Have we significantly improved since we got rid of LVG?

whatwha

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Why don't you enlighten me?
The saying is often misinterpreted by many. In common usage, it's often a senseless statement made to suggest that an exception to some absolute somehow proves the absolute is true. It's pretty much incoherent, as it seeks to prove something true by providing evidence that it's false. It is generally not a phrase uttered by uttered by people who know what they’re talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule

I believe your use of the saying falls under "serious nonsense", unfortunately. If a club that does not conform to the "rule" can have so much success, then they basically disprove your "rule".
 

SalfordRed1960

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No. We've have better quality of players now and that shows.

We lack the mental toughness and grit that was a Mou special. Can't dominate, can't defend a lead and mostly can't get into gear unless there is a fire.
I think the people who rely on stats will always argue we are significantly better. Same as those who argue we were 6th now 2nd so improvement. What stats don't take into account is the depth of quality in the opposition.

If we largely agree that we are playing unattractive football, then Jose has not improved the side that much. That said, points and goals do win trophies, but if the quality of the opposition has decreased at the same time as we have invested heavily and supposedly strengthened, surely one would expect more points and goals. So the question is whether the improvement is significant. Is a rise from 58% wins to 69% significant, when the losses have also increased?

I do not see this massive improvement over 2 years, though we have won trophies. I see pragmatic football with all attributes you describe, certainly not the United I grew up with. Would I be happier playing like a Liverpool/Spurs/Arsenal and not winning. I would probably find that even more annoying, because it highlights lack of maturity and mindset.
 

Eckers99

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We've gone from 6th, never scoring in the first half and bombing out of the CL at the group stage to 2nd, scoring goals in both halves and expecting to make the QFs of the CL (having coasted through the group).

Of course we've improved.
 

Luke1995

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Significant improvement for me would be anything close to the football played from 1998 to 2009. Just buy a winger who can cross like Beckham and another winger who can go past players like Ronaldo. Mourinho needs to stop converting wingers to full backs.
 

baskinginthesun

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The jury is still out, of course. I'm not arguing that he can't do it. I'm just saying that i understand why some posters on here (some notable ones too) believe that we should be building our side towards a different direction.

Just a small note though: Juventus are more than comfortable with the ball at their feet and their passing is crisp and accurate. They almost turned the tie around in Madrid mainly because they enjoyed several periods in which they had the initiative. They didn't ust sit back and hope for the best. Maybe the fact that they're forced to play on the front foot because of their superior quality against the rest of the Serie A plays a part in this.

I don't have huge issues with Mourinho's playing style. I can live with his tactics, if he's going to set United again on the right track again. Where we disagree is that he's being overly cautious because he's trying different things. You see, the tempo of our games has been one of our biggest weaknesses throughout the season. And for a transition-based manager, this is a potential problem because his kind lives and breathes for quick ball movement. Two things of notice here: It's become way more difficult to control the tempo of the game nowadays because most good football teams are set to dominate possession or to press the hell out of you (at this point football tactics have changed since Jose was the hottest name in the managerial world), so Mou's last two CL exits (with Chelsea against PSG with a man up and a scoreline in his favour) can cause a bit of concern. But if he's trying to build a team more confident in possession, i can tell you that he won't achieve it with the likes of Matic, Herrera, Fellaini and McTominay or by struggling to fit his most skilled players, like Pogba and Martial (even Alexis is struggling to adopt) in his system.

I believe these are points for discussion whether you like Mourinho or not.
Points taken. I think you are right about Juventus. But, I also feel when you are 3-0 down in a two legged tie you have to go for it. Also, like you said, Juventus are probably used to it from the Serie A and are able to control the match with the ball.

I would like to say that I think Mourhino has it in him to go for it as well. The times we were down against the likes of Crystal Palace, Chelsea, and Man City proves that when his back is against a wall he can go hell bent on getting a result. But, he is a "dont let them score first" kind of manager. So at some point during a match, he will sit back and absorb pressure.

