Hargreaves vs. Carrick, Feadingseagulls vs. Noodle, Chief (Bayern Fan!) vs. Logic

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Trust me, I'm not clueless about football.

I'm not one of these kids that just supports the best team because they win, expects them to win 10-0 every match, and expects the players to play like they do on Fifa or PES. Believe me, I hate those kids, as they give the ones of us that do know what they are talking about, a bad name.

I know far more about football then most grown men, and have proved so on numerous occasions, and not just on the Cafe, but in real life also.

You may think that because I'm 15 you can patronise me and dismiss my views because I am young, but that's just foolish, as you know that I'm very wise when it comes to talking football. You may not openly admit this, but you know it to be true.

Rant Over.

I wish I was patronising you but I'm not. Your not inferior to me in anyway that I should dare to! That is why I can't understand how you can display a maturity of knowledge about the sport then came out and support neandarthalic madness. Thus, I simply mostly dismiss your views on certain issues, mainly because they are mostly stupid, baseless and not based in reality at all! On top being based on personal feelings. Like your description of the role of a DM being a clear example of such folly. Things which you consistently champion when they are hallmarks of utter ignorance on the subject at hand.

So it's case of you either being naturally stupid or your age is the problem. Thus, since most teenagers at times believe they know, when they really know not, I put it down to your age. For I'm certain no one Earth can be naturally stupid. Especially you, since I've seen you talk sense many times before. But definitely not when it comes to anything connected to Hargreaves.


Unfortunately, I'm not very subtle or polite as a poster. Hence, if I think you are bullshitting or being a feck wit I'll leave you in no doubt. I will also give you due praise when you deserve it. Even when you are Neanderthal like a Ekeke. Which thankfully your not.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

He's better defensively as well

Hargreaves runs around a lot, that does not make him a good defender.

Carrick is no where near as good as Hargreaves defensively. Nor will he ever be.

 

[kf]

His engine allows him to match them all the way across the pitch (as they pass the ball across) as they move forward. He acts like a one man counter attack repellent. Obviously he'll get a bit of help from the full back but by in large his running buys time for the rest of our mids to get back and get in shape

This is what confuses me about those who insist that he's been playing well for United. His game actually relies on his energy and stamina and at the moment he clearly isn't fully fit. It's bound to have an effect on his game. So whilst I can accept the argument that maybe we haven't seen him at his best due to injury and lack of games, I can't accept that he's been playing consistently well. He hasn't. He may be good next season, I'll wait and see, but he's not been good so far this season, far from it.

 

[GusHiddink]

You were also broughtb up watching United win feck all in Europe, with only one streaky cup run to show for nearly 2 decades of domestic domination.

Do you think the two might be connected?

Are you sure you are a utd fan??


The reason i ask is thats such a strange statement to make.


We all know there were a number of factors such as the 3 foreigner rule that impacted us from reflecting our true strength in europe. I could go on but should i really have to?

And to cap it all off our movement away from our values has yielded minimal results at the sake of performances. Id say we havent been true to our selves since about 2000/01! Thats a fair amount of time winning "feck all" no??

 

[GusHiddink]

This is what confuses me about those who insist that he's been playing well for United. His game actually relies on his energy and stamina and at the moment he clearly isn't fully fit. It's bound to have an effect on his game. So whilst I can accept the argument that maybe we haven't seen him at his best due to injury and lack of games, I can't accept that he's been playing consistently well. He hasn't. He may be good next season, I'll wait and see, but he's not been good so far this season, far from it.

No one can argue he's been good for utd because quite frankly the evidence is few and far between. similarly you cant say he's been bad really.

For the money paid you'd want someone to come in and have an impact but through a combination of factors including injury its not happened for him. Thus those blindly saying he's done well are looking to reinforce pre concieved ideas.

Im really stuck for a judgement....myself. Ask me at the end of the season and ill have a better idea

 

[Julian Denny]

The fact remains that nobody knows how good or even vital OH is in the United set up until he plays regularly. So far he's made fleeting appearances and has had no real opportunity to set up any real understanding with players such as Carrick and Scholes. I don't know whether this has been due to on going injury problems, midfield rotation to keep everyone happy or simply tactics - ie we haven't played that many games where a defensive midfielder is essential. There is no doubt those games are going to come thick and fast now in which I see OH's value as a holding midfielder becoming apparent, allowing Carrick and particularly Scholes to express themselves more going forward.

