Its like day and night in terms of players and thats down to Mou.....the rest he needs to address and he will.
Have we significantly improved since we got rid of LVG?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Considering money spent? No not really.
I hated LvG’s style of play but it’s hard to argue Mourinho’s is much better, we play like you’d expect Stoke to play although we’ve spent 8 billion in the transfer market.
Meh it’s really hard to pick out positives or praise with this current squad because there’s little to appreciate. We’re second in the league but it means nothing when City had the title won in December, we won the Europa last season which was ok but it just masked our piss poor league run which ends in a 6th place finish.
I’m a bit miffed at what’s happening these days, we seem to have no real plan on transfers except for spending big, we’re not signing any prospects instead we’re just investing in an aging squad, everything we do from style of play to players bought seems mediocre.
Bottom line is it better than LvG...yes but that’s hardly surprising given the players we have now compared to 2 years ago, the improvements should be greater.
I hated LvG’s style of play but it’s hard to argue Mourinho’s is much better, we play like you’d expect Stoke to play although we’ve spent 8 billion in the transfer market.
Meh it’s really hard to pick out positives or praise with this current squad because there’s little to appreciate. We’re second in the league but it means nothing when City had the title won in December, we won the Europa last season which was ok but it just masked our piss poor league run which ends in a 6th place finish.
I’m a bit miffed at what’s happening these days, we seem to have no real plan on transfers except for spending big, we’re not signing any prospects instead we’re just investing in an aging squad, everything we do from style of play to players bought seems mediocre.
Bottom line is it better than LvG...yes but that’s hardly surprising given the players we have now compared to 2 years ago, the improvements should be greater.
This money spent idea has to stop.....we couldn't but Gareth Barry for less than 20m......so it's a completely different playing field for us. "considering how many players we have bought" is a much fairer way of thinking....
You are a fan who seems to need us finishing 6th for 3/4 seasons to be appreciative of the progression.....
When you spend the cash we have and delivered so little it’s going to be talked about ,no doubt about that get used to it. We have a 89m player playing like a shit Garath Barry at the moment, it’s good you mentioned him.
We are 2nd and we have been 6th in recent seasons. The clubs in between have spent also, they have continuity, teams raise their game when United come to town, we are going through a bad patch so your words have more meaning right now....yes Pogs is no where near his early season form....but we have him at the club..which was a major coup at the time and in time, we can hopefully turn his form around....God Pogba and Sanchez...there was a time not long ago where I'd smile at just the thought.....
Not wanted rather accepted. My memory may be serving me wrong here but at least on the forums there was less outrage with his hiring than when we got dumped by Sevilla. I recall a lot of the sympathizing and regurgitation of Sir Alex’s “stand by your manager”
I was willing to stand by him I admit......what SAF said...went...for me....don't hate on me.
I do get what your saying there is a glimmer of light and the fact we’re signing high profile players is good but they aren’t producing on the pitch which is really worrying going forward, if you can’t get Pogba and Sanchez playing well then does it matter who we sign? add Ronaldo to the squad and he’d struggle because of the way we set up.
Put Modric and Verrati in the midfield would it stop us hoofing balls from the defence at Lukaku and then sitting with 10 men on the edge of our box for 70 minutes every game? maybe I’m just a moaning cnut but I’m just miffed by the whole setup.
Ok we’re second but it feels less significant when City are 40 points clear and have the league won in January, we’ve not put in a title challenge all season so second or fourth really isn’t a big deal at this stage in the grand scheme of things.
He’s struggled all season to try and fit Martial and Rashford into the side having them both battle it out for the left wing role....then he adds another player that plays the same position in Sanchez....so now 3 of our best attacking players are all trying to fight for 1 spot whilst our right hand side is struggling with either Mata or Lingard, again it’s just feking clueless management that leaves me wondering what the feck is going on.