But, as you said, I would like to see more tempo in the build up earlier in the games. That is one major criticism I have of him.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I think the people who rely on stats will always argue we are significantly better. Same as those who argue we were 6th now 2nd so improvement. What stats don't take into account is the depth of quality in the opposition.
I'll the stats discussion to couch console managers in here.

Have we improved since LvG? Yes.
Have we significantly improved since LvG? No.

Out midfield is better, but still does not function as a unit. The dynamics are still off in both midfield and attack. We have most of the pieces but they just have not been fit well. We excel and suck in patches with no consistency either as a team or individually.

I reckon we own our league position more to De Gea than to Mourinho.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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The saying is often misinterpreted by many. In common usage, it's often a senseless statement made to suggest that an exception to some absolute somehow proves the absolute is true. It's pretty much incoherent, as it seeks to prove something true by providing evidence that it's false. It is generally not a phrase uttered by uttered by people who know what they’re talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule

I believe your use of the saying falls under "serious nonsense", unfortunately. If a club that does not conform to the "rule" can have so much success, then they basically disprove your "rule".
Oh, i see. Well, if we go by that Wiki link i suppose i was aiming for the loose rhetorical sense. Atleti's success has come by following core principles which aren't implemented by the most successful teams in the 5 big European leagues as their main plan. It's admirable, what they've done, but Bayern (alongside the vast majority of the Bundesliga), PSG, Barca, Real Madrid, Juventus (with Allegri), City, Liverpool etc. don't aim to replicate them. Good possession football and/or pressing tactics are a major part of their game instead. In England, Chelsea and United have enjoyed success under Jose/Conte but not at the highest level in recent years. So, the "rule", if you believe there's one, says the most successful clubs in Europe during the last decade have gained their success by prioritizing the game on the ball and the attempt to win the ball higher up the pitch. Just as the "rule", a decade before that, said that the complete opposite was the way to go. For example, Barcelona in 2006 won the CL against the idea of what were considered to be modern tactics back then. In the final, they beat Arsenal who had "conformed" to the rule that season and that led them to their best CL season. Two years later, SAF also "conformed" to that rule after a series of unsuccessful campaigns (we had won only one knock-out tie from 1999-00 until 2005-06). Furthermore, Bayern's CL victory under Hitzfeld in 2001 came by playing a different type of football compared to Heynckes' team in 2013. But both of them were following the "norm" in their respective periods. As i said, it's not written in stone. It's more like a weathervane that indicates which tactics seem more favourable during a specific period.
 
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The holy trinity 68

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Significant improvement for me would be anything close to the football played from 1998 to 2009. Just buy a winger who can cross like Beckham and another winger who can go past players like Ronaldo. Mourinho needs to stop converting wingers to full backs.
Sorry to break it to you but that player doesn't exist. No one can cross like Becks could.
 

AshRK

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No. We've have better quality of players now and that shows.

We lack the mental toughness and grit that was a Mou special. Can't dominate, can't defend a lead and mostly can't get into gear unless there is a fire.
Doesn't make much sense considering we have made comeback against top opponents in crunch matches aka city, spurs, chelsea.
 

WR10

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The one thing that is important to a United team is the fear factor. There were moments in this season that I definitely felt we had that and I have never felt that with LVG/Moyes. I mean regardless, objectively in achievements, goals scored and games won - we have definitely improved anyway.
 

Beaucoup

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Look at the LVG team Mourinho took over, I don’t think even he realised how shite they were, you can’t fix that overnight and I still think it will take a couple more windows to sort, however he’s still managed to bag a couple of trophies on the way and we have a cup final to look forward to.

Let’s judge him and the style of football his team plays when the teams built,not in transition, he’s spoke plenty of times about the fans expectations and the way they expect the team to play, he obviously gets it, but if he has to play ugly in order to win in the meantime I’ll take over playing pretty and winning feck all cause we haven’t got the players to do so.
 

