Club Sale | It’s done!

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Mainoldo

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So ole was SAF's idea? Thank god that you don't deal in speculation.

Seriously mate, things started changing as soon as they came. Top players left and they were being replaced by the likes of valencia and obertan. Then SAF left, Gill followed and Woodward came in turning the CEO role from one who focused mostly to the financial side to one that engulfed everything. People close to Woodward were hired or promoted, experience and best in class were replaced with inexperienced people who were simply too grateful to complain while weird decision were being taken that made no football sense (ex jones). Meanwhile managers kept piling up all of whom lamenting about the intrusion and incompetence from the higher ups
What best in class. Martin Ferguson was one of our main scouts for years. David Moyes came in and couldnt believe how far behind we were as a structural football institution. Everton had a better set up than us. EVERTON. This was under Gill’s reign. Before hand let’s not mention how many times we failed to get players over the line from Ronaldinho to Kluivert, Salas, Zidane.

These are just service observations. Like it or not we were ran by a genius who didn’t need a best in class football structure to get the job done. Due to that we’ve had to invest a lot it getting up to speed with the rest.

Financially to keep competing at the top we can’t spread our funds to also ensure we have the best of everything else. Yes that is down to ownership. However it doesn’t really say anything about those who work under them. So people just assuming ETH is good and everyone else is crap are just being naive.

The fact you don’t believe the SAF and Ole thing is quite funny. Especially as you seem to believe everything negative about those who manage the sporting structure. So who do you think recommends the manager from Molde?
 

Mainoldo

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Last summer transfer window, where he failed to get the manager what he wanted/needed before the season started and we ended up dropping 6 points and overpaying for Antony.
Starting the season with a CF who wanted out and another who can't stay fit.
ETH doing a good job doesn't paper over his errors
Cool name me a well ran elite club let’s go through this.
 

Cassidy

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Yes I know. Berba said 'Yeah we kinda do with Brexit. Makes it much harder for us to buy directly from South America. Having a team like Braga would be brilliant.'
Still don't get it, must be me.
Post Brexit the work permit rules changed, not sure if it made it easier or harder though, but there was definitely a change
 

Telsim

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The leeches will reject the submitted bids and go for a third round to try and squeeze every last drop, if they even sell. This will drag on for at least another month. :boring:
 

mu4c_20le

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If I'm not mistaken what Castle is describing is the Red Bull model. United and PSG wouldn't purchase players from Braga but purchase players themselves and loan them to Braga. Basically a higher end version of the Liefering, RB Salzburg and RB Leipzig connection.
Sounds like just a feeder club. We should be able to set one up without the weird global domination network thingy, as we have always done in the past.
 

Cassidy

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Cool name me a well ran elite club let’s go through this.
Why - no need to move the argument.
You asked what he failed at and I told you because it's EXACTLY what he himself said they were not going to do last summer and it's EXACTLY what ended up happening.

The other issue under him was the Rangnick debacle. Still, maybe with time he will improve, you can't get everything right but lets not act like he hasn't been dropping the ball.

I won't even mentioned the issues with the women's team
 

Bosws87

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Sounds like just a feeder club. We should be able to set one up without the weird global domination network thingy, as we have always done in the past.
You can, but with the city football group about and others it’s gonna be a massive advantage owning 8+ clubs which you can siphon through talent.

So you join them or wait for uefa/fa to do something about it.
 

Cassidy

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If I'm not mistaken what Castle is describing is the Red Bull model. United and PSG wouldn't purchase players from Braga but purchase players themselves and loan them to Braga. Basically a higher end version of the Liefering, RB Salzburg and RB Leipzig connection.
Is he not describing the City football group model? Which he makes a direct comparison to?
 

Plant0x84

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I do like the idea of a multi-club model being used to bring on talented youth players. Same for Ineos with Nice and Lausanne. Would be great to send players on loan to a club we can be sure will look after them properly, and develope them in the right way. Presumably we would have access to youth prospects from those countries too which could benefit in getting to talents before the likes of Dortmund. :D
 

Mr Pigeon

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A lot of crap sources in this thread recently. Please read the title again.



