As has James...
Has Ole given up on next season already?
- Thread starter Ranchero
- Start date
Doesn't seem like he is giving up at all, he seems very confident and hungry. I love how positive, realistic and down to earth he is. It is an important trait to control your emotions and stay cold in pressured situations. The amount of critique and pressure he is getting right now, it is assuring that he seems to keep a cool head. If he would have given off some worrying vibes right now I would be depressive because he is going to get a year or two here. I'm hopeful he'll impress us again next season, as he did in his initial period. It is still possible he'll get more out of this squad than what we maybe should expect. Not talking about winning the league of course.
He hasn't given up he is a realist. He has worked with this squad for a few months now and knows it's not good enough to win the PL something we have known for a few years now. He needs a few windows signing the right players to close the gap and all we can do now close the gap. Once we do that then we start competiting for the PL.
The simple passing of time will not fix the structural problem at the club which can be summed up with the one word - Glazers. Until that is fixed, the rest will stay the same.
Have backed Ole since day one but his comments about lower teams catching us is unacceptable for a club of Utd's size and wealth.
The bare minimum for any manager here is top 2, or be sacked.
We need to be ruthless with dross players, managers and CEO's and stop accepting mediocrity
The bare minimum for any manager here is top 2, or be sacked.
We need to be ruthless with dross players, managers and CEO's and stop accepting mediocrity
He could've gone for "specifically optimistic" (in which case those who have already decided he's useless would've called him delusional) or "vaguely optimistic" (probably his best bet with regard to not triggering certain people).
He's gone for "realistic", though. What he says is plain enough: it's a big job, and right now we have to focus on closing the gap, whilst making sure we don't slip further. It's not "defeatist" at all, and he's not saying that we have to accept the likes of Leicester and Wolves overtaking us, ffs.
He's gone for "realistic", though. What he says is plain enough: it's a big job, and right now we have to focus on closing the gap, whilst making sure we don't slip further. It's not "defeatist" at all, and he's not saying that we have to accept the likes of Leicester and Wolves overtaking us, ffs.
The good ol days of jones smailing young?
we need to be realisiltic peeps. not in a month of sundays are we going to win league next season we will be lucky to put in some sort of challenge. fergie left 6 years ago we are on our 4th permanent manager and our squad is the worse its ever been. our players have talent yes but they dont give a feck they are there for a wage, there seems to be a couple "leaders" who are killing the whole vibe. it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that when Ole arrived pogba played his best stuff so did everyone else. when pogba "downed tools" so is everyone else. mourinho is right he is a virus
No he's not.
He's just being over-realistic = realistic to the fullest..
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Where the heck did the "pre-Huddersfield quotes" at OP came from?
I couldn't find it here.
Huddersfield press conference : https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/man-utd-press-conference-highlights-16219086
This is the post-Huddersfield comments.
Prefer that than a delusional manager.
He's just being over-realistic = realistic to the fullest..
..while still being open and positive to get close to winning the league.Ole said:
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Where the heck did the "pre-Huddersfield quotes" at OP came from? I couldn't find it here.
Huddersfield press conference : https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/man-utd-press-conference-highlights-16219086
This is the post-Huddersfield comments.
Still sounds ambitious, while maintaining being realistic and aware what's going on.Ole said:
Prefer that than a delusional manager.
I've just watched Ole's pre-match presser against Cardiff (uncut version), and I can say that it is quite clear that he knows exactly what needs to be done to get us back to the top. Every player was given a fitness programme to do while on holidays. Those who are unfit, will not travel to the Downunder for pre-season tour. The coaching team had lots of transfer-related meetings with analysts, scouts and the Board, so they all know what kind of players this team needs. I am now actually looking forward to next season. Of course Ole could flop, but something inside of me is telling me that he will do whatever it takes and more to get us back to the top. If all the players, coaching, recruitment and training staffas well as the Board are on the same page, then I believe the fans are in for a positive shock come August. And yes, if we can win the EL again, let's do it.
hope he really has an idea of what his team should be and like next season.
his persistent on playing Young, Jones, Rashford when they deserve to be dropped irritates me at this moment, although as a United fan you'll try to back Ole as long as possible.
the first 3 months almost every decision he made looks fantastic. the last 2 however has been shambolic.
