Ok but then you have to take other things in to consideration, such as injuries etc. At the end of the day do you think if we played our strongest 11 against their strongest 11, they would win? Because I don't. The thing about judging on cups is that they're generally one of games and you can greatly helped by who you're drawn against. I.e. in general in the past few years we've had tough draws in the FA cup, other teams such as Chelsea haven't had it quite as hard. Look at Liverpool winning the Champions league, it's a cup competition, shocks can happen. In the league this is much less likely to happen as the period of games is greater. Additionally it is easier to judge who has done the best as every team plays exactly the same teams.
How good are we?
- Thread starter Plechazunga
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
15 August 2004
Chelsea 1 Man Utd 0
-------------Howard------
Neville --- Keane --- Silvestre --- Fortune
Miller --- O'Shea --- Djemba2 --- Giggs
-------------Scholes-------------
------------Smith
Subs: Ricardo, Phil Neville, Bellion, Richardson, Forlan.
Athletic Bilbao hasn't win anything for more than two decades. They are not a "better club" than us. I'd say they have the stronger first eleven though.
Yeah City got it wrong in terms of their approach and Arsenal also played very well. But again that shows that in isolated games anything can happen.
Cheers mate. I don't think the striker thing is a burning issue, the only thing we really need is a midfielder. But I think getting in another attacker could help us a lot as Welbeck is not clinical enough in front of goal yet, and is still learning and Hernandez will always need others to create for him. Whilst it won't make or break us, having another attacker who can come in for Rooney would be a big help.
I said it would be about 33/33/33. Chelsea certainly had an easy run in the Double season which I agree I am bitter about. The strength of the teams you face should be taken into account.
That's one way to look at it, although I'd argue we have a far better first XI. And I'd argue that City's is far better than ours. They won't win the league though.
Graphically illustrates my point.
15 August 2004
Chelsea 1 Man Utd 0
-------------Howard------
Neville --- Keane --- Silvestre --- Fortune
Miller --- O'Shea --- Djemba2 --- Giggs
-------------Scholes-------------
------------Smith
Subs: Ricardo, Phil Neville, Bellion, Richardson, Forlan.
We should have played o'shea at the back and keane in the middle. Thats beyond baffling.
15 August 2004
Chelsea 1 Man Utd 0
-------------Howard------
Neville --- Keane --- Silvestre --- Fortune
Miller --- O'Shea --- Djemba2 --- Giggs
-------------Scholes-------------
------------Smith
Subs: Ricardo, Phil Neville, Bellion, Richardson, Forlan.
15 August 2004
Chelsea 1 Man Utd 0
-------------Howard------
Neville --- Keane --- Silvestre --- Fortune
Miller --- O'Shea --- Djemba2 --- Giggs
-------------Scholes-------------
------------Smith
Subs: Ricardo, Phil Neville, Bellion, Richardson, Forlan.
We had loads of injuries that day. This was opening game and was Jose's 1st game.
But yeah times were tough back then.
I think, more than anything, that game is proof to SAF's brilliance as a manager more than anything.....I mean look at that, and that Chelsea is the 95pt one right? And I'd dare, if I remember correctly, we matched and even outplayed them at times.
15 August 2004
Chelsea 1 Man Utd 0
-------------Howard------
Neville --- Keane --- Silvestre --- Fortune
Miller --- O'Shea --- Djemba2 --- Giggs
-------------Scholes-------------
------------Smith
Subs: Ricardo, Phil Neville, Bellion, Richardson, Forlan.
I remember thinking it'd be an absolute drubbing, first game for Jose wanting against us, definitely wanted to get a marker down and shit.
I'm using a refined definition of contribution. A players 'contribution' is determined by a simple question: If he wasn't in our squad how much would we miss him?
I listed Vidic last because of the small number of games played - I thought it was more than 6 tbh
But he's such a force of nature that he improves us virtually every game he plays.By the above definition Evra, despite playing every game, has made no contribution this season. Fabio, or any decent LB, could have performed just as well.
Back then defense (+ keeper) was our weakness as much as CM is our weakness today. However one must be very careful how to judge that team. It had renowned players like Scholes, Giggs, Van Nistelrooy, Saha and Ronaldo. The former two still ignite our creativity spark till this very day.
I think that both that side and this side were weak because they failed to address their weaknesses. The 2004 team would have never been able dominate the football scene if it constantly failed to address our defensive problems (which were sorted thanks to VDS, Vidic, Evra and Carrick). This present side would struggle to dominate today's football scene unless its sort CM's problem.
You missed out "least injured club".
