Similar to the "How to get better at breaking down deep sides" thread, what's your suggestion on how to get better at beating an organised press. We've gotten better at breaking down deep sides but the struggle to bypass an organised press still persists
How to get better at bypassing an organised press?
- Thread starter jamesjimmybyrondean
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Bring back Fellaini
In all seriousness, someone physically powerful to play direct balls into would be the solution.
In all seriousness, someone physically powerful to play direct balls into would be the solution.
a good starting point would be to have some god dam urgency in moving the ball instead of sitting there with the ball like they've got all afternoon to pass it. We could maybe have used some more long balls from Maguire or Matic when he was deep with how high they play. It's low percentage passes but we've got the speed to at least make it threaten their back line.
Learn how to pass the ball with one touch and move fast. Don't keep the ball in your legs for more than a part of second.
Rondos
Quick counters esp. like yesterday when Southampton were pressing with huge number of players high up the field. Yesterday was just an off day as those counters didn't come off as Bruno and Pogba were having a very off day.
Having players good at holding the ball and excellent composure is necessary, which is why it made sense on paper to start with Pogba and Matic.
On hindsight I would have preferred to see Rashford and Greenwood work the channels and stay high up the pitch, so we can resort to a long pass and beat a high press that way. I felt they drifted normal amounts but that inward movement into pockets meant we had to play it out on the floor every time, and we weren't very good at it.
On hindsight I would have preferred to see Rashford and Greenwood work the channels and stay high up the pitch, so we can resort to a long pass and beat a high press that way. I felt they drifted normal amounts but that inward movement into pockets meant we had to play it out on the floor every time, and we weren't very good at it.
Just observe a 10 min segment of Utd trying to pass out of a press...the answer is glaringly obvious!
As a team, our players take far too many touches on the ball encouraging the opposition to not only get closer but also safe in the knowledge that they can hunt in packs with little fear of being outnumbered in defence as they can quickly get behind the ball again before we can recycle forward.
All the good teams take one touch to control, and second to move the ball on...we take 3/4 touches before passing.
As a team, our players take far too many touches on the ball encouraging the opposition to not only get closer but also safe in the knowledge that they can hunt in packs with little fear of being outnumbered in defence as they can quickly get behind the ball again before we can recycle forward.
All the good teams take one touch to control, and second to move the ball on...we take 3/4 touches before passing.
I don't know why we don't go direct much quicker when things look bad. I admire Ole's dedication towards playing it out but in-game you surely have to adjust if you keep giving the ball away.
We did this against Pool too where (I think beginning of second half) in the away game, they turned on the high press and we didn't react at all for like 10 mins where they had two good chances.
Just lump it further up the field even at the cost of possession and try to win it back. Not many teams in the PL can play through our press without mistakes.
We did this against Pool too where (I think beginning of second half) in the away game, they turned on the high press and we didn't react at all for like 10 mins where they had two good chances.
Just lump it further up the field even at the cost of possession and try to win it back. Not many teams in the PL can play through our press without mistakes.
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They would still struggle if left in CM against 4/5 opposition players pressing. If you look at the best sides who play out from the back they do not rely on just the physicality of the player. Its more about how the team shape is setup and the technical quality of all the players. Including the keeper CB, and fullbacks who are extremely important
Go direct (aka hoof), and then counter press and win the ball high up, and continue your attack. If you notice yesterday that's how Southampton were able to mount sustained pressure on us. They didn't care about playing out of the back at all, they knew they'd win the ball high up anyway.
So the players expended most of their energy in counter pressing. Not tracking back, not playing out. Just camping in our half, pressing the heck out of us, and hoofing it whenever they won the ball after we sustained an attack. Very smart and effective strategy, and it can be a good leveler against a more talented team. Liverpool does it a lot as well.
So the players expended most of their energy in counter pressing. Not tracking back, not playing out. Just camping in our half, pressing the heck out of us, and hoofing it whenever they won the ball after we sustained an attack. Very smart and effective strategy, and it can be a good leveler against a more talented team. Liverpool does it a lot as well.
Get a new RB. That would help.
