People become miserable because you’ve spend enough to buy two or more midtable teams and you still aren’t nearly good enough to challenge for the very top. I can relate to that.
Have we significantly improved since we got rid of LVG?
- Thread starter Wumminator
- Start date
I would relate to that ordinarily. However, i think people need to be realistic in realising just how big a job he had on his hands, and how badly the previous two incumbents had managed the team and squad.
Yes /thread
I agree. They are consumers and not fans.
@Alex99 after a quick skim through you’ve once again clearly misinterpreted and taken things the wrong way. One you’ve assumed many things and jumped to conclusitions. also my response has always been about the 2nd season so what experienced forwards did he add to that frontline? Because I can’t recall him bringing any one in so that rubbishes one of which seems to be your main crux.
Then you talk about injuries. My sentence was referring to when Rooney got injured and we then relied on Martial,Rashford and Lingard with Lingard either going in midfield or playing on the right. You’ve somehow just taken it in another direction and seeing what I think you want to see.
Also like I said Rashford and Martial were some of the only bright sparks in that season. However it doesn’t distract from their inability to execute tactics. That’s not a hard thing to understand Alex. Pogba for example is a great player but he isn’t executing what is asked of him. I merely pointed out that due to LVG’s own failings he left himself short with experience and players who could execute what he wanted and as fans it would be unfair of us to expect Rashford and Martial to execute them.
Now you’re over simplifying stay in position. You do your work within zones, you’re not simply standing still. Also I’m not making out I’m the only one intelligent enough to understand it at all, again something or a conclusition you’ve jumped to on your own like much of this exchange.
There are books, interviews and even people on here who seem to understand football in a different way from yourself and can see the more intricate details.
Anyway thank feck this is over.
Then you talk about injuries. My sentence was referring to when Rooney got injured and we then relied on Martial,Rashford and Lingard with Lingard either going in midfield or playing on the right. You’ve somehow just taken it in another direction and seeing what I think you want to see.
Also like I said Rashford and Martial were some of the only bright sparks in that season. However it doesn’t distract from their inability to execute tactics. That’s not a hard thing to understand Alex. Pogba for example is a great player but he isn’t executing what is asked of him. I merely pointed out that due to LVG’s own failings he left himself short with experience and players who could execute what he wanted and as fans it would be unfair of us to expect Rashford and Martial to execute them.
Now you’re over simplifying stay in position. You do your work within zones, you’re not simply standing still. Also I’m not making out I’m the only one intelligent enough to understand it at all, again something or a conclusition you’ve jumped to on your own like much of this exchange.
There are books, interviews and even people on here who seem to understand football in a different way from yourself and can see the more intricate details.
Anyway thank feck this is over.
You must be a wind-up merchant. Nobody cares how many home points Jose got in his first year. Just like nobody cares that Lingard has only scored 13 goals in 75 games for Utd and how nobody is judging Pep on his mediocre first season at City anymore. It's how they are performing this season that counts, and this season, Mourinho's home record is leaving LVG's best in the dust.
I'm confused. So we're going to allow LvG his imperfections, ignore his league position, ignore his poor goal scoring records and lack of trophies. But for Jose, we have standards and he's not meeting them?
No. Agree, the league changes from year to year. Trophies, final league position, How far we go in CL. On all of those measures (so far), Jose has been better than LvG.
I do not think this is true. Whilst I cant speak on anyone's behalf - Mourinho is fundamentally appreciated by certain fans because he is a winner. He is widely regarded as a short term option who with him brings trophies & will do things and win things in any way possible; irrespective of the core substance & style that revolves around our club.
Whilst it may look like the best option to get us back to the top; some fans- like me, feel that this is just a stopgap option of momentarily instigating our dominance. The fan of this is what to me is a consumer - someone who may enjoy the benefits of a short term win over a more longer term plan & dominance.
I personally don't like fans calling other fans consumers - we are ultimately of varying beliefs of how the club should be run but fans never the less. Jose unfortunately cannot afford another year like this year- where the fans who wanted a quick & short term win in their books are likely to be much less forgiving.
Nevertheless- he is the current manager & many support the manager due to their affection of the club; we need not be head over heels about him.
Not everyone is just a consumer - some for example like me believe:
- The PL is likely to get harder & harder that eventually we need a different plan
- Money purely wont get us and keep us at the top; clubs are capable of spending to similar amounts if not more freely
- We need to build a brand of football & able to play that week in week out so that opposition play re-actively rather than pro-actively ( Under Jose we have been the team that has played way to re-actively/ changing formation/tactics to respect the opposition & have minimal practise of our game plan)
- Our youth system has some good players coming through; it would be a shame for many to not be given the chance like how Ibrahimovic replaced rashford leading to lukaku replacing rashford leading to rashford trying to shoot like Ronaldo.