In other news; what are the odds that this entire process isn't going to be completed before the end of the season? I feel like the deadline for that has already passed, as the handover would surely take longer than three months?
 

Big Ben Foster

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A lot is pointing towards this process reaching its climax in the coming week or two. A few thoughts.

What is happening in the process?
Overall, evaluating the value of MUFC is not hard, nor does it require a due diligence from a broader point of view. The Manchester United plc reports using the IFRS standard which is established by the EU for all companies listed on a regulated market. Besides, financing agreements have also been made available. While a bidder of course will want to perform its due diligence and verify key aspects of the club as well as taking part of the latest up to date financials -- both Ineos and the Qataris have for a long time been able to evaluate the target of this process.

The Raine Group has performed three rounds of bidding, first the indicative bid and then two de facto bids. These bids are made for the Glazers' shares of the club (more on that later). All -- three -- parties are advised by top advisers and are more or less on equal footing in these negotiations. There have been talks about the Glazers playing the bidders, threatening keep the club, and what not. Those aspects should perhaps not totally be disregarded -- but not far from it. If you engage JPM or Goldman Sachs or players like that for a multi-billion transaction -- you won't be pushed around in the negotiations. What is the point of a third (fourth) round of bidding? The next point is probably pointing at the highest bidder, and telling the other side that they will be out of the running in 24h if they do not counter that offer. After that, you should have a preferred bidder.

What remains after a preferred bidder is appointed?
Whomever buys the club needs to be approved by the PL. That process can be started before a takeover is executed.


Ultimately, buying the Glazers' shares can be done through a simple transaction note. There will be no meaningful reps and warranties given that it is a public transaction. The buyer will undertake to replace the Glazer siblings on the board, not much more. Hence, the club could potentially have a new owner within weeks.

But what about the remaining 31%? Well, it is here it gets a bit tricky -- and this is a topic that ultimately will depend on Cayman Island cooperate law. First of all, must you buy those shares if you buy the Glazers shares? No. In the UK and all of the EU, anyone acquiring more than 30% of the votes in a company must make a so called mandatory bid for the remaining shares. The reason for this is that anyone buying a share in a listed company should be able to assume that the company will be run in a way that is best for all shareholders. If someone comes in and buy a controlling share, the minority owners must be given an opportunity to exit their investment in light of the new circumstances. This is -- not -- the case on the Cayman Islands.

So why buy the remaining shares of Manchester United plc -- if you don't have to, and since you would controll the club anyway by just buying the Glazers' shares? That is a good question. There are no guarantee that Ineos for example would want to buy those shares. Why not invest that money into the club instead? There is however one big advantage of buying the minorities' shares. If you own all shares of a company, you can wheel 'nd deal with it anyway you want. Lets say you want to lift land owned by the club out of the club and develop it in a separate entity -- its just a little paper work if you own all shares. If there are 150,000 minority shareholders, you better make darn sure that you pay market value for any asset you transfer from the club to another company. And even if you do all you can -- you could still see some litigation. It is impossible to know how the parties would act, but from my view point it is natural to assume that the Qataris would want 100% of the shares while I don't quite see the upside for anyone with Ineos sucking up the shares listed at NYSE.

But anyway -- if you want to buy the minority shares listed at the NYSE -- how is it done? Well you cannot get each and every 150,000 (just picking a random number) minority owner to sell their shares to you. Hence there are mechanisms in place to enable taking a company private. As I understand it, we could either see (a) a public tender offer to the minority (someone sends out a press release and say 'If you want to sell your MUFC plc shares, fill out this form, and we will buy them'), and if bidder owns 90% of the shares after the tender offer, it gets the right to redeem the outstanding shares, or (b) through a take private merger. Given how majority owner friendly Cayman Island law is, I think (b) would be the method used. Ineos or the Qataris create a BidCo (Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV)). That BidCo proposes to merge with Manchester United plc. In the merger, the owner of the BidCo gets 100% of the shares in Manchester United plc and the current shareholders of MU plc gets 100% cash. Takes say a month or two to execute. If a minority shareholder in the club thinks the terms of the merger were worthless -- they can take it to court and ask for more pay. Some surely would. If you want to acquire 100% of the shares -- is it better to first acquire Glazers's 69% and then merge or does it make more sense to also acquire the Glazers' shares through a merger? This could impact the arguments of the minority owners going to court asking for more pay. I can't provide any input on if it would matter, but I would bet on that given how flexible Cayman Law is, it doesn't.