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Anyone who thinks we havent improved is having a laugh. Remember when our strikers would struggle to get 5 touches a match. Our play is more direct, we score more goals, we look better defensively. The funny thing about LVG was he played a possession style but the moment we were pressed we couldnt play through it and went long to Fellaini. At least Jose knows what he wants. I think Jose has next year to prove what he is made off. If we buy a better defence we might start to look better in attack.
I don't think we lump it long as much as people think and Mou teams of the past certainly didn't hoof it long all that much. He plays with big strikers which kind of attracts that notion mind. Points wise its a massive improvement...we need to raise it again next season to challenge....we will certainly have the players next season....because he's great at getting them in....he just needs to get it all working together. Easily said but there are fewer better than him in the game at doing just that.
Hindsight is 20/20, right?
I think the message from Sir Alex is a fair one, so long as it's a better than competent manager. Such is Jose and he's already shown that. Perhaps instead of lamenting the Moyes decision I should be more encouraging and patient in my appraisal of Jose.
Not only have we improved since lvg but so have Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool and City.
Back in the CL after season 1 and being reasonably comfortable in second after season 2 is significant progress given the competition in England.
Sevilla is still fkin annoying and there's definitely a debate to be had about our style but anyone suggesting we're not a vastly improved team is being disingenuous imho
Back in the CL after season 1 and being reasonably comfortable in second after season 2 is significant progress given the competition in England.
Sevilla is still fkin annoying and there's definitely a debate to be had about our style but anyone suggesting we're not a vastly improved team is being disingenuous imho
You cannot be snide like that. Remember how SAF was appointed for United?I hope this is sarcasm?
Nicky Butt and Ryan Giggs at the helm? fecking hell
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...-manager-30-years-ago-on-6-november-1986.aspx
We need to take a leap of faith. He's certainly better than Moyes.
Since when is better than Moyes something to boat about?
He's managed four club games. Four. There's nothing to suggest he's a good manager or indeed even a bad manager. We know nothing about his managerial credentials whatsoever.
Posted this the last time one of these threads cropped up only a month ago. It possibly still applies now...i cant be bothered to check, but it just highlights how absurd the idea we havent improved is.
The memes/vines are shite these days.
Some topkek back then.
Some topkek back then.
Just a few stats to highlight our improvement/non improvement over the past few years:
2014/2015:
52% win ratio
23% defeat
1.61 goals scored (per game)
1 conceded (per game)
+0.61 goal difference (per game)
2015/2016:
53% win ratio
24% defeat
1.47 goals per game
0.95 conceded
+0.52 goal difference per game
2016/2017:
58% win
14% defeat
1.64 goals per game
0.73 conceded per game
+0.91 goal difference per game
2017/2018 (so far):
69% win
19% defeat
1.92 goals per game
0.73 conceded per game
+1.19 goal difference per game
These stats are for all gammes in all competitions. What this shows you is that with LVG, there was virtuallly no improvement from one season to the next, and in fact if anything we performed slightly worse in his second year. Then with Jose, there is an immediate and heavily significant improvement in his first season, and again this season, with only a few games to go, there's a massive improvement in terms of how often we win games, and goals scored, and no real decline in any area.
For comparison. Here is Ferguson's last season:
2012/2013:
66% win
19% defeat
2.1 goals per game
1.2 conceded
+0.9 goal difference per game
So this season is the first time since Sir Allex retired, that we have actually performed comparatively to what you would expect from a Sir Alex Manchester United team. In fact, Jose's stats are better in every area apart from goals scored. If we win our remaining games we will also be only 3 points off our points tally for Ferguson's last season, in what you can argue is now a more competitive league.
What I don't get here then is the constant jibes about Jose being past it, or that the game has passed him by, etc. What we have is Jose Mouriho doing what Jose Mourinho has always done, and just being unlucky to come up against a really strong City side. The only legitimate complaint is the boring football and "meh" approach to games, but again what I don't get, is that this is something that's been true of Jose ever since he first managed Chelsea, so it's something that was obvious would come with the package. Yet when Ferguson retired literally everyone on here was pining for Jose, and evidentally he's still at worst, almost as effective now as he was then.