- This is a pure personal opinion but I feel that a United approach is required to reach and stay at the top for the long term. We need a manager that understands what the fans want, what playing for United represents, how football should be played when wearing our shirts, someone who has United intertwined within their DNA - doing so may mellow the fans expectations for instant glory & allow a chance for a manager to grow in to a role where they can be here for a good 10+years. To me- football has been open to self created managers within the last 6 years & success has followed in a respectable manner.
Ultimately- Just because fans are not head over heels about Jose does not mean that they are not fans of United through thick & thin- because they are; just ultimately seeing a short term option struggle is like waiting for an apple to fall off the tree.
Fans appreciate Jose because he is a winner, and it is not easy to be a winner! It is far more easier to play nice and not win anything. I do not agree with this notion that Jose is short term option and only sees to improve the team in short team. Look at madrid, he setup a good team there. Their 3 champions league came with the players and setup Jose build there. The Chelsea team he built at his first stint ruled PL for a long time. Jose might not be the best in grooming youngsters, but he certainly looks to build for long time and he gives chances to the youngsters if the youngsters show that they can be reliable and can deliver what Jose wants. e.g., He gave good chance to Zouma in his second spell at Chelsea.
Many fans have exaggerated this notion that we always look to attack. These are the fans who think we existed after 2007/08. United have a long history , and we were good attacking side sometimes, but not so much attacking at other times.
These fans also want to throw wingers and cross the ball. That is outdated football, and hence why we dint win much in european football despite having resources to be a continental powerhouse and a very successful long term manager who had time and backing for 'long term planning'.
Many people believe that we need to look to build for long term rather than looking for short term, but that is just bullshit. You cannot build a good long term future if you cannot have a decent present. For e.g., if we had not bought Zlatan, then there will be lot of pressure on Rashford, maybe we wouldnt have won league cup, maybe we could have been knocked out of EL and missed on CL. Without CL, we might not have attracted Matic, De Gea might have pushed for a move, etc. Building for the long term while ignoring present is just bullshit and an excuse for current failures. The reality is if you cannot build a good current side, your best players want to leave, and the top players will never come, hence the puzzle will never be completely solved.
When we bought Shaw, that was deemed long term solution for LB, we all know how that turned out.
When was the last time we played homegrown younsgter as our striker? Its easy to say Jose does not give proper chances but I struggle to see any of our youngster making it in forward position during SAF era too.
You talked about our core ethos - let me tell you we have always been a buying club. We bought striker after striker and always ignored our youngsters. We bought Tevez, Owen, Berbatov instead of giving chance to our youngsters, that too when we were winning titles. So, I do not see any problem in Jose bringing Lukaku who is himself fairly young and learning and not just depending on goal shy speedster Rashford.
Look, it is a good post and you touch on many subjects and i agree with a lot. But what you are talking about sounds like a dream-world. "Intertwined within their DNA" I mean, really? When you look back at what SAF did, nobody could have told you in advance what would happen. Im not saying that i believe Mourinho is a guy that will replicate or come close to what SAF did for this club, but again nobody will come close to that, and who is to say Mourinho wont but someone else will. It's ridiculous.
I was actually a fan of the thought behind a new structure and perceived long term plan with Van Gaal, and think he got served a shit sandwich actually, from the fans. When the results or football looks crap then a different plan seems like a solution but football is football, nothing is promised no matter what but if you put trust in winners then a new season will come after next. Im not a massive fan of José really, or the football we are currently playing but it's all about trophies and I still have big faith in both the club and manager. I enjoy not being too worried about all the ins and outs of our setup and currently I am not, that's why I have trust we will come good with the current manager. We may not play like in the 90's but I have to admit that Mourinho has brought back a lot of things we lost when SAF left. That is just my feeling/opinion
No, the football we play is probably less coherent than LVG, you could atleast see a pattern under him
You know what the funniest thing is? There's a notion that LvG would have eventually been a success at United and he would have led us to a superfluid and extravagantly attacking football simply because he's Dutch and therefore shares the same basic principles with all the managers who follow the Cruyffian approach in football. Despite the latter being true, there was always a huge gap between LvG and Cruyff's philosophy when you get past its basis. In fact, the late Cruyff absolutely despised LvG (and vice versa). For those who have the time to do a bit of research on the internet, you'll find some ridiculous moments between the two. But just to give you an idea, Cruyff once described LvG's methods as... militaristic. Does it ring a bell when you think back on our performances under LvG?