If Bruno's acquisition taught us anything its that there is no substitute for class. Yes McT and Fred are decent but look at the difference that Bruno's made.
AWB is not even decent when it comes to passing. Hes horrendous and uncomfortable on the ball. Just someone decent would go a long way.
Also Henderson over De Gea would help in this department. Not as much as a new RB of course. GK is a GK after all but it would still help.
If Bruno's acquisition taught us anything its that there is no substitute for class. Yes McT and Fred are decent but look at the difference that Bruno's made.
AWB is not even decent when it comes to passing. Hes horrendous and uncomfortable on the ball. Just someone decent would go a long way.
Also Henderson over De Gea would help in this department. Not as much as a new RB of course. GK is a GK after all but it would still help.
How to get better at organised press? By not giving up when you make a mistake. City are the best at it in the league but their defenders made mistakes too while learning how to beat the press and they had Pep as manager. It took some time to master it.
This is not something which you learn it very quickly, just how wing play was so much important for Manutd style of attack, playing from the back should be followed religiously if we want to be good at it.
We need team to move as a team and help others by giving them passing option. When our CB was pressed, we had 1 CM who wanted to help, when that CM was covered by other players we didn't have anyone who became option for CB.
Our players should also trust each other and should rely on one twos instead of trying to dribble past players in our own half.
This is not something which you learn it very quickly, just how wing play was so much important for Manutd style of attack, playing from the back should be followed religiously if we want to be good at it.
We need team to move as a team and help others by giving them passing option. When our CB was pressed, we had 1 CM who wanted to help, when that CM was covered by other players we didn't have anyone who became option for CB.
Our players should also trust each other and should rely on one twos instead of trying to dribble past players in our own half.
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Theres no team that can maintain high press during the whole game without fatigue, the solution is easy, but not so easy to implement, fast one touch passes, let them run for the ball. Eventually theyll leave spaces at the back which we can take advantage from.
Of course you need technicall players to do this, one mistake and you just left yourself in a very weak position.
Of course you need technicall players to do this, one mistake and you just left yourself in a very weak position.
Yeah, but for us who have fairly average players on the ball at the back a physical presence would be the solution.
I'm just not seeing how it would be the solution. Physicality doesn't stop you getting pressed especially if your team mates are average on the ball. One player isn't going to make a team press resistant either.
We either improve the technical ability of players in key positions or we bypass the press and go long.
As well as adapting the shape of the team when dealing with the press which is probably the most important
In all honesty we need to practice, games like last night are important and shows to the coaching staff where we're at and how much work we need to do. I think we've been better at it at other points of the season, we kept messing around with it needlessly last night, not sure what we were thinking really. De Gea really needs to come off his line more, causes a lot of unnecessary panic when he stays rooted to the spot, even the Southampton keeper came out 3/4 times.
A dribbling defender or DM, or go direct. Also, use the flanks more. FB's won't want to mark too closely because of how fast we are out wide...
You might be joking, but Fellini's actually the only legitimate solution the club has found to this problem in the last 7 or more years.
It's not only about bypassing a press, but also winning 2nd and 3rd balls. Once you recover the ball, you have to make quick and incisive passes that break the lines and allow your team to go forward before the opposition can get back into a decent defensive shape. United were a bit too sloppy yesterday, but didn't do too bad.
The spatial awareness and space relative to the ball, your teammate positioning, and distance between your teammate on the ball and teammates will always be important when breaking lines of a press.
The spatial awareness and space relative to the ball, your teammate positioning, and distance between your teammate on the ball and teammates will always be important when breaking lines of a press.
Sign Ndidi and Ake
Well that would be the best solution but limited to the best players. The most frequent solution to the be more direct and physical, which is why Liverpool spent so much on an aerially dominant centre back to protect against that tactic.
Getting better full backs with good touch and who are comfortable on the ball would help a lot. Players like Evra could provide us an outlet.
In the current team though, against high press teams where we are likely to play counter-attacking, I wonder if its better to play Fred/Mctominay along with Matic and sacrifice one of the front 5. That could certainly provide more protection at the back.
In the current team though, against high press teams where we are likely to play counter-attacking, I wonder if its better to play Fred/Mctominay along with Matic and sacrifice one of the front 5. That could certainly provide more protection at the back.