What happens to the debt?
As soon as someone takes control of the Glazers' shares of the club -- it will trigger the so called Change of control-clauses of the plc's debt agreements. This means that within stipulated time frames, that debt becomes immediately repayable. So in terms of the actual debt agreements, the Glazers debt will not survive a takeover. The buyer can either (a) pay back the debt, (b) refinance the debt in the name of the club, or (c) refinance the debt in a company higher up in the buyers' group. When Ineos say that they won't put any new debt on the Manchester United plc -- I think it would sound odd that they would engage JPM and GS to issue a bunch of new bonds in Manchester United plc. I think they would do that higher up in the Ineos group. But there is some uncertainty there.

The Qatari would probably cash the debt. I think the talk about Qataris only using "cash" is a bit irrelevant. Qatar's GDP to debt ratio is 40% which is low for a country. Ineos' debt ratio is probably a few times its turnover, which is normal/on the higher side for the average company, but not high for a company with a M&A strategy.

Who will win the bidding?
I want to add one word of caution here, if anyone is absolutely convinced that the Qataris will win the bidding. A group of people in Qatar is driving this project. Right? No matter what anyone says, its common sense that they don't have £5bn burning a hole in their wallet. The bid will be financed with funds which the royal family controls. Hence, someone is setting a budget for the bid. We don't know what that budget is. It could be 10bn. It could be 5bn. I don't think its far fetched to speculate on that someone gave the green light to the entire project -- as long as the price wasn't crazy. You can have 8bn, 5bn for the club and 3bn for the work after getting it. If they want 100% of the shares, and Ineos would settle for 69% -- Ineos wouldn't have to pay absurd money.

I have said from day 1 that the Qataris are the favorites. I would still bet on them if I had to bet, but I wouldn't bet the house on it.

What about Zilliacus?
The only way he has a shot is if he is fronting the Saudis.
Fantastic post, thank you for this
 

Mainoldo

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Why - no need to move the argument.
You asked what he failed at and I told you because it's EXACTLY what he himself said they were not going to do last summer and it's EXACTLY what ended up happening.

The other issue under him was the Rangnick debacle. Still, maybe with time he will improve, you can't get everything right but lets not act like he hasn't been dropping the ball.

I won't even mentioned the issues with the women's team
How can you drop the ball when you purchase Casemiro, RW, Eriksen, CB and a back up LB. All of which have integrated well..

Yes he’s made mistakes but it doesn’t also mean he’s done a bad job. I asked to name other clubs because all big clubs make mistakes. Man City have a £50m midfielder in Kalvin Phillips. He makes Fred look world class.
 

Cassidy

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How can you drop the ball when you purchase Casemiro, RW, Eriksen, CB and a back up LB. All of which have integrated well..

Yes he’s made mistakes but it doesn’t also mean he’s done a bad job. I asked to name other clubs because all big clubs make mistakes. Man City have a £50m midfielder in Kalvin Phillips. He makes Fred look world class.
The post was clear on how. City were not going through a summer with a new manager and 6+ first team players leaving.
We started the season unprepared
 

Skills

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Mbappe was a bargain retrospectively. Toothless shite like Antony costs £80m now - Mbappe was a coup and a half.

The most talented/influential attacker in the world is easily worth the type of money PSG paid for him.
 

