Fair points. I think the key is like in poker, protect your chips when you have bad hands, and play aggressive when your hands are good. We need to expect and mitigate the 30 mins of extreme pressing and wait for the fatigue. Pogba and De Gea obviously messed up and led to a goal. Towards the end we also didn't have any clear tactic to counter it apart from hang on for dear life it seemed.
How to get better at bypassing an organised press?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Sad but true.
Matic has been good and is a good player but replacing him with a better footballer would go a long way in beating the press.
I agree, and added to this I think our passing and ball handling in the back line and midfield was worse than normal. Also Martials goal came from United playing through the press so the high press actually cost them a goal.
It comes down to personnel in the end. The De Gea, Lindelof, Wan Bissaka triangle will always be a target for the opposition press. Pogba and Matic don't help matters.
We made hard work of this yesterday, very languid on the ball, slow buildup against a team like Southampton just plays into their hands.
Quicker balls out to the wing and play back around it. We did it a few time’s and we got behind them quite easily. Like I say I think we were off the pace yesterday and it bit us in the arse, unforgivable really. Still fuming.
Quicker balls out to the wing and play back around it. We did it a few time’s and we got behind them quite easily. Like I say I think we were off the pace yesterday and it bit us in the arse, unforgivable really. Still fuming.
Stop fecking around at the back.
I have not given a huge amount of analysis to this but it seems a flaw in Bruno game. Versus Tottenham we were struggling and he did not come deeper to help out. Yesterday was the same. Of course his best attributes are closer to goal and he may not feel comfortable with the low risk consistent play needed in the middle of the park. However it can make our lives very tough when the top 4 stay high.
Yeah there was a 10 minute spell where we seemed to work it out and we scored in this period. Moved it out wide pulled them out which freed space centrally for Pogba.
For some reason we stopped doing this and let them get back in to their shape way too often.
I think there were a few things wrong with us, Maguire, Lindelof and especially Bissaka looked terrified under the preasure and were being forced in to mistake. Matic isn’t the best on the turn and he’s like a Jeckyl and Hyde character sometimes where he’ll dance past people hold the, off and pretty much laugh in their faces. Next time everything is bouncing off him he’s falling over and scrambling in a panic and just getting caught on the ball dreaming.
DeGea‘s passing is almost non existent now and he too keeps making very poor passes out putting the defenders under preasure. Lastly feel like Bruno was maybe too far forward and we weren’t providing enough options for our defence to pass out.
For some reason we stopped doing this and let them get back in to their shape way too often.
I think there were a few things wrong with us, Maguire, Lindelof and especially Bissaka looked terrified under the preasure and were being forced in to mistake. Matic isn’t the best on the turn and he’s like a Jeckyl and Hyde character sometimes where he’ll dance past people hold the, off and pretty much laugh in their faces. Next time everything is bouncing off him he’s falling over and scrambling in a panic and just getting caught on the ball dreaming.
DeGea‘s passing is almost non existent now and he too keeps making very poor passes out putting the defenders under preasure. Lastly feel like Bruno was maybe too far forward and we weren’t providing enough options for our defence to pass out.
Get a holding mid that can receive the ball under heavy pressure or hoof the damn thing.
To bypass press you need players to do 121s. Perfect example is Luke Shaw and Martial combining together when Rashford scored an offside goal.
Just put Williams at RB. Kid has a decent first touch and can fluidly move with the ball.
Agreed. Once we actually woke up and started playing properly we weren't having too much trouble with their pressing. We pinned them back so they actually weren't able to press us all that well.
It did throw us off at the beginning though, so we need to handle it better straight away.
People need to have urgency. For example , Maguire takes an age to make passes. Nothing more annoying than seeing a guy take 5 passes the make the same pass he could have made with his first or second touch. Every second count when a team is pressing you.
Our build up doesnt really accelerate until Pogba gets on the ball.
Our build up doesnt really accelerate until Pogba gets on the ball.
Shaw is incredibly comfortable on the ball for a fullback. He's the least of our problems. I was saying it yesterday as I watched the game: our CDM, the one who is meant to link our defense to our midfield/attack won't receive the ball in tight areas. Matic needs space to operate, which is why he only picked up the ball when he's occupying a fullback or a centreback's position, and in doing so, he removes an option for our players to pass to and frees an opposition player to help squeeze us.
If we don't have enough passing avenues then it's incredibly easy to stop us playing out. The ball ends up being pushed out wide and we eventually back ourselves into a corner.