2014/2015:
52% win ratio
23% defeat
1.61 goals scored (per game)
1 conceded (per game)
+0.61 goal difference (per game)
2015/2016:
53% win ratio
24% defeat
1.47 goals per game
0.95 conceded
+0.52 goal difference per game
2016/2017:
58% win
14% defeat
1.64 goals per game
0.73 conceded per game
+0.91 goal difference per game
2017/2018 (so far):
69% win
19% defeat
1.92 goals per game
0.73 conceded per game
+1.19 goal difference per game
These stats are for all gammes in all competitions. What this shows you is that with LVG, there was virtuallly no improvement from one season to the next, and in fact if anything we performed slightly worse in his second year. Then with Jose, there is an immediate and heavily significant improvement in his first season, and again this season, with only a few games to go, there's a massive improvement in terms of how often we win games, and goals scored, and no real decline in any area.
For comparison. Here is Ferguson's last season:
2012/2013:
66% win
19% defeat
2.1 goals per game
1.2 conceded
+0.9 goal difference per game
So this season is the first time since Sir Allex retired, that we have actually performed comparatively to what you would expect from a Sir Alex Manchester United team. In fact, Jose's stats are better in every area apart from goals scored. If we win our remaining games we will also be only 3 points off our points tally for Ferguson's last season, in what you can argue is now a more competitive league.
What I don't get here then is the constant jibes about Jose being past it, or that the game has passed him by, etc. What we have is Jose Mouriho doing what Jose Mourinho has always done, and just being unlucky to come up against a really strong City side. The only legitimate complaint is the boring football and "meh" approach to games, but again what I don't get, is that this is something that's been true of Jose ever since he first managed Chelsea, so it's something that was obvious would come with the package. Yet when Ferguson retired literally everyone on here was pining for Jose, and evidentally he's still at worst, almost as effective now as he was then.
Great post noodle.
Great info. Bit weird how we've upped our goals per game ratio while keeping our goals conceded to the same level, yet somehow have managed to lose more games this season, but that's football.
Jose knows what he's doing, and I can't wait to see us kick on again next season.
Jose knows what he's doing, and I can't wait to see us kick on again next season.
I like the percentage, 69%. Beautiful.
Also shows you how the club is improving (especially result wise).
Also shows you how the club is improving (especially result wise).
It’s a relatively small sample size (just over 100 games) but he’s got the best win ratio of any United manager.
If he gets to 200 and still has a similar ratio it’s safe to say he’s done alright.
If he gets to 200 and still has a similar ratio it’s safe to say he’s done alright.
Yeah it looks a bit odd but it's probably explained by all those drawn home games last season. We only lost 4 league game all last season I think, which is weirdly low for a team finishing 6th
At the highest level, meaning mainly the Champions League in its knock-out phases. At least that's where i base my criticism on. I believe it's evident that football tactics, in general, have been steadily shifting in the last decade away from Mourinho's core principles. All the more, we see managers creating football sides which aim to be confident on the ball and play their own game. All the more, we see midfield setups which revolve around two #8's with creative and organizing skills. All the more, we see football sides incorporating (some kind of) active pressing tactics. It's literally the only thing at which Klopp excels and look where it's taken him to (biggest overachiever in the world of football recently). There are examples, of course, with Atleti being the most obvious one but even they are aggressive and urgent when defending in their own third. Finally, people look at City, Barca or Real Madrid and they see starting lineups where attacking/creative skills are prioritized for 6 or 7/10 outfield positions. Even Heynckes, the other day, tried to turn the tie around with a midfield that consisted of Thiago, Tolisso and James. Let's not kid ourselves here, we'll never see anything like that from Mourinho.
