The real question is: how good *looking* was/is Xabi Alonso?
How good was Xabi Alonso?
- Thread starter MrEleson
- Start date
Might get slated for this, but he was a level above Carrick.
Interesting, nice post.
Totally agree. He’s the player that people think Carrick was years later. Far more impactful on games, more talented and a stronger mindset.
A brisk scan of the thread would have made it obvious that that's a pretty widely held viewpoint.
Carrick was doing multiple jobs alone in midfield and did so in a team that dominated the PL and reached multiple CL finals. Alonso shared responsibility with Mascherano and was therefore able to do the more eyecatching, flash harry stuff. Both were great players, though.
They were very very similar players, regardless of what you think about their respective levels which is up for debate. Similar strengths - passing range, vision, defensive awareness -, similar weaknesses - lack of mobility, susceptibility to pressing.
Everything you said in favour of Carrick is even more true for Alonso; particularly at Madrid from “10-13. He was the sole DM in those teams and only had Khedira next to him who was a box-to-box player and spent more time pressing in the opposition half. Alonso was the sole sitting DM for them.Exactly. Carrick actually was a one man midfield for large parts of his United career. If anything Alonso is overrated and Carrick is underrated and criminally so due to both the quality of midfield partners he played with and the tactical setup he played in for us.
Carrick was much more mobile for a start while Alonso never played at the base of any midfield due to being notoriously immobile and slow on the turn. In stark contrast, Carrick was brilliant at reading the game defensively, intercepting and snuffing out opposition counter attacks. Alonso was always partnered by at least one specialty defensive midfielder and even two at times.
People seem to only remember the wiley old Michael Carrick whose legs had all but gone, but he was an all-action player in his early days and prime. And he was asked to do tons of defensive work all the time for us as not only was he playing in a midfield two but a very open, attacking setup at that and next to Paul Scholes. So obviously he had to put a shift in to avoid the hairdryer.
And it goes without saying that Carrick’s movement, touch and passing were all top notch. Brilliant player technically. From dictating play from deep to defense-splitting through balls to majestic diagonals and balls over the top. He could run a game on his own and did many times for us with the likes of Cleverly or Gibson next to him.
Meanwhile Alonso was showponying around with at least one if not two midfielder partners doing all the real work for him. But sure Alonso had a good long ball on him. Big whoop. So did Carrick.
I feel most people in this thread didn’t watch Alonso in his early Madrid years much which is why they think he was often protected which he really wasn’t. He was doing multiple roles in midfield, at least at Madrid. He was the lynchpin of the team. I didn’t focus on him much at liverpool.
He was good enough that Gerrard was shifted to the RW while he and Mascherano were favoured at cm.
I'd say he was a similar level to Carrick and probably a fraction better.
I'd say he was a similar level to Carrick and probably a fraction better.
Agree with Demyanenko that they're not that similar players, and despite the fact Carrick is under-rated in the UK and was badly underused by England, I'd still rank Alonso comfortably above Carrick. When Alonso was at Liverpool there were a lot of debates on here comparing the two. Then when he moved to Real, while dominating international football as part of that Spain midfield (whilst Carrick's international career couldn't get out of first gear), the argument was largely settled.
Doesn't say much given Gerrard wasn't that good a CM.
But I agree with your overall assessment. Definitely disagree with this sentiment that he several notches above Carrick. For me, he was marginal better as Carrick had a tendancy to panick and struggle when pressed, and often lacked authority in his play, but was definitely better defensively. Otherwise not much between them.
I mean, it's a bit unfair to decide it on this basis. The Spainish national is perfectly suited to a DLP and produced an even better one than Alonso, in Busquets. Whereas Carrick played for that NT that gave zero fecks about possesion play and playmakers (see Scholes) let alone a DLP. Football with big names and heart on the sleave was England's thing hence that Gerrard Lampard farce.