he talks about giving youth a chance every press conference yet Chong gets 10 minutes here and there, Angel Gomes maybe 3 minutes in 3 months and Mason Greenwood, supposedly our young star is nowhere to be seen after the PSG game. i hope when he meant youngster, he is not referring to Rashford or McTominay because if that is what he thinks then obviously he is clueless.
he also talks about being ruthless with underperforming players and at this moment yes i understand he cant go and chop all 10 deadwoods because we'll left with 13 players in the first team. this summer is the right time to see whether he really can do what he says.
i'll accept a top 4 finish and maybe a great run in one of the cup competition, for a start. but really Ole needs to do what he says in his presses.
his persistent on playing Young, Jones, Rashford when they deserve to be dropped irritates me at this moment, although as a United fan you'll try to back Ole as long as possible.
the first 3 months almost every decision he made looks fantastic. the last 2 however has been shambolic.
he talks about giving youth a chance every press conference yet Chong gets 10 minutes here and there, Angel Gomes maybe 3 minutes in 3 months and Mason Greenwood, supposedly our young star is nowhere to be seen after the PSG game. i hope when he meant youngster, he is not referring to Rashford or McTominay because if that is what he thinks then obviously he is clueless.
he also talks about being ruthless with underperforming players and at this moment yes i understand he cant go and chop all 10 deadwoods because we'll left with 13 players in the first team. this summer is the right time to see whether he really can do what he says.
i'll accept a top 4 finish and maybe a great run in one of the cup competition, for a start. but really Ole needs to do what he says in his presses.
This forum is a joke at times.
Had he come out and said we will challenge you would all be jumping on him come next January when it is obvious we are not upto the task.
To get back to the top Will. Take. Time!
We will not challenge for the title for a good 3/4 years, even longer if we keep chopping and changing. Let Ole do this with the experience of Phelan behind him and the ability to call on SAF when required I have faith he will get this right, but only if the fans back the feck off.
Had he come out and said we will challenge you would all be jumping on him come next January when it is obvious we are not upto the task.
To get back to the top Will. Take. Time!
We will not challenge for the title for a good 3/4 years, even longer if we keep chopping and changing. Let Ole do this with the experience of Phelan behind him and the ability to call on SAF when required I have faith he will get this right, but only if the fans back the feck off.
Those expecting him to come out and proclaim we’ll be challenging next season need their head checked. We are terrible. Closer to Everton and Wolves than we are Liverpool and City.
For me, this is the perfect thing to say. Rashford (I think) came out recently and said they don’t criticise each other. Madness. Solskjaer here has effectively told them (not us) that they aren’t good enough...without going full Mourinho and calling players out.
And why should they be free from criticism. It just proves that our squad is unbelievably soft. As much as we dislike the guy, look at Suarez after the Liverpool game. He came straight out and suggested the whole team would be calling each other out.
Valencia and Herrera gone. Long may the cull continue
For me, this is the perfect thing to say. Rashford (I think) came out recently and said they don’t criticise each other. Madness. Solskjaer here has effectively told them (not us) that they aren’t good enough...without going full Mourinho and calling players out.
And why should they be free from criticism. It just proves that our squad is unbelievably soft. As much as we dislike the guy, look at Suarez after the Liverpool game. He came straight out and suggested the whole team would be calling each other out.
Valencia and Herrera gone. Long may the cull continue
We should write off next season in terms of getting a league title. Absolute no chance of that happening.
Every Summer we always try and skip some crucial steps in our rebuild by just throwing some money at an area and hope it sticks.
It hasn’t worked. We need a slow rebuild over 2/3 years - this team is nowhere close to winning a title.
Every Summer we always try and skip some crucial steps in our rebuild by just throwing some money at an area and hope it sticks.
It hasn’t worked. We need a slow rebuild over 2/3 years - this team is nowhere close to winning a title.