We actually had a very similar problem at the opposite end before Bruno arrived. No player was willing to receive the ball under pressure in the hole. So we ended up pushing the ball out wide and then forced to go back. We became easy to play against because our players never had enough options on the ball.
Change system to 433.
4231 is boring and too limited.
It's all about triangles/diamonds, and position + possession transition.
We already have the players.
We train with too much rondo, good but don't know how to use with a boring system.
4231 is boring and too limited.
It's all about triangles/diamonds, and position + possession transition.
=========
Possession Deepest
Martial
Rashford -------------------- Greenwood
Pogba --- Bruno
Shaw ------------- Matic --------- AWB
Maguire -------- Lindelof
DDG
=========
Build-up
Rashford -------------------- Greenwood
Martial
Shaw ------------------------------ AWB
Pogba --- Bruno
Maguire ----- Matic ----- Lindelof
DDG
=========
Mid Possession
Martial
Rashford --------- Greenwood
Shaw ------ Pogba ---- Bruno ------ AWB
Maguire ------Matic----- Lindelof
DDG
=========
^ There ya go, better triangles for quick one-touch and two-touches passings at the back to the front.Possession Deepest
Martial
Rashford -------------------- Greenwood
Pogba --- Bruno
Shaw ------------- Matic --------- AWB
Maguire -------- Lindelof
DDG
=========
Build-up
Rashford -------------------- Greenwood
Martial
Shaw ------------------------------ AWB
Pogba --- Bruno
Maguire ----- Matic ----- Lindelof
DDG
=========
Mid Possession
Martial
Rashford --------- Greenwood
Shaw ------ Pogba ---- Bruno ------ AWB
Maguire ------Matic----- Lindelof
DDG
=========
We already have the players.
We train with too much rondo, good but don't know how to use with a boring system.
Another thing I noticed yesterday was that Greenwood and Rashford were dropping too deep to provide a passing option. This actually makes it harder to cut through the press because the opposition full back then can just follow them down our end of the pitch to add another pressing body.
They need to stay up and keep the opposition full back at bay, it's the full backs who need to push out wider and further up.
They need to stay up and keep the opposition full back at bay, it's the full backs who need to push out wider and further up.
At the time I felt Rashford was doing that to provide Shaw - who was doing what you suggested - with a quick option.
On the right side it seemed clear AWB had been told to stay back and I agree Greenwood had been clearly told to do the same as well. The staff probably learned a few things yesterday and are coming up with new ideas.
Good coaching which comes from employing top of the class coaches
This again. Last year it was said that we just needed a ball playing CB and we'd be fine. The solution to everything isn't to buy your way out of the problem or poorer teams would concede 10 every game. Teams beat press with give and gos , one-twos and drilled passing trinagles. Organised passing beats organised pressing
Or maybe it is a tactical thing that we want him to play as almost a 4th forward and we made a error by leaving big gap on the middle against a well drilled team that can press as a unit. On his debut he played deeper after Andreas had a stinker and did well. I have no doubt he can play that position and haven't seen him try risky passes near our own half. He does that mostly on the final third or when we are on the counter. We should have played with middle three in this game which would have helped us as they were attacking us and leaving spaces behind for Martial Rashford and Mason to run all day. Little bit of control on the middle and we probably would have scored 4 or 5.
You need players who are not only good technically but also have the mobility against a high press. I've been saying for weeks now that our current back line is very vulnerable to the high press especially Matic who is a liability in such a scenario. Not only are we vulnerable to a high press but our back line can't enforce one with the exception of Luke Shaw who is technically the best player in the backline IMO.
Two players who have the requisite attributes and are adept at resisting and enforcing a high press need to be targeted for the style Ole wants to play. I've been saying for a long time that Zakaria and Konate should be bought because they have the experience and know how to make things function in a team that wants to play out from the back and enforce the high press.
Would any of our back line and Matic get into Nagelsmann's RB Leipzig team? My answer is No and therein lies the issues.
Two players who have the requisite attributes and are adept at resisting and enforcing a high press need to be targeted for the style Ole wants to play. I've been saying for a long time that Zakaria and Konate should be bought because they have the experience and know how to make things function in a team that wants to play out from the back and enforce the high press.
Would any of our back line and Matic get into Nagelsmann's RB Leipzig team? My answer is No and therein lies the issues.
On an individual level, yes the team performed below. The biggest problem is coaching quite simply.
There needs to be precise instructions. I said it in another thread but there's too much freedom and trust from Ole to 'let them play it out' at the moment.