He was second best only to Scholes at knowing when to switch the ball with pin point long passes, he was very good at reading the game, good at hard tackles.
For me he was very underrate, if he was playing now with the like of Rice quoted for 100m, he would would be 300m easy.
For me he was very underrate, if he was playing now with the like of Rice quoted for 100m, he would would be 300m easy.
You're right, I did not pay attention to other replies to this thread. Seems Xabi Alonso is duly rated around here.
Aye true, that's my take on how the two players were ranked over the years. For example we went from a split / majority preferring Carrick in 2008 and 2009 to a switch around by 2012.
I rated Alonso higher from the outset because of his attributes rather than the tournaments he got to display them in. Getting into that Spain midfield was impressive to be fair - 114 caps for the most stacked international midfield of all time - but Alonso also showed his worth in more direct set-ups (such as Rafa's Liverpool) or more gung-ho teams (like Pep's Bayern) so he certainly adapted and succeeded outwith that environment.
Handsome tax
Really rated him from the first time I saw him play for Liverpool.
Similar but slightly better version of Carrick
Similar but slightly better version of Carrick
Gerrard is rated very highly as a CM. Alonso was twice the player in that position.
That's how good he was.
And Gerrard is hyped up in that position
That's how good he was.
And Gerrard is hyped up in that position
He does seem a bit forgotten really as he was one of the premier league greats. I'd agree with those above that he was slightly above Carrick mainly because of his consistency.
When you think back to that period and compare it to now it does feel like we're going through a lack of quality midfielders. Too many get pushed into specialisms.
When you think back to that period and compare it to now it does feel like we're going through a lack of quality midfielders. Too many get pushed into specialisms.
Same way Pogba is. Their best role is at a more attacking position where their lack of tactical discipline wouldn't harm their team but people keep saying they're world class at CM despite their performances showing otherwise.
Nah he was a key player for the monotonously boring defensive game they played, where they used to pass the ball around for a long period of time in the hope of not losing possession and not allowing opposition the ball, and when they lost the ball, he was the key man to come to rescue. While the double pivot with Busquets meant Spain rarely played the attacking game, but he was key for the defensive approach they went.
Also let us not forget his stint in Bundesliga when Pep turned him into a CB/DM pivot hybrid, or something crazy that only Pepe can. He played some of his best football there.
A player all good teams need.Bit like Carrick in that he is probably more fondly remembered post retirement, due to the lack of quality players in that position anymore.
If you are referring to the Lavolpiana buildup with the holding midfielder positioning himself between the CBs, that is something Mourinho instructed Xabi Alonso to do since 2011.
I will never forget his Bayern debut against Schalke. As far as i remember he came to Bayern 2 days before that game and had only one training session and Pep still decided to play him in the starting 11 and Alonso showed a masterclass.
He broke the Bundesliga record for most touches in that game. Certainly one of the best Bundesliga debuts ever.
Can you tell a bit more in detail about the attributes that feature in your thinking? More expansive range of passing perhaps, with his sort of trademark accurate raking passes? Other than that, I do not really find much else that is different.
I find it quite amusing how all it took was for Alonso to move away from Liverpool before this forum had an objective outlook on him.
Alonso was one of the best midfielders in the world from 2008/09 to 2013/14. He was awarded La Liga midfielder of the year in 2011-12, when he was the linchpin of a side that scored 100 points in the league and ended Guardiola’s dominance.
As for his international career, he didn’t play much at Euro 2008 and he was merely decent at World Cup 2010. However, at Euro 2012 he was immense. He was phenomenal that tournament, easily a top 5 player.
If you judge them solely by their Premier League career, then Alonso vs Carrick is up for debate. If you judge them by their entire careers, then there is no debate because Alonso is so far ahead. What he achieved with Real Madrid and for Spain puts him miles above Carrick.
I never liked Alonso when he played in La Liga because of his ugly fouls and constant moaning to the referee in every Classico, but looking back now I can rate him more objectively as one of the best midfielders of his generation.