JPRouve

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You're in France, so probably have a better idea than me, but I'm fairly sure that the rest of the football world doesn't see it that way. Blaming one man is an interesting strategy. I'm sure a fan of the Glazers would like to use Woodward in the same way.
I don't care about how the rest of the world see things if said world decide to ignore the majority of what has happened. How you see something isn't important, what is important is what actually happened. In what type of world does this starting team from 2013 isn't balanced:

--------------Ibrahimovic
Lavezzi---------------------Menez
----------Matuidi--Verratti
---------------- Motta
Maxwell--Silva--Alex-Jallet
-----------------Sirigu

The next version of that team was:

-----------------Ibrahimovic
Cavani---------------------------Moura
----------Matuidi----Verratti
------------------Motta
Maxwell-Thiago-Marquinhos-Jallet
-------------------GK

Neither of these teams are unbalanced, the backbone of these teams lasted the better part of 10 years with the inclusion of homegrown players like Rabiot or Kimpembe. The issue for PSG is that in 2016 and 2017 they lost key players that they failed to replace, those players were leaders in and out of the field, I'm talking about the likes of Thiago Motta, Matuidi, Maxwell and Ibrahimovic. Instead of focusing on replacing these key players the newly appointed DOF, Antero Enrique, decided to put everything on two players and he failed which is why he was sidelined after two years.

In reality there is nothing special about PSG, this type of things happen to all clubs, they build a solid core and then fail to have one ready to replace it. Since then PSG have improved the balance of the team but the hole that Antero dug was pretty deep.

Also an other mistake made in the quote that you shared is that PSG plans have always been the DOF's plan, that's why you can see a big difference between what Leonardo did when he joined in 2012 and what Antero Henrique or now Campos are doing, it's a fallacy to talk about PSG as if they were following an single overarching plan. In fact the biggest criticism of QSI is that they let DOFs and managers do what they want and if they fail they sack or don't extend them. In several cases it would have been better if they were like Bayern or Real Madrid's board and had a more hands-on approach, they will criticize the manager or DOF but not impose a direction.
 

JPRouve

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Is he not describing the City football group model? Which he makes a direct comparison to?
City don't really do what he describes, it was initially suspected but it's not what they do. They don't systematically purchase players to send them on loan and get them back which is what Red Bull does.
 

Cassidy

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City don't really do what he describes, it was initially suspected but it's not what they do. They don't systematically purchase players to send them on loan and get them back which is what Red Bull does.
Fair enough
 

Mainoldo

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The post was clear on how. City were not going through a summer with a new manager and 6+ first team players leaving.
We started the season unprepared
So was my response. I don’t care what they was going through they where unsuccessful in acquiring a CM just like Liverpool too. Who brought Arther. Feel free to tell me how many games he’s played.

But yet we want to through everything at our summer window to fill internet narratives. He could of done better but if he did any better maybe Real Madrid would be looking to snap
Him up at their DoF.
 

Cassidy

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So was my response. I don’t care what they was going through they where unsuccessful in acquiring a CM just like Liverpool too. Who brought Arther. Feel free to tell me how many games he’s played.
So your response amounts to whataboutism?
Or are you pretending there were not CMs who we could have signed before the season started and didn't?
 

Skills

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So based on that. Happy if they decide to sack the manager within that time too?
Who cares? Ten Hags a low level chump in the grand scheme of things.

The takeover and things that'll happen (such as investment into the stadium) etc will way, way out last a guy who's going to manage the clubs team for a few years.
 

cyberman

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Castles gave an example why I’m against Qatar. We literally become a super club, Madrid on steroids. The de facto super state in the de facto Super League
 

Cassidy

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Castles gave an example why I’m against Qatar. We literally become a super club, Madrid on steroids. The de facto super state in the de facto Super League
Whilst I have my own reservations, we were a super club prior to Roman coming to the PL, weren't we? At least in the PL anyway
 

JPRouve

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Castles gave an example why I’m against Qatar. We literally become a super club, Madrid on steroids. The de facto super state in the de facto Super League
On paper that's exactly what United currently are and have been for a long time. The only issue is extremely poor management since 2013.
 