This, of course, doesn't mean that Jose can't create a title-winning United side. He's an elite manager (he's earned that) and with that come high-profile jobs and huge budgets. And the league is not a sprint but a marathon. Moreover, it's not the confrontations between the title challengers but the consistency, the persistence and the winning mentality against the rest of the league that often decides where the title is going to go. This, Mourinho can offer. We can see it in the stats you posted above (good post, by the way), we are slowly but steadily moving towards becoming proper contenders again. Earlier in the season, i posted on this thread that we're on course to gather 80+ points for the first time in the post-Ferguson era which is the bare minimum for a title challenge in England and i argued that this is an important thing no matter how well City are doing.
I think we've done relatively well considering the circumstances. For a team that missed its most creative player for a huge chunk of the season and then had trouble fitting him in the side, for a team that played with makeshift CB pairings throughout the season and for a team that took very little from its FBs in the final third (which is the norm nowadays), the best league finish in 5 years is certainly something to build upon.
Ouch... that hurt my head. "All the more", Atletico have made it to two CL finals and a EL final in the past 5 years with a Mourinho-esque manager/tactic.
As i said, they are the exception that proves the rule and not the norm of how football is played at the highest level in 2018.
All the more, there is no "norm".
The CL winners since 2010 tell a different story.
No one can be honest and say that we haven't improved. It's no secret that Mourinho is not my cup of tea as a manager, but not recognizing that we actually made some improvement would e a false statement.
This. League table doesn't lie, and nor does the trophy cabinet.
Inter - Mourinho side
Chelsea - certainly not the kind of side you were describing
Bayern - a hybrid side if anything, could do absolutely anything. Were not a pressing side like Klopp, were nothing like a Pep side, could counter attack at pace. Just a top top side.
Aside from that, you're only left with 2 sides ffs.
"the norm".What exactly do you think "exception that proves the rule" means?
If you think that Bayern under Heynckes or Guardiola played anything even close to Mourinho's tactics, we have nothing left to discuss. In 2013 they won the damn thing because they steamrolled their competition, not because they played with 10 men behind the ball.Inter - Mourinho side
Chelsea - certainly not the kind of side you were describing
Bayern - a hybrid side if anything, could do absolutely anything. Were not a pressing side like Klopp, were nothing like a Pep side, could counter attack at pace. Just a top top side.
Aside from that, you're only left with 2 sides ffs.
And why the green smiley about the the "only" two teams. Doesn't the scale of their success account for anything? Barca are considered to be one of the best sides in the history of the sport and Real Madrid are about to play their 4th final in 5 seasons. Any reactive side with similar success during the same period?
Why don't you enlighten me?
Ahh, so it's Mourinho tactics > everything else. Because Heynckes and Guardiola couldn't be more different ffs.
Ok, right
Did Heynckes instruct Bayern to play reactive football?Ahh, so it's Mourinho tactics > everything else. Because Heynckes and Guardiola couldn't be more different ffs.
Ok, right
I understand all of that. I'm not sure there's enough basis to judge Jose in that respect. As United manager anyway. He's had one knockout tie, and lost. Last season he won the only European competition we were in, so in balance that's not too bad. Though when you look back at his second spell at Chelsea, there is something to suggest he's lost his touch when it comes to Europe.
I don't think it's specifically the tactics that are the problem though, or that things have passed him by. I just think he's doing things differently to how he did in the past and has become too cautious. Instead of sending a team out to play on the break, he sends a team out to just kill the tie completely and hope they nick a winner.
So I don't think it's that football has moved on from this or that type of play, because it never really does. Juventus got to the final last year playing counter attacking/non pressing football. Althletico and Juventus have both also featured in finals before that. Real and Barcelona have generally won, but they have/had better players than anyone else.
If you take the big picture with Jose, the improvement is obvious. The criticism of the playing style is also clearly valid, but it's nothing new. The Seville game is the biggest black mark, due mainly to the nature of how it came about, I think...but even with that you have to also take it in hand with the fact that 3-4 years ago, we wouldn't have been a good enough side to even expect us to beat Seville.
Another way of looking at it, is that one of the two teams in the CL final, we've played twice this season, beaten comfortably once and drawn with the other, whilst also being very comfortably ahead of them in the league. Klopp's over achieving tactics seem to hit a dead end if he comes up against the wrong opponents.
ffs man, it's over. You're judging your idea of current successful football tactics on "Mourinho v everyone" which is ridiculous.