Regardless of how he compares to anyone, he could ping the ball as well as anyone I've seen. Beautiful long passes
It wasn't just his beautiful long passes. He had the ability to see an attack and initiate it. He was a conductor in the truest sense.
Also, read books and had a great taste in music, movies and TV-series.
He is what everyone thinks Pirlo is. An actual cool bloke.
Also, read books and had a great taste in music, movies and TV-series.
He is what everyone thinks Pirlo is. An actual cool bloke.
Based on their PL careers there is no debate whatsoever. Carrick was defensively superior, physically more robust (but not that strong himself) and played at the highest level for a team with real pressure and expectations, and was a vital vog in elite football club's most/second most successful era. He also did not need a Mascherano to screen the defence, and then a Gerrard to drive the attack so he could focus on just playmaking.
I do think Alonso was marginally better than Carrick as a whole as I think he could deal with the press better which was Carrick's big weakness aside from lacking authority. But their PL careers/levels, in hindsight, were not the same.
Btw, what did Alonso achieve for Madrid, that Carrick didn't for United? We were the dominant force in a very strong PL. Madrid were second best in La Liga and won 1 league and 1 CL with him, I believe? Spain is the differentiator but let's face it, England was a cemetery for playmakers back then.
Alonso played with Lass Diarra as well as Khedira during those years prior to the arrival of Modric. Lass of course was an out and out ball winner. And while Khedira may not be your typical CDM player, that was his chief concern in that Madrid team… to do all of the running Alonso couldn’t. And furthermore, if Alonso was so solid why did Mourinho run Pepe out in CDM in Clasico matches ?
To claim Alonso suddenly became some lynchpin all-action DM as soon as he joined Madrid is just plain wrong. He thrived as a DLP in that team, but he was still the same player he was for Liverpool. Immobile, susceptible to counters and vulnerable to the press. The only change was the superiority of his team to a league which was much less intense than the Prem.
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That Xabi Alonso-Momo Sisokko-Gerard-Mascherano combo was unreal. Hate the catchy chant as well.
A couple of points:
1. Alonso played as defensive midfielder during virtually his entire Madrid stint. His midfield partners were Khedira and then Modric, two traditional box to box midfielders. Alonso was almost always the deepest midfielder for Madrid.
2. What Alonso achieved for Madrid is more than just trophy count. He was the linchpin of the team that stopped Guardiola’s Barcelona and the team that ended Madrid’s draught the Champions League. Two monumental triumphs in Madrid’s history.
I agree that Carrick was unlucky that England did not always value players like him, but at the end of the day, the difference between Alonso and Carrick’s international careers is so ridiculously vast that it simply cannot be ignored.
Carrick managed 34 caps for England when his competition was Barry. Alonso managed 114 caps for Spain and won 3 international trophies when he was competing for a position in the most stacked midfield of all time.
Playing next to Khedira /Modric/Diarra is not the same responsibility as playing next to an ageing (but magnificent) Scholes in a two man midfield.
Two very good achievements. But that Madrid team spent a lot to get there and had many more important players. It's not like that success wasnt coming. And like I said, we won 5 league titles in 7 years and won a CL and made 2 more finals, hence looking at their successes more romantically as if it held some greater significance is incorrect imo. Carrick achieved much more in their respective club careers, and always faced top level pressure throughout.
Definitely would not ignore it. But it has to be viewed in the the context of the team. In no reality /planet/galaxy, does Barry get picked over Carrick as a footballer. But if the team has no place for playmakers and prefers muscle and hustle then this is what you get. Liverpool didn't replace Alonso with Barry as he was comparable either. I agree that Alonso's international achievements - it's more euro 2012 I think - cannot be disregarded. But I've seen enough of the English NT to know that certain kinds of players didn't suit their methods.
