest of the season? Or in summer?

Selling a key player in midseason is surely not going to happen.
But I don't think anyone expects Sancho to stay beyond the summer if he has meaningful offers.
In fact, noone really expected him to stay last summer, Dortmund's readiness to sell under the right circumstances was transparent. The surprise was rather that Man United didn't actually pursue the transfer, though with Corona in mind that maybe shouldn't be so surprising.

The question is then, who will be in for him in summer, and how forcefully.
 

do.ob

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What reason does Sancho have to stay for now? Its a mess if a club atm
Surely it's time Dortmund got in a decent caretaker for rest of the season? What's Hiddink up to? Or Heynckes......
Why do they give Reus penalties to take? Dumb arses.

Knee jerk central...

Reus had 4 misses in 19 before today. That's an okay ratio.

And while the team was a mess in the last days of Favre, Terzic has actually done well to stabilize things. It won't be enough to challenge for the league this season, but at the moment it seems like it will probably be enough for a relatively smooth top 4 finish. Calling for him to be sacked a week after beating Leipzig, because his team missed a bunch of chances against Mainz, and to replace him with Hiddink is madness, to put it nicely.
 
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HerrLeinad

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Thiago was arguably their most valuable player. However, on paper Costa and Sané don't look much worse than Coutinho and Perisic, probably even better. Most people thought they improved their attack a few months ago.
No, Thiago certainly wasn't the most valuable player. If you created a "ranking" it'd probably be Lewandowski, Neuer, Kimmich, Müller and THEN Thiago but last season you could even make an argument for players like Goretzka, Davies or Gnabry being more important.
May I remind you that Thiago wasn't even a regular starter when Bayern turned things around and that Thiago WAS around when things were complete chaos under Kovac.
That doesn't mean Thiago isn't a top class player but you are going over the top with your "analysis" here especially considering that Thiago simply isn't a leader on the pitch. He works his magic if the team functions as one unit, that's why he could show his full potential in the final CL stage but let's not forget that he had Goretzka at his side and Kimmich who was moved back to RB and was still the guy giving the assist that decided the CL final.

The problems in the current season are down to a lack of intensity, the same problem we had under Kovac (with Thiago). Flick's style of play needs that intensity and if we are talking about CM issues then it's that in the last 2-3 months we often had at least one of Kimmich/Goretzka missing. So in that regard Thiago's absence does hurt because we obviously don't have a backup that is as good as those two.
 

Cheimoon

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The problems in the current season are down to a lack of intensity, the same problem we had under Kovac (with Thiago). Flick's style of play needs that intensity and if we are talking about CM issues then it's that in the last 2-3 months we often had at least one of Kimmich/Goretzka missing. So in that regard Thiago's absence does hurt because we obviously don't have a backup that is as good as those two.
So in your 'analysis' (if that's how you want to write that), what can Flick so to increase the intensity? People tend to blame players for any lack thereof, but I don't buy that. Creating intensity is part of a coach's squad matchday preparations.
 

Hansi Fick

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Pretty rich to hang the shitness of the Kovac era onto Thiago when during both Carlo's and most of all Kovac's time Thiago was literally the only player still providing regular top performances week in week out, carrying our sad sorry team to the Meisterschaft basically by himself, all the while Neuer, Müller, Boateng and so on were busy with their mid life crises.
 

HerrLeinad

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So in your 'analysis' (if that's how you want to write that), what can Flick so to increase the intensity? People tend to blame players for any lack thereof, but I don't buy that. Creating intensity is part of a coach's squad matchday preparations.
There are just two solutions:

1) Adjust your style of play (so far Flick wasn't willing to do that)

2) Make changes so you can at least get close to the required intensity

There are of course no magic tricks for point 2 but it'd help if Flick wouldn't ignore certain options and be a bit more straighforward in rewarding good performances. For example I don't understand why Hernandez was back on the bench for two games after he had been our best defender this season so far. I get that he prefers Davies as LB due to his offensive qualities but Davies also struggles this season and you could still use Hernandez as CB.
But I don't want to blame it too much on certain player choices, in the end it is also about reaching your players, making sure they are motivated. That's an area where you simply can't give any "advice" from the outside, it's something every coach has to manage in the daily work.
It should however be said that it's normal/understandable for a team to have times when you struggle so it's too early to "panic" but something definitely needs to be done about our defensive issues.

Pretty rich to hang the shitness of the Kovac era onto Thiago when during both Carlo's and most of all Kovac's time Thiago was literally the only player still providing regular top performances week in week out, carrying our sad sorry team to the Meisterschaft basically by himself, all the while Neuer, Müller, Boateng and so on were busy with their mid life crises.
I mean that's just more hyperbole. I just pointed out that you can't have it both ways, having Thiago be responsible for all that is good but give excuses for performances under Kovac who put a lot of trust in him (more than any coach before him, there was a reason why he was never used as pure CM before Kovac). So I don't get from where you get "regulat top performances week in week out". The paradox is actually that Thiago had his best season under Kovac while he struggled when we played better as a team under other coaches.
Overall it isn't about diminishing Thiago's contribution, he was obviously important last season but the same could be said for many players and some of them played a lot more than Thiago and had even more outstanding individuals performances.
That's why it's kind of crazy to suggest any problems now are down to Thiago's absence especially in games like vs Gladbach or Kiel or connect our overall defense issues to Thiago.
 