Unless there is an injury issue, hopefully we'll see OH as a regular from now on.

 

[kf]

Ask me at the end of the season and ill have a better idea

I think the end of the season will be too soon. Wouldn't surprise me if he didn't start many more games. Fletcher has done much better than him when selected. I think he needs the summer off, a good preseason and to be injury free. Then we'll see.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

.... Achievememt in team sports is not always a good indicator for individual pedigree.

If that was the case you wouldn't be the first to champion Carrick's cause because he won the first trophy of his career at United last season. Find another excuse to hide behind.

 

[GusHiddink]

To be fair, blatantly average players have won trophies for their respective teams. Achievememt in team sports is not always a good indicator for individual pedigree.

indeed...look at the state of the liverpool side that won the champions league,


biscan, traore...sure there's more buy canny think.

 

[Sultan]

If that was the case you wouldn't be the first to champion Carrick's cause because he won the first trophy of his career at United last season. Find another excuse to hide behind.

He was part of a team that did so well last season. He's in better form at this moment in time, and offers a lot more to the team than Hargreaves.

These are facts no sane person can deny.

Disclaimer: Niether Carrick or Hargreaves are related to me.

 

[reddevilcanada]

If that was the case you wouldn't be the first to champion Carrick's cause because he won the first trophy of his career at United last season. Find another excuse to hide behind.

Carrick was an integral part of the team that won us the title, got us to the FA cup finals and the semi's of the CL last season.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It also says this



But according to the Chief, his job isn't to help the back 4 and try and prevent us from conceding a goal, so Wiki must be wrong.

A defensive midfielder's main job is to win the ball back in midfield. In addition to stopping the opposition from playing and keeping their main attacking midfielder under wraps, to enable the defence behind him to only have to deal with strikers and wingers. Which is the defensive job in midfield.
Hence the role being described as one that "shields the back four".

That has nothing to dor with stopping or helping a team from conceding goals. That has always been and will always be the job of the entire back four and the keeper alone. Not anyone in midfield. Unless you are using a 3rd center back/defender in midfield like Makelele.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It was a joke

.....

So was mine. I guess my humour must be as bad as yours. If you didn't see that

 

[Trigg]

So, any chance of a summary? Or does the topic title pretty much explain everything I need to know?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Carrick was an integral part of the team that won us the title, got us to the FA cup finals and the semi's of the CL last season.

Meanwhile Hargreaves was an integral part of almost a decade of sustained Bayern success. So if you dare to disregard that, then Carrick's one season of wonder is not something to write home about. Especially since, if one looks deeper, he wasn't the most crucial factor in us winning the league or doing so well last year. After all.

 

[Trigg]

Meanwhile Hargreaves was an integral part of almost a decade of sustained Bayern success. So if you dare to disregard that, then Carrick's one season of wonder is not something to write home about. Especially since, if one looks deeper, he wasn't the most crucial factor in us winning the league or doing so well last year. After all.

His and Scholes' partnership was crucial though.

 

[Cornell]

The one thing i've noticed about Hargreaves defending is he always seems to be chasing after someone's who has gone past him rather than making an interception or tackling someone coming at him.

Reactive defending, rather than pro-active defending.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

He was part of a team that did so well last season. He's in better form at this moment in time, and offers a lot more to the team than Hargreaves.

These are facts no sane person can deny.

Hargreaves was part of 8 years of mostly sustained success at Bayern Munich. He is better player than Carrick. That is why he was making a name for himself at Bayern, in the champions league, while Carrick was still in only The Championship. He has shown this in the past and will do so in the future

to quote you direcly:

" These are facts no sane person can deny. "

Disclaimer: Niether Carrick or Hargreaves are related to me.

You have no valid proof of this

 

[Wibble]

You admit you were wrong about Hargreaves?
I will use your own words to say " I doubt that very much".

You are not the type who would. You will hide behind an excuse like you always wished him success because he plays for Manchester United

Which is such a poor lie its laughable. You clearly just hate the fella.

As per usual you are being an utter knob. Sultan has put forward his view and has then said that he is prepared to be proven wrong.

You then accuse him of lying because he doesn't agree with you.

Pull your neck in before it gets chopped off.

 

[Sultan]

Reactive defending, rather than pro-active defending.

Quote of the thread.

Perfectly sums up Hargreaves this season.

 

[ralphie88]

I wish I was patronising you but I'm not...

Well if that isn't patronising I don't know what is.