There needs to be precise instructions. I said it in another thread but there's too much freedom and trust from Ole to 'let them play it out' at the moment.
Ummm ... Fellini was never a legitimate solution to any problem this club has ever had, with perhaps one exception; when we were desperate for a goal and we had resorted to a long balling the box because not only could we not play out from the back, but were pretty shitty playing through the middle or down the flanks either! It's been a tough 7 years!
Great point. City do get caught from time to time. Most recently Debruner got caught in a spot much like Pogba did and it cost them a goal too ... I can't recall the game exactly but I think Citeh lost that match! Regardless, you don't just give up on the concept, you learn and grow and improve (and sure, maybe get better players in) I do think we tried to mix it up with some longer balls but it's a learning process and we've really only enjoyed success of late with Bruno's emergence along with Matic and Pogba we do have the technical skill and also have real pace/skill up front. We just fell short last night so need patience ... but we only have three league games left; damned if we do, damned if we don't. Based on our recent successes (Upteen unbeaten in all comps and a ton more goals for, than against) I suggest we stick with it!
I think the answer is tactical. Too often when Southampton pressed us, Pogba was the only outlet to the defence. Surely, if you want to beat the high press coming out with possession of the ball, you have to have more options. For example Bruno was nowhere to be seen in these situations, he was too far forward for me, and then usually struggled to retain the ball when he got it. Maybe our wide players Rashford and Greenwood would also have to come short at times to give us more numbers.
The other answer could be to get better at finding each other quickly. If you need time on the ball to string together passes and move the ball forward, then you're going to struggle with the press.
The other answer could be to get better at finding each other quickly. If you need time on the ball to string together passes and move the ball forward, then you're going to struggle with the press.
Sir Alex's genius was moving on with the times and understanding that football changes which meant he had to as well. He did not have to face teams that press like today, nor did he face teams with the same level of technique and skill as today. He moulded his '90s teams to deal with the physical challenge of the PL at the time and then switched things around in the '00s to deal with the tactical challenge presented by the likes of Mourinho and Benitez. He never had a one fit for all formula to address all challenges because the challenges are ever changing. Trying therefore to apply some of his preferences at a certain point in time is futile since that goes against the very reason he lasted as long as he did.
Bruno and Pogba are both world class players, and amongst the best in Europe at a specific range of qualities. Unfortunately, press-resistance isn't one of them
If we want to get better at bypassing a press, we need at least 2 or 3 players ahead of the CBs who can receive the ball securely under pressure. I don't know how to achieve that, mind you. New players or new tactics are the two obvious answers. In the short term, an easy solution to a press might be to ask Bruno, Pogba and Greenwood to drop in while Rashford and Martial push up. It's a compromise that hurts our width, but at least retains the counterattacking threat whilst offering extra bodies in midfield.
In fairness to Ole, even Fergie struggled with this conundrum at times in Europe - even with his own best teams. It was our Achilles heel back, and is again now.
If we want to get better at bypassing a press, we need at least 2 or 3 players ahead of the CBs who can receive the ball securely under pressure. I don't know how to achieve that, mind you. New players or new tactics are the two obvious answers. In the short term, an easy solution to a press might be to ask Bruno, Pogba and Greenwood to drop in while Rashford and Martial push up. It's a compromise that hurts our width, but at least retains the counterattacking threat whilst offering extra bodies in midfield.
In fairness to Ole, even Fergie struggled with this conundrum at times in Europe - even with his own best teams. It was our Achilles heel back, and is again now.
From memory, I think we actually did well a few times and created counter attack chances when either De Gea or one of our CB received the ball and quickly lobbed it to Shaw/Rashford on the left and they had miles of space to run into to bypass their 3-5 men press.
Though I think where we failed was that apart from Matic, and sometimes Pogba, there were just no passing options, Bruno was a little too high up and Southampton managed to close down the angles for Matic and Pogba quite well.
Maybe Bruno, Rashford and Greenwood just had to drop a little deeper to receive the ball which will also give them space to run into once received the ball and leaving Martial by himself higher up the pitch - in which Pogba should be good enough to pick out his runs.
I guess our attackers were too attack minded for the Southampton game, they were heavily reliant on our defenders and Matic to bring the ball out to distribute it to them for a quick counter, and when it didn't work that well, they didn't try to change their mindset to drop deeper to help. The attacking mentality is good if it works but we just can't get stuck thinking that way if it stops working in a game, we just didn't adapt.