Let's assume our "best team" is De Gea, Rafael, Rio, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Anderson, Valencia, Rooney, Nani, Welbeck. In the first leg against Bilboa we were missing seven of those; in the second leg five. I could let you have Young instead of Nani - reduces it to 6 and 4; and maybe Evans for Vidic isn't really a step down - 5 and 3. So let's take 5 players out of Athletic's "best team" and see how we compare. You are judging the clubs on the basis of the sides they were able to field on the day - there aren't many clubs who could lose that many starters and still compete with a full strength Athletic.
Think of the treble team without Stam, Johnsen, Beckham, Scholes, Keane, and Yorke - or the 07-08 team without Rio, Vidic, Ronaldo, Scholes, Carrick and Rooney. I'm not saying that today's players in those positions are as good as those in the past teams, but those are the positions from which we lost our first choices. How would those teams have done under similar circumstances to today's? We were missing two players (Scholes and Keane) in the '99 CL final and got embarrassed by Bayerne for 85 minutes (until we managed to crock Lothar Matthaus); we played Chelsea without Evra and Ronaldo in April '07 and got beaten. We've been playing without 4 or 5 first choices for most of the season.
So, if you're saying that the sides Bilboa fielded were better than the sides we fielded, obviously you are correct. If you are saying that they are a stronger club, I'll ask for a little more evidence.
And that's not considering we started the season with Anderson and Cleverley as first choice, both also missing.
Aye we have been hit very hard by injuries this is true. European wise though, we have just been ultra-poor this season, in the group stage our only wins came at the expensive of that Romanian team, and then in the Europa League we won 1 lost 3.
W3D3L4.
That's just very poor for United, and compared to Bilbao's record in Europe this season it looks even worse. People who cite Athletic's fall down the La Liga table forget that they are also in the Copa Del Rey final, and that is a 2 legged thing. None of this English single game nonsense.
So Athletic Club could win 2 cups this season, one of which they knocked out United on the way, or they could win nothing.
Of course United have a bigger squad, we have a better first XI on paper (as city do to us), we'd dominate them in a League, but somehow I don't think we have been better than them this season.
W3D3L4.
That's just very poor for United, and compared to Bilbao's record in Europe this season it looks even worse. People who cite Athletic's fall down the La Liga table forget that they are also in the Copa Del Rey final, and that is a 2 legged thing. None of this English single game nonsense.
So Athletic Club could win 2 cups this season, one of which they knocked out United on the way, or they could win nothing.
Of course United have a bigger squad, we have a better first XI on paper (as city do to us), we'd dominate them in a League, but somehow I don't think we have been better than them this season.
If anyone is interested the records of the two teams so far this season are:
I think I'd like to draw a line under this debate though, as it isn't even what the OP was about.
Athletic Club
League: W10D11L10
Cup: W7D1L0 (against rather poor teams)
Europe: W8D2L2
Overall: W25D14L12.
Manchester United
League: W25D4L3
FA Cup: W1D0L1
League Cup: W2D0L1
Europe: W3D3L4
Overall: W31D7L9
League: W10D11L10
Cup: W7D1L0 (against rather poor teams)
Europe: W8D2L2
Overall: W25D14L12.
Manchester United
League: W25D4L3
FA Cup: W1D0L1
League Cup: W2D0L1
Europe: W3D3L4
Overall: W31D7L9
I can not believe that some people here are arguing Bilbao are better than us. Mental.
Like I said, we've probably got the best squad in the world IMO.
Like I said, we've probably got the best squad in the world IMO.
We suffer playing against teams who press us constantly, we also had players out. Credit to Bilbobaggings, they deserved it. It was a big game for them. To think they're a better team/club is just fecking mental.
steady on...
best squad in England. Sure. Beyond that is debatable and not backed up by recent performances. I still think we'd struggle to beat the likes of Barca, Madrid and perhaps even Bayern.
One or two quality purchases and i'd be willing to reconsider my position. Right now we are on a good run of form, and like QPR and Fulham, English teams just back off and letu us dominate possession.
European teams don't give us that luxury and that's when we see them control our midfield and give us a hard time. It's easy to think we're the best based on domestic results but for me the test is how well we do against European teams and there we're still not quite able to match the very best.
I wonder whether there's a less appreciative fan base than our own?
I think the difference is I don't doubt Barce's first 11 would beat us. However I feel that they are much less equipped to deal with injuries, and I do believe that no other squad in the world (I don't really know about Bayern to be fair, but their bench always looks rather weak) could cope in the league with injuries like we have this season. If you consider losing Vidic and Fletcher for a full season would be like Barce without Puyol and Busquets, then I think they'd be a much weaker team without them.