AshRK

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Talking about the season as a whole, not some odd instances. As I said, it was patchy, with some good, some bad and mostly meh performances.
But you don't finish 2nd with mostly meh performances and weak mentality. Yes, finishing 2nd is not something to celebrate but it is a considerable improvement from previous seasons. However, the real test lies next season. Similar season to this one would be a failure.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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But you don't finish 2nd with mostly meh performances and weak mentality. Yes, finishing 2nd is not something to celebrate but it is a considerable improvement from previous seasons. However, the real test lies next season. Similar season to this one would be a failure.
Imo, we finished 2nd more the DDG and his clutch saves than due to Mou's management.
 

AshRK

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Imo, we finished 2nd more the DDG and his clutch saves than due to Mou's management.
Will wholeheartedly agree to disagree with you on that. Bar the arsenal game , he has not saved us 3 points. If anything his performance this season has been immensely overrated by our fans. He has been great but not like saving 3 points on his own
 

Mike Smalling

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Will wholeheartedly agree to disagree with you on that. Bar the arsenal game , he has not saved us 3 points. If anything his performance this season has been immensely overrated by our fans. He has been great but not like saving 3 points on his own
I'm not saying DDG is the sole reason for our likely 2nd place, but there are other examples of DDG saving us points this season. Crystal Palace away comes to mind - he had a phenomenal save right after we equalised.
 

Luke1995

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Sorry to break it to you but that player doesn't exist. No one can cross like Becks could.
I reckon it will be very difficult to find one, but i'm sure in our lifetimes we will see something close to it. I mean, everyone has two eyes and two legs, with insane training and dedication one could learn to be the perfect crosser, but I think the reason Beckham was so good at it was because he literally made his entire game around it.
 

automaticflare

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I reckon it will be very difficult to find one, but i'm sure in our lifetimes we will see something close to it. I mean, everyone has two eyes and two legs, with insane training and dedication one could learn to be the perfect crosser, but I think the reason Beckham was so good at it was because he literally made his entire game around it.
I think you underestimate how bloody good Beckham’s delivery and set pieces were
 

bosnian_red

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But you don't finish 2nd with mostly meh performances and weak mentality. Yes, finishing 2nd is not something to celebrate but it is a considerable improvement from previous seasons. However, the real test lies next season. Similar season to this one would be a failure.
We're in second because we've been clinical and because of De gea saving us loads of times. In terms of overall performances levels, the chances we create, the amount we concede... we are not the 2nd best side in the league.
 

Nate Dogg

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Mourinho is a fraud...need the fecker out of our club the sooner the better.
 

finneh

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We're in second because we've been clinical and because of De gea saving us loads of times. In terms of overall performances levels, the chances we create, the amount we concede... we are not the 2nd best side in the league.
Nonsense. De Gea has won us maybe a quarter of the points that Kane/Salah have won for their teams. If you're disregarding De Gea then you can likewise disregard Liverpool and Spurs' best players.

We're second because we have the second best squad and have performed as the second best team. We might have the best goalkeeper, but we have the 4th best striker... It's a team game.
 

lysglimt

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What people should be asking themselves - do you see ANYTHING that indicates that we are even close to challenging for the title next season ?
I have almost given up on this team under Mourinho. He has had 2 years to create a good team - and we are not closer. And people will argue that we might end 2nd so we are moving in the the direction. We have better players yes - but in terms of attacking football, we are at least 2 levels behind City and Liverpool. And if he can't make Rashford, Martial, Lukaku, Sanchez, Pogba at least play decent attacking football - what players does he need ? Messi and Ronaldo ?

No - these last few weeks have decided it for me - I don't want Mourinho next season.
 

stubie

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Mourinho is a fraud...need the fecker out of our club the sooner the better.
Had his best days at Porto, Chelsea (1st time) and Inter.

Madrid damaged him and apart from one season at Chelsea since he hasn’t looked the same Manager since
 

bosnian_red

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Nonsense. De Gea has won us maybe a quarter of the points that Kane/Salah have won for their teams. If you're disregarding De Gea then you can likewise disregard Liverpool and Spurs' best players.