For someone who claims to be such a football expert, you make an awful lot of mistakes (e.g. Zidane winning the UEFA at Bordeaux).

Hargreaves was part of 8 years of mostly sustained success at Bayern Munich. He is better player than Carrick. That is why he was making a name for himself at Bayern, in the champions league, while Carrick was still in only The Championship.

For someone who claims everyone who disagrees with you is a fool you manage to continually contradict yourself. About 10 pages up from here you are banging on about how Bayern weren't in Milan's league and no-one expected you to get through (hence enabling you to defend Hargreaves's performance). You can't have it both ways.

Finally, for someone who claims to be mature, you appear to have an awful lot of usernames and spend a lot of time logging in and out to agree yourself on an internet messageboard with people you will probably never even meet.

I have no idea how many times you have posted on this subject (as either the Chief or someone else) but when you admitted that you were a Bayern fan (whether United are your joint first team or your "second" team) things became clear. The fact is that you watched Hargreaves at Bayern and in the Bundesliga he was impressive by all accounts. You were giddy with excitement when you saw he was being transfered to your other favourite team and desperately wanted him to do well. But can't you see you're judging him not on his performances for United - which have been very mediocre - but on his performances for Bayern (in a much slower and weaker league)?

Most people aren't Hargreaves 'haters'. Most people aren't claiming Hargreaves is 'shit'. But what appears to be the general consensus in both the stands and on the messageboards is that Hargreaves has been disappointing so far and on current form should not be starting ahead of Anderson, Carrick, Scholes and Fletcher. Now there may be good reasons for this - fitness, lack of a consistent midfield partner etc., or he may just be needing to get up to the pace of the PL (as happened with Vidic and Evra).

Hopefully with a good pre-season behind him Hargreaves will start showing the form that you saw at Bayern. Believe me, as someone who follows the reds home and away, there's nothing I'd like more. And then you can come back and say "I told you so". But claiming that black is white - and so vociferously - is just watering down your other arguments about what you think he will bring to the team in the future. Because everyone (both those who watch him live - which you never have - and those who just watch on TV) can see with their own eyes that this season he has not been of Manchester United quality.

 

[Sultan]

You have no valid proof of this

We're different colours.

Unless you of course take the relationship back to Adam. Then they are most likely to be my cousins.

 

[sincher]

Good post there ralphie.

Prepare to be told you are a liar.

 

[Trigg]

Meanwhile Hargreaves was an integral part of almost a decade of sustained Bayern success. So if you dare to disregard that, then Carrick's one season of wonder is not something to write home about. Especially since, if one looks deeper, he wasn't the most crucial factor in us winning the league or doing so well last year. After all.

I like Hargreaves, I think he's a good player.

But what he did Bayern doesn't really matter does it? Bayern and Man Utd are two different teams, he has to play well for us, now. Carrick provided stability for us last year and most people accept he was a contributing factor to the way we played and the progress we made in each of the competitions. Therefore, with Hargreaves lack of form at the moment and Carrick pretty much in form and his contribution last year most people would prefer Carrick to start ahead of him.

Which is why alot of people prefer Carrick to Hargreaves and think he's the better player. Its up to Hargreaves to prove those people wrong and show his true value to the team - which I'm sure he will.

 

[sincher]

I hope he doesn't show his valve. That would be a bit disgusting.

 

[kf]

The fact is that you watched Hargreaves at Bayern and in the Bundesliga he was impressive by all accounts. You were giddy with excitement when you saw he was being transfered to your other favourite team and desperately wanted him to do well. But can't you see you're judging him not on his performances for United - which have been very mediocre - but on his performances for Bayern (in a much slower and weaker league).

Most people aren't Hargreaves 'haters'. Most people aren't claiming Hargreaves is 'shit'. But what appears to be the general consensus in both the stands and on the messageboards is that Hargreaves has been disappointing so far and on current form should not be starting ahead of Anderson, Carrick, Scholes and Fletcher. Now there may be good reasons for this - fitness, lack of a consistent midfield partner etc., or he may just be needing to get up to the pace of the PL (as happened with Vidic and Evra).

Hopefully with a good pre-season behind him Hargreaves will start showing the form that you saw at Bayern. Believe me, as someone who follows the reds home and away, there's nothing I'd like more. And then you can come back and say "I told you so". But claiming that black is white - and so vociferously - is just watering down your other arguments about what you think he will bring to the team in the future. Because everyone (both those who watch him live - which you never have - and those who just watch on TV) can see with their own eyes that this season he has not been of Manchester United quality.