Though I think where we failed was that apart from Matic, and sometimes Pogba, there were just no passing options, Bruno was a little too high up and Southampton managed to close down the angles for Matic and Pogba quite well.
Maybe Bruno, Rashford and Greenwood just had to drop a little deeper to receive the ball which will also give them space to run into once received the ball and leaving Martial by himself higher up the pitch - in which Pogba should be good enough to pick out his runs.
I guess our attackers were too attack minded for the Southampton game, they were heavily reliant on our defenders and Matic to bring the ball out to distribute it to them for a quick counter, and when it didn't work that well, they didn't try to change their mindset to drop deeper to help. The attacking mentality is good if it works but we just can't get stuck thinking that way if it stops working in a game, we just didn't adapt.
Move the ball quickly. One-two touch passing, quickly, between the players. At their peak under Pep, teams tried to press Barcelona as well, but it was never successful because of how quickly they moved the ball.
This. We are ok at bypassing pressing as our games against high pressing teams, City, Chelsea, to a degree Liverpool have shown. We mostly look to counter and destroy teams that way; last game we were just crap on an individual level with Bruno and Pogba having poor games. There is no fundamental problem here as some articles suggested after the game, it's knee jerk.
Keep practicing how to get out of it in the training and actual games while adding better players. No point trying to imagine new formations or positions to get out of it. The team will have to get better at it.
A fast, confident, dominant CB who is truly good at passing.
Look at our 2011 final against Barca for instance, Rooney was provided with specific instruction to keep pressing Busquets and it worked great for the first ten minutes, then Pique stepped up and start taking the ball and passing it around between himself, Alves, Puyol and Busquets, just give and take and give and take. Our press ended pretty soon afterwards.
Neither Maguire nor Lindelof can do that because they takes many touches and invites pressure, then either crap their pants and put it to De Gea for a hoof or surrender possession, and when our DM and fullbacks are pressed none of them is confident enough to step out, receive the ball and move up the pitch, drawing the press with them before passing it out of danger, because they have no pace for recovery.
As it is though, our counter gameplan is still good enough, yesterday was just an unfortunate case of us conceding from the press but failing to exploit it since both our creative CMs were off with their final ball, then the freak injuries happened.
Look at our 2011 final against Barca for instance, Rooney was provided with specific instruction to keep pressing Busquets and it worked great for the first ten minutes, then Pique stepped up and start taking the ball and passing it around between himself, Alves, Puyol and Busquets, just give and take and give and take. Our press ended pretty soon afterwards.
Neither Maguire nor Lindelof can do that because they takes many touches and invites pressure, then either crap their pants and put it to De Gea for a hoof or surrender possession, and when our DM and fullbacks are pressed none of them is confident enough to step out, receive the ball and move up the pitch, drawing the press with them before passing it out of danger, because they have no pace for recovery.
As it is though, our counter gameplan is still good enough, yesterday was just an unfortunate case of us conceding from the press but failing to exploit it since both our creative CMs were off with their final ball, then the freak injuries happened.
Who do we practice against in training as we're awful at it ourselves?
Maybe we should buy Southampton to practice then.
Would probably be more value for money than Harry Maguire.
We are better at it compared to last year. How do you think we improve on it?
Do you actually believe that Sir Alex didn't face teams going on the defensive against us? The difference between then and now is that in the past there were actually some great CBs around. The likes of Maguire would struggle wrestle a first team place against the likes of Pally, Cahill and Johnsen let alone against Vidic, Campbell, Rio, Stam and Terry. Therefore teams have to use strength in numbers instead of quality.
Having said that the trick to break them is pretty much the same. You have to have an attacking side with a flexible skillset that would allow the manager and the players to switch gear at a moment's notice. If physicality won't do then pace & trickery might work, if pace won't cut it then good old fashion crossing/tall striker combination might do the trick, if their defence go full Rain of Castamere against our players then we must have some decent free kicker experts that will punish them on set pieces. Defences are rarely equipped against all eventualities. The Stam-Johnsen combo struggled against pace which made a young Anelka lethal against us, Rio and Vidic struggled against Fellaini's physicality, Juventus solid unit of the 90s used to hate coming face to face against Giggs.
Any Idea what Sir Alex fancies for breakfast tomorrow?Have players on the bench who are of a standard good enough for Manchester United would be a decent start.
Hassenhuttl identified Matic and our backline as a weakness to target IMO. And also devised a plan to cut off passing lanes which affected our attacking players and we just couldn't advance play in the first phase of the build up. The same thing will happen again if the issue isn't corrected by next season IMO.