I think we've had to sacrifice some of the quality in our first 11 y'know. I think Fergie's realised that we can't perhaps afford to sign the best in the world, or we can't really sign anyone who can put us on Barce's level. I also think that our league is much much more competitive than La Liga. I realise Barce and Madrid have dropped points at times this season, but they still seem to have it easier most weeks than United have over here. Like I said I think the Premier League at the moment can boast that it has 5 of the best 10 teams in the world and some teams like Stoke or Sunderland have taken many points of the bigger clubs this year. I think in order to win the premier league which is always our priority, we've had to strengthen our overall squad, which has meant that we've got many players who are 7/8 out of 10's, but not many who can claim to be the "best in the world".
I think it's just how we've had to do it. Like I said I don't think many teams second teams could beat ours.
Da Gea/Lindegard
Rafael/Jones
Ferdinand/Smalling
Vidic/Evans
Evra/Fabio
Valencia/Young
Carrick/Anderson
Scholes/Cleverly
Nani/Giggs
Rooney/Hernandez
Welbeck/Berbatov
We've got depth in our squad, and that is what's carried us to a great premier league.
I think our first XI leaves a bit to be desired at the absolute top level, as evidenced with a fair few mediocre european performances(a bit of it is down to lack of experience, obviously).
But I do think we have a very, very strong squad as well. We have, in my view, a much stronger squad than say City. Compared to them I don't think our first XI is far off either. Over the stretch of a season, I think we're fairly superior to the City squad on paper, and I think it has shown.
Savic/Touré or Evans/Smalling as the backup CB's, anyone?
But I do think we have a very, very strong squad as well. We have, in my view, a much stronger squad than say City. Compared to them I don't think our first XI is far off either. Over the stretch of a season, I think we're fairly superior to the City squad on paper, and I think it has shown.
Savic/Touré or Evans/Smalling as the backup CB's, anyone?
I know... potentially 5 league wins out of 6... fans of any other club but ours would be absolutely delighted, but we have to come up with all sorts of reasons why we're still shit.Do people have any idea that virtually every other club in the world (except Barca) would give absolutely anything to have the trophy haul we've had in the last 6 years?
And what do you base that on, seeing as we didn't play anywhere near to our first eleven against them?
Personally, I'd say we have the better first eleven, based on the fact we could well be winning our 5th league title in 6 years, whereas Bilbao haven't won anything in about 20 years.
I can't believe some people actually think they're better than us. It's ridiculous. I suppose it means City were better than us when we won the CL and PL double in 2007/08, because they beat us twice then.
Some fans genuinely can't wrap their heads around it. In the past few years, whilst we live in a age of what many call "the greatest side ever", we've been incredibly successful, and have seen some of the best footballers in the world. Destroying clubs with untold financial backing, clubs which have won CL's, clubs that have spent much more than us.
Do people have any idea that virtually every other club in the world (except Barca) would give absolutely anything to have the trophy haul we've had in the last 6 years?
Yet some people want more. Acting like we aren't a fecking amazing football team.
I think it's because we're so so good, that past seasons remain in the memory, but when you remember the 08/99 seasons you don't remember the bad times. You don't remember starting 08 scoring 1 goal in four or something? Or how a deflection off Tevez helped get us our first win. Or you don't remember in 99 how bad some of our performances are, you just remember the heights the team hit.
So as the season goes on, a bad performance happens, and some fans act like we've never had them before. Honestly, it's like we have to play well every game.
We could get more points than any other team ever, and outscore most United sides ever, and still we're "average" and it's down to "the weakness of the premier league"
Bilbao's team are nowhere near as strong as ours. Absolutely nowhere near.
So many things wrong in this post.
Our first 11 and squad are far superior to Bilbao's. They have some outstanding young players for sure, but id fancy us to convincingly beat them in th CL next season.
Had this debate on another team's forum recently when, following the CL quarter-finals, the question was posed if Barca, Real and Bayern make up the top three teams in Europe, then who is number four? The answer almost unanimously was United.
Puyol's only played 34 league games since the start of 2010/11 (Vidic 41). I think Barcelona's experiments in defence are part of the reason why they're a few points behind Madrid this season.
Excellent post mate.
I am very surprised at that. I watch Barce quite regually, and would say he plays a lot of games. I know Masch has been impressive at the back for a while, but wouldn't have thought that.
I still think he is a massively important player for them. And him missing all of those games would certainly hinder Barcelona massively, without Busquets and Puyol, I think they'd still be a class side, but to deal with the other injuries on top of that would be very hard for that team.
I don't think Bilbao would have beaten us if it was a CL knockout. That does not excuse our performance against them or diminish their performance.