Appletonred

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This could well be all done and dusted in a matter of weeks, and admittedly it is a mouth watering prospect, the opening of
the summer transfer window under Qatari ownership.
 

redNATION

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Castles gave an example why I’m against Qatar. We literally become a super club, Madrid on steroids. The de facto super state in the de facto Super League
If we had Reals management and leadership instead of incompetent Glazers and Woodward we’d have been as successful as Real over the last decade, we’ve actually spent more money than them.
 

devilish

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What best in class. Martin Ferguson was one of our main scouts for years. David Moyes came in and couldnt believe how far behind we were as a structural football institution. Everton had a better set up than us. EVERTON. This was under Gill’s reign. Before hand let’s not mention how many times we failed to get players over the line from Ronaldinho to Kluivert, Salas, Zidane.

These are just service observations. Like it or not we were ran by a genius who didn’t need a best in class football structure to get the job done. Due to that we’ve had to invest a lot it getting up to speed with the rest.

Financially to keep competing at the top we can’t spread our funds to also ensure we have the best of everything else. Yes that is down to ownership. However it doesn’t really say anything about those who work under them. So people just assuming ETH is good and everyone else is crap are just being naive.

The fact you don’t believe the SAF and Ole thing is quite funny. Especially as you seem to believe everything negative about those who manage the sporting structure. So who do you think recommends the manager from Molde?

Prior to the Glazers, Manchester United had one of the finest training grounds, academy and the stadium in the country. We would regularly sign the best young talent in the EPL and outside of it as well and we would spend top dollar for it. I remember the Italian journalists being absolutely disgusted at us spending 30m and 12m on Rooney and Ronaldo as those were silly money for 18 year olds. Sure we lacked DOFs (which tbf wasn't a trend that was that popular at the time) but our assistant manager could have easily be a manager himself. In fact most ended up managers or were managers before.

Then the Glazers came and the mentality shifted.

a- Players were being kept way past their expiry date to the point that Scholes had to do a Cincinnatus and come out of retirement to save us
b- We started replacing the likes of Queroz with Phelan
c- We grew obsessed with 'value' which lead to us replacing the likes of Ronaldo with Valencia
d- We refused to move with time (DOF, data analysts etc) which is a clear shift to what happened before when we were the pioneers in football. In fact Mclaren was signed by SAF because of his idea of installing multiple cameras in the stadium and in the training ground which gave the coaching staff far more data then they could collect with traditional means
e- the infrastructure was largely abandoned to its own device.

On top of that our ambitions shifted as well. While in the past our target was to win everything, we soon became quite satisfied if we ended top 4.

Don't take me wrong that SAF had his share of mistakes. His family and those within the inner circle came first which meant that Martin Ferguson became chief scout despite being sacked by his previous job, Fletcher was given a long term contract despite his career threatening illness, Gaz was begged in staying with United despite he himself admitting that he was finished and of course that damn horse which paved the way to the Glazers. Not to forget Moyes's appointment which SAF himself admitted that he wanted as his successor. However that doesn't justify that whenever United had the chance to bring the best in class we opted not to do so. At one point the situation grew so silly that we had people with no experience in their job across the board (Woodward had no previous experience as CEO, Murtough had no previous experience as DOF, Ole had never managed a top club before, Carrick and Mckenna had no previous experience as no 2 and Fletcher had no previous experience as technical director)

The least said about Moyes the better. I've met people who worked within United at the time and the passing joke was what the feck does Jimmy Lumsden do at United. That's because he had the tendency to walk around the training premises without talking to anyone only to lock himself in Moyes's office for an hour. There's a very valid reason why seasoned professionals like Rio, Vidic, Evra and RVP who had bled for the club ended up rebelling against Gollum.