I think Ole understands the challenge ahead more than most
we haven't been able to sell Rojo or Darmian so I wonder how much luck we will have with the 5/6 misfits we need to shift - removing Sanchez would pay the wages of 4 young prospects after all
this is a proper tear it down and build again rebuild- it was telling that Fellaini was first out the door - Ole has already said he wants young, fast, hungry technical players
I dont think buying players will be the main issue....selling the ones we have is the hard part
annoyingly the players youd want to keep... De Gea, Pogba, Rashford and Herrera are thr ones with contracts that have expired/expiring
we haven't been able to sell Rojo or Darmian so I wonder how much luck we will have with the 5/6 misfits we need to shift - removing Sanchez would pay the wages of 4 young prospects after all
this is a proper tear it down and build again rebuild- it was telling that Fellaini was first out the door - Ole has already said he wants young, fast, hungry technical players
I dont think buying players will be the main issue....selling the ones we have is the hard part
annoyingly the players youd want to keep... De Gea, Pogba, Rashford and Herrera are thr ones with contracts that have expired/expiring
We’ve already started the clearout. It’s been pretty substantial already. Mata/Fellaini/Valencia and Herrera all seem to definitely be going and that is before a ball has been kicked.
agreed.... we did well to sell Fellaini and the other 3 were easy given they are out of contract
it won't be so easy to shift Sanchez, Matic, Jones, Rojo, Damian or Lukaku who surely dont fit the bill imo
Rojo and Darmian will go this summer. Matic and Jones will become backups. Which is pretty much where they should be.
Very true. Any United transition should simply mean a season not winning the title nothing else. We don’t lack funds and we obviously don’t lack the ability to pay wages. Yes we might not be able to attract Neymar without champions league football but we never have attracted those players until we started talking about ridiculous wages. So your right get the calibre of players we use to attract (Young with fire in there belly to be elite) and challenge for second. I don’t see how Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal have a better summer transfer window than us if we do this. 2 of them can’t spend big if they wanted to and the other hopefully will be banned from doing so.
You have to understand that this season it takes 95+ points to win the league.. We won't be a 95+ points team next season, yet. So if it takes as much next season also for the trophy, we won't compete for it. Although I fully see us be a 80+ points team next season and how far it takes, we'll see.
I think it's worth keeping hold of Matic and maybe Rojo or Darmain. For me the priority is Sanchez.
However we all have to remember the transfer window isn't open yet. Things will happen once it is. The good thing is that Ole is busy trying to get players the very day it does open.
Well I hope he didn't mean that we won't be challenging for title. Bringing in the right players and getting rid of the bad ones should bring us much closer than we are this season.So the main thing to be gleaned from manager Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's latest utterances is that challenging for the Premier League title next season would be "a miraculous season".
Then there was his pre-Huddersfield top six warning, saying a title challenge is "not realistic" next term - "you don't suddenly catch 27 points in one season" and then adding: "You've got Leicester, Everton, Watford, probably Newcastle, you've got clubs that want to chase us."
It would be easy to draw lazy comparisons to the negativity of David Moyes. Except Ole is not a negative person, albeit like Moyes he has not won anything as a manager. However, remember unlike Moyes he was a winner as a player. Big time.
His demeanour lately has been a smile, a nod and a wink, as if the Norwegian knows his targets. He has his game plan of bringing in younger players "who will stay at the club" coupled with bigger names (are there going to be any) many of which he hopes to get over the line, it seems before the start of July. Good luck on that.
It is good news in terms of stability to get Phelan in, and it seems clear that the idea of a director of football is still not something that is imminent, which means, unfortunately we have Ed Woodward still orchestrating things, and that might be a problem.
On the positive side, we are at last seem to be going about our work in terms of next season early, unlike the shambles of previous season. The big question is are the players we are bringing in going to be good enough for a club like United, when top players will be looking at even Spurs before United for next season.
There are players who are not the biggest stars who, I think, would walk into our team now. Diop of West Ham, for one. Doucoure of Watford, for two. And they would not be overpriced for the talent like Maguire would be.
I think he sees next season as transitional, that appears to be the road he is going down. That there will be big changes and we will see a different, perhaps less experienced United. If we cannot attract as many of the big name players now, we have to look at players who could develop into stars and stay.
Ole says Ronaldo and Rooney were not ready made stars when they arrived at Old Trafford. But neither did they stay.
So are we going to remain a feeder club for Real?
I am on the fence with it all. Ole HAS to be given a chance now to implement his strategy with Phelan. The question is that will he be given the tools to do the job. And has he got enough about him to be the manager we all want him to be?
I would have been a lot happier if the long touted director of football actually materialised and that Ed Woodward's hands were off the football side. But no. That has not happened. Why?