We're second because we have the second best squad and have performed as the second best team. We might have the best goalkeeper, but we have the 4th best striker... It's a team game.
The difference is that whatever a goalkeeper does has nothing to do with the game plan, nothing to do with system put in place. He's the last resort option when the system fails and they get a chance. Kane and Salah on the other hand are attackers who their teams have built around and have game plans working for them to get the most out of them. See the difference?
 

Castia

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The second place in the league is covering all sorts of cracks. The football is shite, results not much better, we’re probably the worst runners up in any PL season I can remember.

We’re that far off the top (20 points or so) that second means nothing, it shouldn’t be celebrated as a step forward it’s completely irrelevant, we may as well be fourth.

I might sound spoilt being second in the Prem and in a FA cup final but it’s been a shite season, the football we serve up is shocking.
 

finneh

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The difference is that whatever a goalkeeper does has nothing to do with the game plan, nothing to do with system put in place. He's the last resort option when the system fails and they get a chance. Kane and Salah on the other hand are attackers who their teams have built around and have game plans working for them to get the most out of them. See the difference?
Kane and Salah in Lukaku's position this season score another 10 PL goals that equates to probably 10 points. Miignolet in De Gea's position this season possibly let's in another 10 goals than equate to 10 points.

De Gea gains points by being the last line of defence. Kane and Salah gain points out of nothing by creating out of nothing and finishing chances that Lukaku is incapable of doing.

There is no difference... Unless you think Lukaku would score 40+ goals in the Liverpool or Spurs squad... which would be a laughable opinion.
 

Minimalist

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The second place in the league is covering all sorts of cracks. The football is shite, results not much better, we’re probably the worst runners up in any PL season I can remember.

We’re that far off the top (20 points or so) that second means nothing, it shouldn’t be celebrated as a step forward it’s completely irrelevant, we may as well be fourth.

I might sound spoilt being second in the Prem and in a FA cup final but it’s been a shite season, the football we serve up is shocking.
It'll be the biggest gap ever after this defeat (assuming City win their games).
 

The holy trinity 68

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I reckon it will be very difficult to find one, but i'm sure in our lifetimes we will see something close to it. I mean, everyone has two eyes and two legs, with insane training and dedication one could learn to be the perfect crosser, but I think the reason Beckham was so good at it was because he literally made his entire game around it.
That is exactly it mate. Along with the fact that football is different now and crossing isn’t that big a part of the game to be the main focus for a players training and practice.
 

VeevaVee

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We have improved. I look at the team though and think, aside from the keeper, there isn't a single section of the pitch that we're actually impressive in. Like, not even in the slightest.
 

bosnian_red

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Kane and Salah in Lukaku's position this season score another 10 PL goals that equates to probably 10 points. Miignolet in De Gea's position this season possibly let's in another 10 goals than equate to 10 points.

De Gea gains points by being the last line of defence. Kane and Salah gain points out of nothing by creating out of nothing and finishing chances that Lukaku is incapable of doing.

There is no difference... Unless you think Lukaku would score 40+ goals in the Liverpool or Spurs squad... which would be a laughable opinion.
Not at all like that. You need the right system in place to get the best out of those players. The system is what you get on the training ground and passed down from the manager. Every outfield player contributes to that system of play on the ball, and off the ball. The only differences in system that a goalkeeper impacts is when Pep wants them to be sweeper keepers and come way off their line or if they want them to be part of the build up play. The rest is pure just him being a magnificent goalkeeper and it's not a tactic to let the opposition have so many chances. Ideally, you want to let the opposition have as few chances as possible and then when needed, a fantastic goalkeeper to save you.
Strikers and wingers like Kane or Salah, you get a system in place to get the best out of them, to create chances for them, to put them in situations where they can create these chances out of nothing. They're both important, but a goalkeeper you just get the best one you can most of the time and the difference is obvious. With individual outfield players... It's very system reliant.