Now, there are two basic ways to judge a manager's approach. The first one is the tactical analysis of his game (theory) and the second one is the way he chooses to harmonize his wants and his players' skills and abilities (practical). Both are equally important and each one can lead to a false conclusion when looked at separately from the other. For example, in theory, Mourinho and Ferguson have more than a few things in common. They both set their teams to defend deep and narrow in their own third, they both attempt to protect the central channels and lead the opposition out wide and they both aim to establish control in the square between the CBs and the CMs. They also rely on lightning-quick transitions to create chances. But that's where the differences begin. Ferguson showed absolute faith in his individuals on the pitch. Of course, there were attacking patterns (such as the long diagonal ball that would set the wingers in 1v1 situations) but the players were encouraged to showcase their skills. In return, each player had to adapt to his teammates' skills too and accept Ferguson's supreme authority as the overseeing eye and high judge. Mourinho, on the other hand, prioritizes structure. He doesn't simply set basic patterns for his players to follow, he draws blueprints that must be followed to the letter. He's not dogmatic about these blueprints per se and he alters them according to the opponent or their level of success but you can expect that they will always be there with him as the manager. And when he struggles to find the right ones, it seems to the naked eye that his teams don't know how to attack. Does it remind you of someone else?
Yup, the same thing applies to LvG and his interpretation of the Dutch model. LvG is also of the opinion that the collective and the system of play is more important than the individual player and the expression of his talents. Guardiola is closer to the Cruyfian principles, with his high degree of vertical position switching/the higher tempo in passing and the higher and more aggressive pressing, than LvG will ever be. LvG is far more cautious, he is wary of extreme position switching and player movement as it decreases defensive stability and does not want to press if he feels there is a high risk of being hit on the counter. At its best, it worked like a charm. At its worst... we all saw it at its worst. But make no mistake, this is what the man believes in. In theory, LvG is a teacher of the Dutch model but in his treatment of the individual talent, he is on the same wavelength as Mourinho despite the fact that the latter is a far more reactive/defensive manager in his basic approach.
In the same sense managers like Guardiola and Klopp have completely different philosophies when compared with SAF but they all embrace the "controlled freedom" of expression he allowed to his players. And it doesn't really come as a big surprise when Guardiola describes SAF as his idol in English football. Managers like LvG, Tuchel, and Bielsa are control freaks. And that's the main reason they enjoy limited periods of exquisite success by reaching tremendous heights followed by prolonged periods of having very little to show for when the right players just weren't there. Poch should be tested without the bunch of talented players he inherited at Spurs to see where he stands. But when the "right" players aren't there, you can't expect miracles to happen out of the blue with LvG at the helm. Then you might ask, why has Mourinho enjoyed such big successes in his managerial career? The answer is simple, because of his ultra-cautious approach. Right there, LvG gets a point as he sets his teams to do their thing instead of reacting to his opponent's tactics like Mourinho. It's not more intelligent, it's just different. And although Mourinho's approach is being put to the sword nowadays against high pressing and more skilled on the ball sides, LvG's approach doesn't guarantee success either. LvG needed the right players as much as the Mourinho apologists on here believe that Jose needs to change the whole squad.
Now, there are two basic ways to judge a manager's approach. The first one is the tactical analysis of his game (theory) and the second one is the way he chooses to harmonize his wants and his players' skills and abilities (practical). Both are equally important and each one can lead to a false conclusion when looked at separately from the other. For example, in theory, Mourinho and Ferguson have more than a few things in common. They both set their teams to defend deep and narrow in their own third, they both attempt to protect the central channels and lead the opposition out wide and they both aim to establish control in the square between the CBs and the CMs. They also rely on lightning-quick transitions to create chances. But that's where the differences begin. Ferguson showed absolute faith in his individuals on the pitch. Of course, there were attacking patterns (such as the long diagonal ball that would set the wingers in 1v1 situations) but the players were encouraged to showcase their skills. In return, each player had to adapt to his teammates' skills too and accept Ferguson's supreme authority as the overseeing eye and high judge. Mourinho, on the other hand, prioritizes structure. He doesn't simply set basic patterns for his players to follow, he draws blueprints that must be followed to the letter. He's not dogmatic about these blueprints per se and he alters them according to the opponent or their level of success but you can expect that they will always be there with him as the manager. And when he struggles to find the right ones, it seems to the naked eye that his teams don't know how to attack. Does it remind you of someone else?