Ole has said that the strategy has effectively been him and Phelan discussing with Woodward.
Sunday will effectively be the start of it all, with a couple of our young players starting against what is a meaningless match against Cardiff. My money is on Chong, for sure and Mason Greenwood.
It may be meaningless in terms of the Prem, however, it may well speak volumes about the direction of the club going forward under Ole and Phelan.
I may have my doubts as all United fans will to a greater or lesser extent, but we have to give this new stage in United's history a chance.
With minimum changes (3 Players) Liverpool turned a 25 point margin around this season. So it can be done by bringing in the right players. ( 5/6 needed here this summer). We have the funds and players wanting to leave will bring more money for transfers or swap deals.
He's not lowering expectations or changing the goal! He's being realistic and letting the supporters know that we need to rebuild before we can challenge for the PL title again.
We need to be realistic about this, and he's doing a good job about it!
Whether you all like it or not, next season is a transition season, suck it up boys and girls.
I completely agree, I've not been on this forum long but the knee-jerk responses and panics from people here are a little distasteful. Ole has to play this sensibly. He should not be making bold statements which could make him look stupid.
This squad achieved exactly their level over a 38 game season. There are no excuses. Effort and attitude are as important in a player's make-up as being able to run or pass. Squad cohesion is as important as shooting or heading. With the same squad again next season, it would be insanity to expect a different result. Without signings and clearouts, without knowing those things, he is in no position to promise great things.
He is absolutely right that incremental gains are the way forward. There is no point thinking about the title when you can't get into the Top 4. He also recognises how well his team played when the pressure was off, such as when Mourinho's awful reign ended, and how clearly they choked whenever the slightest bit of mental pressure was put on them. So I think there's a large part of that as well, protecting the players from fans' expectations. Because this squad, these players, are not capable of meeting the highest expectations.
It's all very well saying Man Utd need top 2 bare minimum, but it's fantasy land when looking on the ground at the squad, and the lack of talent and/or heart in the players stepping foot on the pitch each week. That isn't (currently) Ole's fault, he hasn't signed a player yet.
Love how every manager taking over and we talk about this is a transition period. Yes it is the change of manager being a big part of that.
Thing is, with the money we have, should be able to build a side to challenge for the title within two summers....so yes you are right......but
We have had about seven summers and for me only one summer have we actually improved the side by any margin and that led to our most successful one.
One thing for ,e with Ole, first few weeks he was talking about challenging and now he is talking about progress. Of course being on a winning run and now on a losing one, that is understandable.
If we were to sign 7/8 proper good players, and a leader or two along with clearing out 10+, which we could do without a huge net spend, we could be there challenging next season, not winning but being in the mix.
We wont though, we will sign 3/4 and a youngster and lose probably the same and 2/3 of the 5 in and out wont be the right ones.....hence still having pretty much the same needs next summer....its what we have done every fricking season even including the end of Fergusons reign, just his amazing man management and the magic of RVP squeezed us over the line in his last year
Don’t know if it has been mentioned but looks like Liverpool will have made a 36 point gain on us, compared to last season. Nobody saw that coming. People always imagine every new season is going to be a continuation of the last. N
Anyone that actually watched the two teams play last year could see a major swing coming.
Ok, so let's summarise where we seem to agree and then where we seem to disagree...Understood your point before and the situation is not comparable.
Fergie never needed Worlds best at every position to build successful teams but he did have great to very good then few average players unless you're telling me our great teams consisted of a striker (who couldn't control the ball, couldn't run with the ball/ couldn't pass), Wingers (who couldn't shoot/cross), Midfielders (who couldn't pass, play under pressure) Defence (Stam/Bruce/Rio/Vidic to Smalling/jones/Victor/Young...hmmm, lacked composure, couldn't pass, shat them self under pressure) then Fergie was better than god.
"we have seen what the current squad is capable of when they put their collective minds to it. If the players delivered that same level of commitment over the course of a 38 game season, we would absolutely be in with a shout of winning the title." (from your original post) << Even Fergie wouldn't have been able to beat city's 90+ points total, with our current squad and you think our squad of mediocre players could perform over the course of the season because Fergie did it when he had some great players followed by some very good players then few average players compared to our current mediocre players bar 3/4 good players.