Salah and Kane would not be scoring that much playing for United. Kane would score more then Lukaku, yeah, but Salah would flop and eventually be sold because the position he plays for Liverpool doesn't exist in a Mourinho side. Mourinho always wants his furthest forward players to be big, strong, physical like Lukaku (or Kane). So Salah would be nothing more then a creator, not the goalscorer he's been this season.
 

Romez

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Only place we’ve improved is the quality of player.

You add the likes of Lukaku, Pogba, Sanchez, Matic, Bailly, Mkhitaryan and Ibrahimovic obviously the results will improve and they should do, with how much they cost.

Squad? Yes. As a team? No, we have not improved.
 

whatwha

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Oh, i see. Well, if we go by that Wiki link i suppose i was aiming for the loose rhetorical sense. Atleti's success has come by following core principles which aren't implemented by the most successful teams in the 5 big European leagues as their main plan. It's admirable, what they've done, but Bayern (alongside the vast majority of the Bundesliga), PSG, Barca, Real Madrid, Juventus (with Allegri), City, Liverpool etc. don't aim to replicate them. Good possession football and/or pressing tactics are a major part of their game instead. In England, Chelsea and United have enjoyed success under Jose/Conte but not at the highest level in recent years. So, the "rule", if you believe there's one, says the most successful clubs in Europe during the last decade have gained their success by prioritizing the game on the ball and the attempt to win the ball higher up the pitch. Just as the "rule", a decade before that, said that the complete opposite was the way to go. For example, Barcelona in 2006 won the CL against the idea of what were considered to be modern tactics back then. In the final, they beat Arsenal who had "conformed" to the rule that season and that led them to their best CL season. Two years later, SAF also "conformed" to that rule after a series of unsuccessful campaigns (we had won only one knock-out tie from 1999-00 until 2005-06). Furthermore, Bayern's CL victory under Hitzfeld in 2001 came by playing a different type of football compared to Heynckes' team in 2013. But both of them were following the "norm" in their respective periods. As i said, it's not written in stone. It's more like a weathervane that indicates which tactics seem more favourable during a specific period.
All right, fair enough. :)
 

finneh

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Not at all like that. You need the right system in place to get the best out of those players. The system is what you get on the training ground and passed down from the manager. Every outfield player contributes to that system of play on the ball, and off the ball. The only differences in system that a goalkeeper impacts is when Pep wants them to be sweeper keepers and come way off their line or if they want them to be part of the build up play. The rest is pure just him being a magnificent goalkeeper and it's not a tactic to let the opposition have so many chances. Ideally, you want to let the opposition have as few chances as possible and then when needed, a fantastic goalkeeper to save you.
Strikers and wingers like Kane or Salah, you get a system in place to get the best out of them, to create chances for them, to put them in situations where they can create these chances out of nothing. They're both important, but a goalkeeper you just get the best one you can most of the time and the difference is obvious. With individual outfield players... It's very system reliant.

Salah and Kane would not be scoring that much playing for United. Kane would score more then Lukaku, yeah, but Salah would flop and eventually be sold because the position he plays for Liverpool doesn't exist in a Mourinho side. Mourinho always wants his furthest forward players to be big, strong, physical like Lukaku (or Kane). So Salah would be nothing more then a creator, not the goalscorer he's been this season.
Completely disagree. Salah has broken every record going this season because he's the most in form attacker pretty much ever, in a league with Cristiano Ronaldo in Fergie's best ever team. Kane has likewise shown over 100 PL games that he's one of the most consistently prolific strikers over the past 10-20 years. De Bruyne for 6 months was playing passes on a weekly basis that we have rarely seen In PL history.

However because it's United our fans treat our best player like he's some kind of golden ticket, despite every good team having at least the same luxury.

If you put De Bruyne, Salah, Kane and De Gea for sale, three of them would sell for £150m+ because their contributions are so phenomenal. The other one might fetch £70m because the position he plays frankly can never be as influential.