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Cheimoon

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There are just two solutions:

1) Adjust your style of play (so far Flick wasn't willing to do that)

2) Make changes so you can at least get close to the required intensity

There are of course no magic tricks for point 2 but it'd help if Flick wouldn't ignore certain options and be a bit more straighforward in rewarding good performances. For example I don't understand why Hernandez was back on the bench for two games after he had been our best defender this season so far. I get that he prefers Davies as LB due to his offensive qualities but Davies also struggles this season and you could still use Hernandez as CB.
But I don't want to blame it too much on certain player choices, in the end it is also about reaching your players, making sure they are motivated. That's an area where you simply can't give any "advice" from the outside, it's something every coach has to manage in the daily work.
It should however be said that it's normal/understandable for a team to have times when you struggle so it's too early to "panic" but something definitely needs to be done about our defensive issues.
I suppose it might also not help that you played the CL final, meaning that you had the shortest rest of everyone.
 

kaiser1

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So in your 'analysis' (if that's how you want to write that), what can Flick so to increase the intensity? People tend to blame players for any lack thereof, but I don't buy that. Creating intensity is part of a coach's squad matchday preparations.
That intensity cannot be kept given the lack of rest since Last June. I think Flick might need to adjust tactics and be less aggressive in pressing leaving acres of space in defence
 

kaiser1

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No, Thiago certainly wasn't the most valuable player. If you created a "ranking" it'd probably be Lewandowski, Neuer, Kimmich, Müller and THEN Thiago but last season you could even make an argument for players like Goretzka, Davies or Gnabry being more important.
May I remind you that Thiago wasn't even a regular starter when Bayern turned things around and that Thiago WAS around when things were complete chaos under Kovac.
That doesn't mean Thiago isn't a top class player but you are going over the top with your "analysis" here especially considering that Thiago simply isn't a leader on the pitch. He works his magic if the team functions as one unit, that's why he could show his full potential in the final CL stage but let's not forget that he had Goretzka at his side and Kimmich who was moved back to RB and was still the guy giving the assist that decided the CL final.

The problems in the current season are down to a lack of intensity, the same problem we had under Kovac (with Thiago). Flick's style of play needs that intensity and if we are talking about CM issues then it's that in the last 2-3 months we often had at least one of Kimmich/Goretzka missing. So in that regard Thiago's absence does hurt because we obviously don't have a backup that is as good as those two.
This is exactly how I remember Thiagos 7yr stay at Bayern he had an outstanding last 6 months which kind of atoned for his mediocre 6.5 seasons

Last season Neuer Lewy Kimmich Muller Gnabry were more important than Thiago. He would be around the Gretzka Davies range which was still very good
 

Cheimoon

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That intensity cannot be kept given the lack of rest since Last June. I think Flick might need to adjust tactics and be less aggressive in pressing leaving acres of space in defence
Yeah, that's what I mentioned in my follow-up post. Interesting challenge for Flick. Mostly for the CL though: given the inconsistency of the competition, you'll have to mess up pretty bad not to win the BL.
 

Champ

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Dortmund absolutely dominated that game, I bet the Mainz GK is still buzzing from his performance :lol:
Nothing you can do when a worldy is scored against you.
Dortmund for me look back to their best, some absolutely amazing passages of play yesterday, just were unlucky.
 

B. Munich

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Dortmund absolutely dominated that game, I bet the Mainz GK is still buzzing from his performance :lol:
Nothing you can do when a worldy is scored against you.
Dortmund for me look back to their best, some absolutely amazing passages of play yesterday, just were unlucky.
Still Mainz has hit the post twice and a Mainz player was one on one with Burki just 5 minutes from time.
Dortmund's goal was a gift from the Mainz defence as well. 2 serious mistakes in lead up to the equalizer.
In the second half Mainz had the better chances.
 

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Interesting game. Bayern have been semi-comfortable but Freiburg have threatened Bayern on more than a few occasions and should probably have scored with Sallai.
 

Acrobat7

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Interesting game. Bayern have been semi-comfortable but Freiburg have threatened Bayern on more than a few occasions and should probably have scored with Sallai.
I don’t really agree (or missed the Freiburg chance you’re talking about). Bayern could have had 2 penalties on top of their goal.
 

Acrobat7

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The first one which the ref went over to look at was a penalty. Sallai missed a sitter for Freiburg.
I don’t remember a sitter for Freiburg but - as mentioned - i could have missed it. Bayern has 60% possession, 13:3 shots and 6:0 corners. It is not a lucky lead.
 

Berbaclass

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I don’t remember a sitter for Freiburg but - as mentioned - i could have missed it. Bayern has 60% possession, 13:3 shots and 6:0 corners. It is not a lucky lead.
I didn’t say they were lucky. I said they were fairly comfortable but have been threatened a few times, which they have.

Most of Bayern’s efforts have been from distance.