Most of our good players would be considered mediocre/Decent players in Fergie's successful teams and they'd only play small number of games in which consistency can be easy to come but over the 38 games its the Talented players (Ronaldo/Rooney/VDS/Rio/Vidic/Scholes/Giggs not Anderson/Gibson/Saha) who will determine success or failure and at the moment our current squad is filled with Mediocre/Decent players IMO. What we saw earlier was our mediocre players performing over a certain number of games then completely falling off, if they didn't fall off then they wouldn't be considered mediocre players and sadly we have too many of those an not many quality players who can consistently deliver over 38 games.
Next season unless we add quality to our back line/midfield and striker/RW position (), it will be the same level of consistency as this season where we'll play good for a while then completely fall off as our so called talented players aren't that good and our mediocre players will run out of steam, which is to be expected as they're not good enough and thats Regardless of who is managing them unless you're telling me city/pool have mediocre players bringing them success over the course of a season and not their better players.
When someone says "number of areas" it usually mean 3 or 4 and the players I listed included more than 3 or 4. Its nearly more than half the first team at the moment. oh and I didn't miss that just replied according to your post but to you "number of areas" means more than half of our team.
Where we seem to agree....
First, I think we both agree that Sir Alex Ferguson was an exceptional manager, able to achieve consistently high levels of performance out of his teams, whilst at the same time motivating players to perform at and often beyond their potential. I totally agree with your eulogy about Sir Alex. We can both agree on that.
Second, I think we both agree that the current United side are currently performing below their potential. The evidence of that is the fact that in the 12 Premier League games following Ole's appointment, United won 32 out of 36 points (better than either City or Liverpool over the same period). This compares to 25 out of 36 points in Jose's last 12 games in charge. I think we both agree that it was Ole's ability to get the best out of those players (the same ones that Jose couldn't motivate) that led to his full time appointment as Manchester United manager. I think we can agree on that?
Finally, I think we also both agree that the United side needs to be strengthened and in order to do that, there are players that need to be shipped out. In a previous post on this forum, see link below, (post #103) I clearly named six players (not three or four as you suggest) who need to be shown the door at United. But all in all, I think we can both agree that there are half a dozen players or more that should be shown the door.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/for...end-of-the-tunnel.447270/page-3#post-24101979
Where we seem to disagree....
Firstly, I completely disagree that Alex Ferguson could not have produced consistent performances from this side. Everything about Sir Alex's record was about his ability to get more from less and make good players even better. It was the very hallmark of his competence and managerial skill, it was his stock in trade. Under Sir Alex, United players knew one thing, which is that they had to respect the badge. Sir Alex would have had absolutely no truck with the preening, sulking arrogance that has been on show over the past 10 months. Of course he would have got the current side to perform consistently. Whether that would have been enough to win the title is another point, but they certainly would not be languishing 30 points behind City. When has that ever happened to a side managed by Sir Alex?
Second, you suggest that the United players are not better than their current performances. I completely disagree. If what you suggest were true how did that dramatic turnaround in performance during Ole's first 12 games come about? Yes, new managers often get a bounce as players raise their game, but 32 out of 36 points (out-performing City and Liverpool), setting records, beating Paris St Germain along the way, scoring an average of more than 2 goals a game and conceding an average of less than a goal. You think that was just a bounce do you? Don't make me laugh. Many of those players are way, way better than their current performances, they are just not performing to their potential.
Third, whilst we agree that having a good number of quality players significantly increases a team's prospects of competing for the Premier League, it is clearly not a pre-requisite. The most recent example of this is Leicester City. By any objective measure, Leicester City were an average group of players, who through hard work, physicality, effective counter-attacking and an unshakeable belief managed to achieve the impossible over a 38 game season. Perhaps with the possible exceptions of Jamie Vardy and Ngolo Kante, no player in that Leicester title winning side would have made the starting 11 of any side in the then 'big six'. I would add that the 81 points with which Leicester won the title in 2015/16 is better than United achieved in the title winning seasons of 1996/97, 1998/99, 2000/01 and 2010/11.