And hardly anyone underrates United as much as some here are now gloating about. Bar some muppets salivating for any new player, people have been worried about two aspects of our squad this season
- Midfield
- Goalkeeper
Goalkeeper situation has been proof of classic knee jerk nature of fans' reactions. DDG did have a blip and people prematurely wrote him off, he is doing great now but will have blips again given his age and also the fact he does need to work on couple of areas of his game.
Midfield wise, I would just say that IMO we would not have won the title this season or at least would not have a 8 points lead if Scholes had not come back. If others disagree fair enough. But without Scholes, we would have either overplayed Giggs, rushed Cleverly or Anderson back or worse tried some experiments like Park or Rooney in MF. As much as I love having Scholes back (and want him to be with us for another season at least), this does prove that people's criticism of our MF was justified before he came back. And even now those asking for a player or two to be signed in that position is very well warranted.
Other than that- defensively we have the best squad depth in the world. NQAT
As far as forwards goes- 3 great wingers. Only slight question mark now is Hernandez being able to recapture his form (a second season blip is norm) and Welbeck progressing. As it stands, we will struggle badly if Rooney is injured long term. So those two will need to step up in the coming season.
And hardly anyone underrates United as much as some here are now gloating about. Bar some muppets salivating for any new player, people have been worried about two aspects of our squad this season
- Midfield
- Goalkeeper
Goalkeeper situation has been proof of classic knee jerk nature of fans' reactions. DDG did have a blip and people prematurely wrote him off, he is doing great now but will have blips again given his age and also the fact he does need to work on couple of areas of his game.
Midfield wise, I would just say that IMO we would not have won the title this season or at least would not have a 8 points lead if Scholes had not come back. If others disagree fair enough. But without Scholes, we would have either overplayed Giggs, rushed Cleverly or Anderson back or worse tried some experiments like Park or Rooney in MF. As much as I love having Scholes back (and want him to be with us for another season at least), this does prove that people's criticism of our MF was justified before he came back. And even now those asking for a player or two to be signed in that position is very well warranted.
Other than that- defensively we have the best squad depth in the world. NQAT
As far as forwards goes- 3 great wingers. Only slight question mark now is Hernandez being able to recapture his form (a second season blip is norm) and Welbeck progressing. As it stands, we will struggle badly if Rooney is injured long term. So those two will need to step up in the coming season.
Full back positions? Rafael/Fabio, Evra, and then.. Jones? Smalling?
We could do with another option there, preferably not an injury prone player.
I don't doubt that bringing Scholes back has helped to put us in a great position to win the league. He's done wonders for us.
HoweverF letcher/Anderson/Cleverly have missed an incredible amount of games. I don't think anyone at the start of the season could have predicted they'd have all been out for so long.
.
HoweverF letcher/Anderson/Cleverly have missed an incredible amount of games. I don't think anyone at the start of the season could have predicted they'd have all been out for so long.
.
We know Anderson in particular, but also Cleverley's injury history. And we knew about Fletcher's condition. In fact, last season I'd wager his deteriorating performances probably were because of his condition.
Fletcher hardly played last season as well
This was Cleverly's first full season with us. I still maintain despite his promise, it is stupid to pin all our hopes on him yet.
Anderson, sadly, has not stepped up at all for last two seasons and is very injury prone.
Frankly even if one or two of these were available, I still think we would have missed a player of Scholes' calibre.
Looks a bit bad due to Evra's form. Otherwise it is fine unless people want to give up on Rafeal as a long term RB. Brining in another established full back to play there would just hinder his progress. As far as Evra goes, Fergie will have to take a call because this more than just a blip now. He is defensively poor in almost half the game he plays now days
A bit of cover/competition wouldn't hurt.
I still think Rafael's by far our best right full back, and possibly even our best full back either side, but there remains questions about his ability to stay fit.
Yeah, I guess sooner or later he will have his sink or swim test. If he can not overcome his fitness issues, he will probably play similar role as Wes did for some part of his career with being cover for an established full back playing ahead of him.
He's an important player for them, their only natural defender, and I felt that last season they accommodated his absence better than so far this season. And while they've missed Villa and Sanchez for large chunks of the campaign, Messi's form and to a lesser extent the goalscoring contributions from midfield through Fabregas and Xavi has more than compensated. What would be interesting would be them missing players fundamental to their style of play, be it Messi, Alves or Xavi.
You can go on and on about the league all you want, but we were an abomination in Europe this season, and given how good we've been in the last 5 years in Europe, that's not good enough. Europe showed frailties in our current squad that need to be strengthened if we want to start challenging in it again. There's no way Fergie will look back on this season as a whole and feel we've performed at a high enough level.
But there's no talking to you then, is there, seeing as you think our 2nd XI could beat any team in world football.