For the same reason, while I'd tate Xavi higher, the 'vast' difference in his international career vs Scholes does not represent the quality of the two footballers at all.
That would be the main one. His vision was exceptional, not just evidenced by his long passing, but the long-range goals he scored. There are not many players who play at the base of midfield who have a picture of the game both around them and 30-50 yards ahead. In general he struck the ball a little sweeter whether it was through shots from range, free-kicks or longer passing. I think his short game - his ability to kickstart moves from the base of midfield and link up with those around him - is an area Carrick excelled in - but where Alonso was marginally cleaner. And that's because of how pivotal he was to Mourinho's Real, to Pep's Bayern and how seamlessly he dropped into that Spain midfield. There was a lot demanded of central midfielders for Spain in terms of their touch in tight areas, positioning and awareness - to the extent that the Premier League's finest playmaking midfeilder at the time in Fabregas looked more comfortable further forward for the national team. Yet Alonso didn't really miss a beat and, as Infordin says, really shone at Euro 2012 in particular. Off the ball I'd rate Carrick higher in as far as he was more capable of tracking runs without resorting to fouls as regularly.
Carrick has to be one of those players who post retirement gain a revisionist view, I liked him, but come on, we always used to cry for a new midfield, I mean when Anderson and Cleverley looked like a solid midfield for a brief period, many were happy to relegate Carrick to bench.
No, saying he was the lynchpin in the team isn’t plain wrong. Yes, Khedira was there doing all the running but Alonso was the deepest midfielder and was the sole player screening the defence; making timely interceptions and mopping up play. Khedira wasnt that defensively astute or disciplined and did most of his work in the opposition’s half.
Also, Mourinho playing Pepe in midfield has zilch to do with Alonso’s defensive acumen. Mourinho was just going all out with his anti-football, ultra defensive style. He was simply afraid of Pep’s Barca. Had absolutely nothing to do with any liability Alonso was. By the way, those tactics failed and Mourinho actually had his best results against Barca in the following 2 seasons where he just kept it simple and played the same set-up he usually played against other La Liga teams with Alonso & Khedira as the double pivot. In his last season, he went 4 games unbeaten against the Catalan side with that midfield. The only thing I would agree with is; he did actually lack
mobility and was susceptible to the press as was Carrick.
I think Alonso was better than Carrick and I do think he was important for Real Madrid, but other players were far more important than him once they finally broke through and won La Decima.
Ronaldo, Modric, Ramos were inarguably more important than him in 2014. You could argue Pepe, Bale and Di Maria were more important as well.
He was very good though. I think he is generally underrated as time has passed by. He was pretty good for Bayern Munich under Pep as well.
I do think Busquets is a level above him, because he was far more press resistant and more mobile. I always thought it was negligent that Spain played both of them, but they still won regardless.
Ronaldo, Modric, Ramos were inarguably more important than him in 2014. You could argue Pepe, Bale and Di Maria were more important as well.
He was very good though. I think he is generally underrated as time has passed by. He was pretty good for Bayern Munich under Pep as well.
I do think Busquets is a level above him, because he was far more press resistant and more mobile. I always thought it was negligent that Spain played both of them, but they still won regardless.
Pepe wasn’t that good (wasn’t at his usual level) in the 13/14 CL campaign and he almost cost Madrid in the 2nd leg against Dortmund.
Alonso wasn’t as key as the other players you mentioned but it’s hard for any player to top the contributions of Ronaldo and Ramos that season. Modric was just a superior midfielder in general.
However, they did sorely miss Alonso in the final when he was suspended and almost lost the match if not for the last minute equaliser. So he was still a very key player.
Hardly some groundbreaking thing. Who has 2 players sitting in front of the defence those days? Its a very negative tactic and Khedira is namely a holding midfielder. I know Alonso wasn't protected as he was often the one sitting but he was also dribbled by the most in the league!
That is a fair point at the end. They did sorely miss him in the final.