Finally, I think you believe that quality will somehow deliver consistency (see the first sentence of your second to last paragraph). So you seriously believe that by themselves quality players will deliver consistent outcomes? Really? Do you believe that Juan Sebastian Veron was a quality player at Lazio? Well he was a failure at Manchester United. What about Wilfred Zaha? Was he a quality player at Crystal Palace? Well he was a failure at United as well. What about Alexis Sanchez? Do you believe that he was a quality player at Arsenal? Enough said. The point is that quality does not, has not and by itself can never deliver consistency, not over a third of a season, half season or a whole season. If you think that just because Ole needs to bring quality into the side, that by itself will be enough, then you are kidding yourself.
If 'quality' or a big reputation were enough by itself, Lukaku who arrived for c£75m would be scoring 20 plus goals a season (something he has not achieved since he arrived), Alexis Sanchez, who we captured under the nose of Manchester City and who we are paying £400k per week, would be one of the first names on the team sheet and Paul Pogba, who we bought for c£90m, would be leading the Premier League table in assists from midfield instead of reverting back to the inconsistent performances he delivered under Jose.
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When Moyes took over, he headed straight off to a disastrous pre-season tour of the far east. The games were terrible, the conditions were far too hot, there were far too many miles covered etc, etc. Moyes looked like a bright-red frightened rabbit throughout. I am sure it was wonderful in terms of shirt sales and facebook likes but it was utterly useless in terms of preparation for the next season.
Mourhino put his foot down and insisted on pre-seasons at facilities he was familiar with and with less travel so that he could concentrate on the pre-season.
So this season, what do we do? We put the team on a 20 hour flight to Perth, then up to Singapore then off to Shanghai. It is as if Ed wants to maximise their air miles.
Ole will do what he can with the resources he has but let's face it, so long as our managers are hamstrung by Ed, the Glazers and their cash generation machine we are not going to be able to make much progress.
Mourhino put his foot down and insisted on pre-seasons at facilities he was familiar with and with less travel so that he could concentrate on the pre-season.
So this season, what do we do? We put the team on a 20 hour flight to Perth, then up to Singapore then off to Shanghai. It is as if Ed wants to maximise their air miles.
Ole will do what he can with the resources he has but let's face it, so long as our managers are hamstrung by Ed, the Glazers and their cash generation machine we are not going to be able to make much progress.
I don't think the transfers in and the pre season are going to be the problem this season. I think we are going to have an awful lot of departures and players wanting out who are forced to stay. Seems like we're opening the floodgates. Possible departures:
Herrera
Valencia
De Gea
Pogba
Sanchez
Lukaku
Mata
Pereira
Rojo
Martial
Some we want rid of but there's an awful lot of first teamers in there we might need to replace before we even think about upgrading positions.
Thanks for the correction, always thought it was Mao! That's the trouble when you're getting on in years, remember the quote but not who said it or wrote it.
Even at my age you learn something everyday Thanks.
You saw that coming? Didn’t meet anyone else that did. Hindsight. Easy.
Any major swings for next season?
I agree that there will probably be a lot of player 'churn' which will be disruptive but my point is that they should optimise the things that they can control such as the pre-season regime.
I think that most people buy-in to the idea that after years of 'zombie football' fitness is one of our problems.
It is in pre-season that you put in place the core fitness for the season and you can't do that on intercontinental flights.
I accept that we may have deadwood around but nonetheless, it is still important for those who are remaining and for the youth players. Assuming we have made some signings by then, preseason is also important for team building.
My overall point is that what Ole thinks or wants makes no difference whilst we have the current management/ownership structure above him
Did you not read the reports on here last year about how poor our play was for much of the season and how we limped to so many victories.
Liverpool were playing far better but were inconsistent but anyone could see that the were on the up.
We spent another 70 million in the summer which improved us not one iota.
Ole needs to push the board too. If he says we should be challenging we will spent 40m this summer
Mao probably copied it anyway.
After klopp building his team for three (?) seasons which resulted in a much better team than we currently have. It still took two very expensive signings and an awful lot of luck this season for them to get close.
United and Ole have the unenviable task of building foundations not just on the pitch but off it as well. It will take more than a season to do that. United fans need to temper their expectations accordingly and, no, that is not accepting mediocrity as some on here like to claim.
Enough. I have had enough.
No longer can we excuse Ole for one of the worst periods of form in our clubs history.
No longer can we excuse Ole for one of the worst periods of form in our clubs history.