Yup, the same thing applies to LvG and his interpretation of the Dutch model. LvG is also of the opinion that the collective and the system of play is more important than the individual player and the expression of his talents. Guardiola is closer to the Cruyfian principles, with his high degree of vertical position switching/the higher tempo in passing and the higher and more aggressive pressing, than LvG will ever be. LvG is far more cautious, he is wary of extreme position switching and player movement as it decreases defensive stability and does not want to press if he feels there is a high risk of being hit on the counter. At its best, it worked like a charm. At its worst... we all saw it at its worst. But make no mistake, this is what the man believes in. In theory, LvG is a teacher of the Dutch model but in his treatment of the individual talent, he is on the same wavelength as Mourinho despite the fact that the latter is a far more reactive/defensive manager in his basic approach.
In the same sense managers like Guardiola and Klopp have completely different philosophies when compared with SAF but they all embrace the "controlled freedom" of expression he allowed to his players. And it doesn't really come as a big surprise when Guardiola describes SAF as his idol in English football. Managers like LvG, Tuchel, and Bielsa are control freaks. And that's the main reason they enjoy limited periods of exquisite success by reaching tremendous heights followed by prolonged periods of having very little to show for when the right players just weren't there. Poch should be tested without the bunch of talented players he inherited at Spurs to see where he stands. But when the "right" players aren't there, you can't expect miracles to happen out of the blue with LvG at the helm. Then you might ask, why has Mourinho enjoyed such big successes in his managerial career? The answer is simple, because of his ultra-cautious approach. Right there, LvG gets a point as he sets his teams to do their thing instead of reacting to his opponent's tactics like Mourinho. It's not more intelligent, it's just different. And although Mourinho's approach is being put to the sword nowadays against high pressing and more skilled on the ball sides, LvG's approach doesn't guarantee success either. LvG needed the right players as much as the Mourinho apologists on here believe that Jose needs to change the whole squad.
Well said.
So here's a stats-heavy analysis comparing how we're performing under Mourinho with how we performed under Van Gaal in 2015/16.
tl;dr Better
Little bit sneaky only including Van Gaal's second season. I wonder how we looks compared to his first season? Although, to be fair, that was made a lot easier by the lack of European football.
tl;dr Better
Little bit sneaky only including Van Gaal's second season. I wonder how we looks compared to his first season? Although, to be fair, that was made a lot easier by the lack of European football.
We have not totally got over it yet but we soon will. LVG didn't have the fire that Jose does. One thing i can guarantee about Jose is, if it doesn't work for him he'll leave. So i'm guessing we'll keep this charade going until Jose loses the dressing room and that is not very far judging by his history. The Ego on him is higher than that of Putin. He will either win loads of things with us next season or all this will go downhill very quickly now. LVG was a hack!
Wait until you see Jose has his 3rd season breakdown - from his usual 2nd season heights he achieved which is inline with this thread. We will be recruiting Giggs in an emergency who plays 352 at United - which would leave Jose in the dust * then you can call LVG a hack buddy; the manager who did nothing
It's the doom and gloomers who think we haven't. It's obvious to anyone who can see straight that we've improved "significantly" since 15/16.
It's a good article and nicely wraps everything up for a good comparison.
As for how it looks:
- League results are superior obviously. Nobody denies that - it's literally a table we can see.
- Results against top six look better now given the Chelsea and Liverpool results. Still quite impressive Van Gaal had a better points-per-match in what was his worst season out of the two. Mourinho has Arsenal at home to get one more win in these games (assuming he's setting up for a draw/loss against City).
- I think the only thing to say about transfers is that clearly, Mourinho had a list of players he wanted and Van Gaal didn't. He spent about the same amount of cash (although it's +£40m) but delivered better players. I'm not convinced Van Gaal specifically wanted players like Di Maria or Martial but rather okay-ed them for Woodward to push for. Or maybe it was stupidity asking for the likes of Muller.
- Attack wise, I really don't see how Mourinho could have failed to improve through the players he had alone, even just with strikers. Zlatan was a better front man than Rooney was. Lukaku is a better striker than Rooney was. Van Gaal's mistake was being a know-it-all and thinking Rooney could do the job himself after binning Van Persie. Martial was hardly one to depend on either in his first season (and yet finished top scorer). This element should have always improved. It's still not great in spite of it.
- I think it's interesting that the sections on defence and weaknesses almost shows you the difference in tactics/strategy. Van Gaal's way making more interceptions and tackles. Mourinho's way almost showing a dogged approach with more aerial battle wins, blocks and clearances. Not only that but we've made more errors (resulting in goals) under Mourinho and have had to rely on De Gea more too. The errors stat for me immediately makes me think of players being uncomfortable with how they're being asked to play which wouldn't surprise me given how we look sometimes.