Rewatch the City Liverpool game at the Etihad in 18/19. Both teams in that game put up a lesson on how to press and also beat the others press.
We actually attempted the right thing, generally. I think a better ball playing CB offers more protection though.
The ball out to Pogba was almost the right idea, he messed up though. Once you receive it there you can play the ball into the channels for the likes of Rashford, Greenwood or James.
The problem with the ball to Pogba was that Pogba came too deep and there wasn't a forward facing alternative so he had to turn.
This is where the double pivot need to work together and always provide the alternative pass with movement. All it would have took was Pogba to be able to roll it across to Matic to hit the channel.
It also takes players making the right decision, DeGea should have read that it wasn't ideal for Pogba to receive it there and bypassed him with the space he had created by dropping deep.
We'll get better at it but a better CB and GK would help a lot.
The ball out to Pogba was almost the right idea, he messed up though. Once you receive it there you can play the ball into the channels for the likes of Rashford, Greenwood or James.
The problem with the ball to Pogba was that Pogba came too deep and there wasn't a forward facing alternative so he had to turn.
This is where the double pivot need to work together and always provide the alternative pass with movement. All it would have took was Pogba to be able to roll it across to Matic to hit the channel.
It also takes players making the right decision, DeGea should have read that it wasn't ideal for Pogba to receive it there and bypassed him with the space he had created by dropping deep.
We'll get better at it but a better CB and GK would help a lot.
Yesterday was about taking chances. The press wasn't much of an issue. Rashford in front of goal and Martial in front of the keeper, that's what made the difference.
Oh so what you meant was a physical presence up top to go direct to?
Even though it was AWB breaking the press with the ball into Pogba which allowed for our second goal if I recall correctly.
Ole is hardly the first coach to take play-it-from-the-back to absurd levels for too long. I understand the concept, and it has its uses for stretching their defense back out to give your offense space, but even if it's your go-to (I personally don't like it and think it should be an alternative plan to keep the defense honest), you have to recognize when it's not working and start pushing it forward fast, starting with the keeper. Gregg Berhalter, US Mens Team manager, will stick to it to his own demise, and I've seen other managers do it, too.
Southampton showed that they were vulnerable up front - we didn't take advantage of it.
What Sir Alex would do is to have an attacking minded team with a solid defence. The latter was needed to allow the team to focus on what it does best ie attack. Its team was made up of players who used to have a wide skillset. You had Beckham who was a magnificent crosser of the ball, Scholes whose passing and eye to goal was second to none, Giggs who was the prototype of what we now call the inside forward. If Cole/Yorke duo didn't work out then he could switch to an old fashioned but still effective mezzapunta and goal poacher system thanks to Teddy and Ole.
So how would Sir Alex work with this team?
GK: DDG would remain for at least another year. Henderson would be loaned for another year and then brought back as a first teamer.
Def: Sir Alex used to like to have a defensive full back and 2 top quality CBs. That gave him a solid defence he needed for his team. If he had that though, he'll aim for a wingback to compliment that whether it's a young Gaz (who complimented Stam-Johnsen and an ageing Irwin) or Evra (who complimented Wes, Rio and Vidic). Therefore I think he would be looking for a pacey CB whose good in air and an attacking minded fullback
DM: Sir Alex always hated the DM role. He said that himself. He felt that since United are attacking most of the time, then having a DM meant not utilising the full potential of the side. I think that Sir Alex would have shown Matic the door and then he would go on and play a more mobile player who can both attack and defend. I think that the old man would insist on McT until he shapes him in the player he wants. Sir Alex could quite stubborn on his choices. He showed an immense amount of patience with both Gaz and Fletcher.
DLP: Under Sir Alex Pogba would be a goner. Its not about his agent, their history, yada yada but more about the fact that Pogba is pretty much useless defensive wise.. Sir Alex would go for a hardworking attacking box 2 box midfielder who might not be as technically gifted as Pogba is but would offer more workrate and would release the ball earlier then Pogba does. I think he would go for VDB or Grealish.