Precisely.

I hope he doesn't show his valve. That would be a bit disgusting.

 

[spinoza]

I hope he doesn't show his valve. That would be a bit disgusting.

 

[reddevilcanada]

Meanwhile Hargreaves was an integral part of almost a decade of sustained Bayern success. So if you dare to disregard that, then Carrick's one season of wonder is not something to write home about. Especially since, if one looks deeper, he wasn't the most crucial factor in us winning the league or doing so well last year. After all.

And Klerberson was an integral part of the team that won Brazil their fifth world cup!

Those mean feck all when they play for United, what matters is how they perform for us! To you it must be different however, seeing as you're a Bayern fan & United are your second team

Carrick was crucial to our success and fluid attacking football last season, I really wish I can say the same thing about Hargreaves by the end of this season.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

We're different colours.

Unless you of course take the relationship back to Adam. Then they are most likely to be my cousins.

Good point

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

His and Scholes' partnership was crucial though.

I never said it wasn't. It wasn't the most crucial though. That doesn't make it any less important either. Which is the exact same case with Hargreaves' contribution to Bayern's success. Which is all I'm pointing out.

 

[VP]

For someone who claims everyone who disagrees with you is a fool you manage to continually contradict yourself. About 10 pages up from here you are banging on about how Bayern weren't in Milan's league and no-one expected you to get through (hence enabling you to defend Hargreaves's performance). You can't have it both ways.

Finally, for someone who claims to be mature, you appear to have an awful lot of usernames and spend a lot of time logging in and out to agree yourself on an internet messageboard with people you will probably never even meet.

I have no idea how many times you have posted on this subject (as either the Chief or someone else) but when you admitted that you were a Bayern fan (whether United are your joint first team or your "second" team) things became clear. The fact is that you watched Hargreaves at Bayern and in the Bundesliga he was impressive by all accounts. You were giddy with excitement when you saw he was being transfered to your other favourite team and desperately wanted him to do well. But can't you see you're judging him not on his performances for United - which have been very mediocre - but on his performances for Bayern (in a much slower and weaker league)?

Most people aren't Hargreaves 'haters'. Most people aren't claiming Hargreaves is 'shit'. But what appears to be the general consensus in both the stands and on the messageboards is that Hargreaves has been disappointing so far and on current form should not be starting ahead of Anderson, Carrick, Scholes and Fletcher. Now there may be good reasons for this - fitness, lack of a consistent midfield partner etc., or he may just be needing to get up to the pace of the PL (as happened with Vidic and Evra).

Hopefully with a good pre-season behind him Hargreaves will start showing the form that you saw at Bayern. Believe me, as someone who follows the reds home and away, there's nothing I'd like more. And then you can come back and say "I told you so". But claiming that black is white - and so vociferously - is just watering down your other arguments about what you think he will bring to the team in the future. Because everyone (both those who watch him live - which you never have - and those who just watch on TV) can see with their own eyes that this season he has not been of Manchester United quality.

Good post. Just about sums it up.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Still going lads?
Do threads still collapse when they get to about 200 pages, or was that fixed?

 

[Sam]

Kin 'ell, Sam. You've always struck me as a nice young lad but you've got a bit of a high opinion of yourself.

You're definitely wise beyond your years but I there's a lot to be said for the wisdom that comes with age, no matter how much you think you know it all already. God knows, when I was 20 I thought I knew everything there was to know but that was 15 years ago and, looking back, I was just a jumped up little shit with a vastly over-inflated opinion of himself.

Not saying, for one moment, that the same will apply to you one day but I think you should show a bit more respect for opinions formed by people who have been playing/watching the game for decades.

Yeah sorry about that rant. I just got really pissed off when I saw that the Chief called me a 'freaking buffoon', and then used my age against me, so I thought, feck it, why should I sit back and take that abuse.

And of course I respect others, especially people much older than me, but considering that the Chief has shown little or no respect and just sworn and abused anyone who he disagrees with, I don't feel why I should show him any.

A defensive midfielder's main job is to win the ball back in midfield. In addition to stopping the opposition from playing and keeping their main attacking midfielder under wraps

Which as a result, will help to stop us conceding goals!

Christ, it's not fecking rocket science.

 

[Sam]

For someone who claims everyone who disagrees with you is a fool you manage to continually contradict yourself. About 10 pages up from here you are banging on about how Bayern weren't in Milan's league and no-one expected you to get through (hence enabling you to defend Hargreaves's performance). You can't have it both ways.