Yes and LVG improved on Moyes.
The question is have we improved enough rather than have we improved compared to a manager who provided mind numbing football and who many of us wanted sacked in December of his second season. I am not sure we have made enough improvement after nearly two full seasons and fear we have a manager on the downward slope of his career - still good but no longer A list, like the Wenger of 10 years ago.
Point after 30 games in the PL since 00/01:
70 (C); 61; 61 (C); 62; 66; 66 (C); 75 (C); 70 (C); 68 (C); 66; 63 C); 73; 77 (C).
Our average points after 30 games in SAF's final 13 years was 67. We currently sit on 65. I'd say that isn't bad at all in comparison to our finest era in the PL.
Ive yet to be as bored watching Joses team as I was many, many times under LVG. Zero shots on goal, nevermind on target was an all too often occurrence with LVG.
All I managed to get out of that skysports analysis is how good of a signing Romero was on a free!
We have significantly improved under Mourinho.
Have we significantly improved enough to meet some peoples expectations, no. In a season where Guardiola has (league-wise) over performed this was always going to be an issue for many. Chuck in one hugely poor result into the mix that eliminates us from Europe while again Man City and Liverpool progress and in this moment its easy to question that improvement. Take a step back and you can see progress has been made. Van Gaal sapped all desire and intensity out of the club. Okay, we are having a worse season than City, right in this moment its not ideal, but its a far cry from Van Gaal and Moyes.
I will take our current 'crisis' over theirs any day of the week.
Have we significantly improved enough to meet some peoples expectations, no. In a season where Guardiola has (league-wise) over performed this was always going to be an issue for many. Chuck in one hugely poor result into the mix that eliminates us from Europe while again Man City and Liverpool progress and in this moment its easy to question that improvement. Take a step back and you can see progress has been made. Van Gaal sapped all desire and intensity out of the club. Okay, we are having a worse season than City, right in this moment its not ideal, but its a far cry from Van Gaal and Moyes.
I will take our current 'crisis' over theirs any day of the week.
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Besides Martial and Rashford.
We will see how significant it is at the end of the season. No trophy and it's not hugely significant for me. Especially considering the fortune he has spent.
I completely agree, i do think Jose will leave us collecting dust and i also think Giggs should be our first choice replacement. He will in turn change a lot but i think he knows how we have been playing and he can also work well with Nicky Butt to create a strong base for us.Wait until you see Jose has his 3rd season breakdown - from his usual 2nd season heights he achieved which is inline with this thread. We will be recruiting Giggs in an emergency who plays 352 at United - which would leave Jose in the dust * then you can call LVG a hack buddy; the manager who did nothing
Give it to Giggsy & Butt til the end of the season
I'm an LVG fan. No one should lie we haven't made significant progress since he left. Mourinho has made clear and significant progress. But the rebuilding job isn't done and needs one or two summer windows to complete
Sadly City's anomaly season under Pep gas blinded people to how well we are actually doing.
Sadly City's anomaly season under Pep gas blinded people to how well we are actually doing.
I agree we're in much better shape since Mou has been in charge, but I think it's the brand of football we're playing that's upsetting people more than City's outlier season which just happens to involve scintillating football (motherfeckers).
Our overall standard of football is about the same, we just have better players polishing it up.
No question our play has improved significantly since Van Gaal left. But it hasn't improved enough. Simple as that.
This.
If LvG had Pogba and Sanchez, his philosophy would have been a notch higher in terms of results. LvG had a good defense which Jose has made better. Attacking wise LvG got something out of martial and rashford, but Jose isn't really making our attacking players look the part.
If we were with in 3 points off them. It wouldn't matter. That is why I can't understand the aesthetics police amongst our fans. We dont have the tools to be consistently exciting. We havent had them since 2 years before Fergie retired.
It's a shame we are left asking these questions now. How the feck did we let Moyes become our manager. I mean collectively fans, club, God. We all screwed up there . I'm resigned to needing a few more years before I can expect a full trophy sweep. So in that context a European cup, league cup and looking like top 4 maybe an FA Cup is brilliant .
People forget our attack had started to significantly gel before he signed Alexis and disrupted all the chemistry and partnerships that had been developed through out the team. I will be very shocked if after pre season our attack still looks this ungelled
2 seasons then we won it for the next 3.
We were more of an all out attacking team in the premiership in the 90s/early 2000s than after 2007.
What fan wanted Moyes? Everyone I know and what I read on the forums and in the press virtually every fan didnt want him
We did improve. The gap between us and very top teams is still big, though. Also, this latest behaviour from Mourinho is a bit worrying.