AMC: Bruno is as a typical Sir Alex type of player. He'll probably make him captain.
RW: If the club can afford Sancho then he'll go for him. Else he'll stick to Greenwood
LW: James and Rashford would be fine
STK: I think that Sir Alex would go for a striker with a different skillset to Martial's but who wouldn't mind a bit of time on the bench. Calvert-Lewin maybe?
So how would Sir Alex work with this team?
GK: DDG would remain for at least another year. Henderson would be loaned for another year and then brought back as a first teamer.
Def: Sir Alex used to like to have a defensive full back and 2 top quality CBs. That gave him a solid defence he needed for his team. If he had that though, he'll aim for a wingback to compliment that whether it's a young Gaz (who complimented Stam-Johnsen and an ageing Irwin) or Evra (who complimented Wes, Rio and Vidic). Therefore I think he would be looking for a pacey CB whose good in air and an attacking minded fullback
DM: Sir Alex always hated the DM role. He said that himself. He felt that since United are attacking most of the time, then having a DM meant not utilising the full potential of the side. I think that Sir Alex would have shown Matic the door and then he would go on and play a more mobile player who can both attack and defend. I think that the old man would insist on McT until he shapes him in the player he wants. Sir Alex could quite stubborn on his choices. He showed an immense amount of patience with both Gaz and Fletcher.
DLP: Under Sir Alex Pogba would be a goner. Its not about his agent, their history, yada yada but more about the fact that Pogba is pretty much useless defensive wise.. Sir Alex would go for a hardworking attacking box 2 box midfielder who might not be as technically gifted as Pogba is but would offer more workrate and would release the ball earlier then Pogba does. I think he would go for VDB or Grealish.
AMC: Bruno is as a typical Sir Alex type of player. He'll probably make him captain.
RW: If the club can afford Sancho then he'll go for him. Else he'll stick to Greenwood
LW: James and Rashford would be fine
STK: I think that Sir Alex would go for a striker with a different skillset to Martial's but who wouldn't mind a bit of time on the bench. Calvert-Lewin maybe?
Sign players that suit this style better. At the moment none of our starting back 5 is actually good at doing it and they're not likely to suddenly get significantly better at it regardless of their training. A more mobile defensive midfielder is a bonus, but it's not the main point of concern.
As has been said already, it's the speed of the passing, we're too cautious. Needs to be faster and more diagonals/between the lines.
Make 3 quick passes and you're almost always past the first press, sometimes the second and running at the opposition who are then back-pedalling and having to readjust. At that point, it's with our front 5 who I'd fancy to create chances against pretty much anyone.
Make 3 quick passes and you're almost always past the first press, sometimes the second and running at the opposition who are then back-pedalling and having to readjust. At that point, it's with our front 5 who I'd fancy to create chances against pretty much anyone.
That's taking it too far given that we have become much better at handling pressing and playing on fast counter attack given our victories against our rivals in the PL this season. We just need to become even better at the back with passing and movement.
Spray play wide.
Have players who can play under the press.
Have players who can play under the press.
Very harsh on Luke Shaw that. I'm not his biggest fan but I think he's very good under pressure including last night. His touch is usually excellent
Southampton had some good results from the high press in the first 10 -15 minutes of the game but then we went up a gear and they didn't have much until our subs post 60th minute so I don't know what the purpose of this thread is because we can clearly already do it.
Shaw's touch is fine but he could have better mobility. Plus we should eventually get another RB too
Yes that is the tactical way of dealing with the press but obviously Martial should remain our striker so maybe a physical wide player would be a better option
Very much agree on that. You can point many flaws in Shaw's game but that is not one of it. He is generally very good under pressure. Answering to the question maybe having more than one person on the midfield will help. Matic was dropping deep and was playing as 3rd CB when we were moving the ball out and Bruno was way forward playing almost as second striker. This meant Pogba was the only one on the middle and they were like 5 of them pressing him.
It was pretty obvious Pogba would be a likely candidate to be caught on the ball and cost us a goal. I mean it’s just his game and his style. Happens afew times a season. Against a pressing team like them he’s a weak link purely because of his nonchalant style in a now deeper playing position. Worth it Over the course of a season.