Finally, for someone who claims to be mature, you appear to have an awful lot of usernames and spend a lot of time logging in and out to agree yourself on an internet messageboard with people you will probably never even meet.

I have no idea how many times you have posted on this subject (as either the Chief or someone else) but when you admitted that you were a Bayern fan (whether United are your joint first team or your "second" team) things became clear. The fact is that you watched Hargreaves at Bayern and in the Bundesliga he was impressive by all accounts. You were giddy with excitement when you saw he was being transfered to your other favourite team and desperately wanted him to do well. But can't you see you're judging him not on his performances for United - which have been very mediocre - but on his performances for Bayern (in a much slower and weaker league)?

Most people aren't Hargreaves 'haters'. Most people aren't claiming Hargreaves is 'shit'. But what appears to be the general consensus in both the stands and on the messageboards is that Hargreaves has been disappointing so far and on current form should not be starting ahead of Anderson, Carrick, Scholes and Fletcher. Now there may be good reasons for this - fitness, lack of a consistent midfield partner etc., or he may just be needing to get up to the pace of the PL (as happened with Vidic and Evra).

Hopefully with a good pre-season behind him Hargreaves will start showing the form that you saw at Bayern. Believe me, as someone who follows the reds home and away, there's nothing I'd like more. And then you can come back and say "I told you so". But claiming that black is white - and so vociferously - is just watering down your other arguments about what you think he will bring to the team in the future. Because everyone (both those who watch him live - which you never have - and those who just watch on TV) can see with their own eyes that this season he has not been of Manchester United quality.

Brilliant post Ralphie, pretty much sums the whole thing up.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

As per usual you are being an utter knob. Sultan has put forward his view and has then said that he is prepared to be proven wrong.

You then accuse him of lying because he doesn't agree with you.

It's not a matter of agreeing with me or opinion either. As per usual you always miss the point. Hargreaves' reputation is written in stone and is iron clad! Anyone claiming he has been average/rubbish in his entire career and contributed to Bayern's success ala David May to United's, is just lying. That's the bottom line.

Furthermore they saying they doubt he ever will be good for United sums up their stance on him. So I don't see why they should be allowed to hide behind the notion that "they are prepared to be proven wrong" when they are so cock sure they wont be.

 

[Sam]

Reactive defending, rather than pro-active defending.

Nail on the Head.

If Hargreaves was in the dictionary, it would simply say...

Hargreaves (proper noun) : Reactive defending, rather than pro-active defending.

 

[Frosty]

I think Carrick should play on Sunday.

 

[Wonder Pigeon]

And it goes on and on and on and on......

 

[Sir A1ex]

Oh feck it, I may as well post my actual 2-pennies worth!

In my book, he may have slightly disappointed, but not really. I've been very impressed with his ability to shield the back 4, always appearing at the right time and getting the tackle in. Which is what I wanted from him.
His distribution has been shit, and not he's added anythign going forwards, but that's not what I expected from him.
Would he make my starting XI? No. I reckon he does his job pretty well, and I'm confident he will only continue to improve and do it very well. The thing is, it's not a job that we really want anybody to be doing most of the time. For me, he's somebody we need to use in specific situations, ie trying to shut up shop and defend a lead.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

And Klerberson was an integral part of the team that won Brazil their fifth world cup!

So one fecking tournament win for Brazil equals 8 years of success at the highest level at Bayern?

That actually equates more favourably with Carrick's one trophy win of last year than anything else.

Those mean feck all when they play for United, what matters is how they perform for us!

That's utter bullshit and you know it.

To you it must be different however, seeing as you're a Bayern fan & United are your second team

Carrick was crucial to our success and fluid attacking football last season,

The return of Scholes and Giggs to top form and the effectiveness of Neville and Evra on each flank were far more crucial factors in our playing fluid football.

As were Ronaldo's coming of age, Vidic and Evra proving their worth, Rio & Vidic forming one of the most outstanding Center back pairings in world football and the contribution of Saha, as Ruud replacement in our first 11, far more crucial factors in our wining the title than Carrick ever was.

All this however doesn't make Carrick's contribution rubbish or unimportant.

,

I really wish I can say the same thing about Hargreaves by the end of this season.

Hargreaves will have to score 40 yard goals, and beat 5 men in every match for the likes of you to ever praise him. Becuse you never judge him by fair standards.