Regarding Ole, I think that the story is quite simple really. Mou knew he messed up, he knew that he wasn't being backed, he wanted out but he wanted to be paid the reminder of his contract. Thus he created an impossible environment so he can get sacked. After that horrible experience we needed someone who could raise the team morale something Ole (whose probably the loveliest person ever to wear a United shirt) could do. The big mistake was not that of hiring Ole but of making him a permanent manager
 

devilish

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You're in France, so probably have a better idea than me, but I'm fairly sure that the rest of the football world doesn't see it that way. Blaming one man is an interesting strategy. I'm sure a fan of the Glazers would like to use Woodward in the same way.
I've been here since 2002 and trust me no one knows more about French football in here then @JPRouve and @kouroux.
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

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Castles gave an example why I’m against Qatar. We literally become a super club, Madrid on steroids. The de facto super state in the de facto Super League
Nah, we just need an owner that lets us spend the money that we generate anyway, whilst investing in the infrastructure (stadium, training facilities etc) that is long overdue. We’re not like some Man City or PSG being artificially pumped.
 

mu4c_20le

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If we had Reals management and leadership instead of incompetent Glazers and Woodward we’d have been as successful as Real over the last decade, we’ve actually spent more money than them.
Doubtful. They had Ronaldo, and management aside, like barca, they have the advantage of prestige. We would've needed better management and leadership to match them.

And it's a far cry to assume we'd be dominant just because of oil money, because it involves making the right signings, or you become PSG. There has been little to no indication on who they'd appoint, it's all been the same buzz words like best in class and leading this, leading that.
 

cyberman

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Whilst I have my own reservations, we were a super club prior to Roman coming to the PL, weren't we? At least in the PL anyway
Yeah but funnelling elite players up a high quality pyramid takes us up another level. In the next 10 years the money and standard of the EPL will be of the highest ever seen imo and to have the resources like this on top of this is basically cheating.
Posters joke but you are looking at the owners wanting to keep Mbappe within that pyramid. Hakimi (or another non scumbag example) and the like. Not only only that but you can park players elsewhere in preparation of coming to United. It’s two FFP budgets for one club.
Let’s say United are the crown jewel. You can stuff the squad with such quality that elite players could be displaced at United to be then shifted to PSG without fans thinking they’re the B team.
Real Madrid are literally in the news today for a report in Marca about not being able to afford any quality reinforcements this summer. The market is wide open for this. Who can afford these mega players anymore if an oil club is involved and then you have the fact oil clubs don’t do business with each other so once they’re in ala Mbappe they’re all the way in.
 

Chief123

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Absolutely no idea if this has been posted already. If it has, shoot me.

 

JPRouve

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Yeah but funnelling elite players up a high quality pyramid takes us up another level. In the next 10 years the money and standard of the EPL will be of the highest ever seen imo and to have the resources like this on top of this is basically cheating.
Posters joke but you are looking at the owners wanting to keep Mbappe within that pyramid. Hakimi (or another non scumbag example) and the like. Not only only that but you can park players elsewhere in preparation of coming to United. It’s two FFP budgets for one club.
Let’s say United are the crown jewel. You can stuff the squad with such quality that elite players could be displaced at United to be then shifted to PSG without fans thinking they’re the B team.
Real Madrid are literally in the news today for a report in Marca about not being able to afford any quality reinforcements this summer. The market is wide open for this. Who can afford these mega players anymore if an oil club is involved and then you have the fact oil clubs don’t do business with each other so once they’re in ala Mbappe they’re all the way in.
If I'm being honest, I think that it's nonsense. Whenever there is the mention of a group of club being part of the same portfolio there is a journalist making up the theory that Castle shared. In reality there is only one club that operates in a way close to that and even they are limited by UEFA independent sports management rules.

The only thing that you can do systematically is loan players and it will be young players. Because we need to keep in mind that players need to agree to loans and transfers, it needs to benefit them, especially when you are talking about high profile players.
 

FlawlessThaw

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Castles gave an example why I’m against Qatar. We literally become a super club, Madrid on steroids. The de facto super state in the de facto Super League
We're already a super club. You're just advocating for us to not have our hands tied behind our back as we have done under the Glazers.

In any case the Premier League is too big for a team to just simply spend its way to the title.
 
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