And then you conveniently just want us to completely disregard Atletico Madrid.
Noods makes a great post above, I think it's fair to say, the sides with the best players tend to win the CL.
The jury is still out, of course. I'm not arguing that he can't do it. I'm just saying that i understand why some posters on here (some notable ones too) believe that we should be building our side towards a different direction.
Just a small note though: Juventus are more than comfortable with the ball at their feet and their passing is crisp and accurate. They almost turned the tie around in Madrid mainly because they enjoyed several periods in which they had the initiative. They didn't ust sit back and hope for the best. Maybe the fact that they're forced to play on the front foot because of their superior quality against the rest of the Serie A plays a part in this.
I don't have huge issues with Mourinho's playing style. I can live with his tactics, if he's going to set United again on the right track again. Where we disagree is that he's being overly cautious because he's trying different things. You see, the tempo of our games has been one of our biggest weaknesses throughout the season. And for a transition-based manager, this is a potential problem because his kind lives and breathes for quick ball movement. Two things of notice here: It's become way more difficult to control the tempo of the game nowadays because most good football teams are set to dominate possession or to press the hell out of you (at this point football tactics have changed since Jose was the hottest name in the managerial world), so Mou's last two CL exits (with Chelsea against PSG with a man up and a scoreline in his favour) can cause a bit of concern. But if he's trying to build a team more confident in possession, i can tell you that he won't achieve it with the likes of Matic, Herrera, Fellaini and McTominay or by struggling to fit his most skilled players, like Pogba and Martial (even Alexis is struggling to adopt) in his system.
I believe these are points for discussion whether you like Mourinho or not.
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Again, why the green smileys? We disagree, there's no point in mocking another person's views. After all, you laughed at me for mentioning three sides that have dominated the football world in the last decade while you mention one (Atleti, which i admire) and the most underserved winners in the last 20 years or so.ffs man, it's over. You're judging your idea of current successful football tactics on "Mourinho v everyone" which is ridiculous.
And then you conveniently just want us to completely disregard Atletico Madrid.
Noods makes a great post above, I think it's fair to say, the sides with the best players tend to win the CL.
I'm not judging anything on the basis of Jose vs the world. This is a Mourinho thread, we discuss Mourinho. I already mentioned that he's done a more than decent job. Check my posts earlier on this very thread to see what i wrote about him when half of this site was spewing garbage against him. And i already mentioned in my initial post that he's an elite manager. This doesn't mean that he's absolved of any criticism. We can still discuss his tactics and the future of our club.
Anyway, i didn't argue that Heynckes plays the same football as Guardiola. Even RM under Ancelotti, when the faced Pep's Bayern, based their gameplan on lightning-quick counter-attacks. But these were one-offs, none of these sides was build to play reactive football week in and week out. Atleti are and with great success. Mourinho might be able to do it to with us. But if the usual suspects make it to the semis next season and we're up there with them, it will be us going against the grain and not the other way around. In this sense, they've been "the norm". But nothing's set on stone. In the mid 00's you'd laugh at the notion that two teams with RM and Liverpool's defensive weaknesses will face each other in a CL final. But right now Simeone and Mourinho (Conte hasn't achieved anything worthy of notice in Europe) are going against the grain. Ferguson did too from the early 90's until the mid 00's, when reactive tactics and the game without the ball were prioritized, and he often paid for that at the highest level.
I hope i made myself more clear. Sorry if i seemed aggressive, i usually enjoy reading your posts and the green smileys somewhat got to me.
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No. We've have better quality of players now and that shows.
We lack the mental toughness and grit that was a Mou special. Can't dominate, can't defend a lead and mostly can't get into gear unless there is a fire.
We lack the mental toughness and grit that was a Mou special. Can't dominate, can't defend a lead and mostly can't get into gear unless there is a fire.