How to get better at bypassing an organised press?

[mancan92]

Agree on the part that we didnt do it consistently. But to blame the managers coaching for this ? It is clear we have worked on it in training and on this occasion, our players did not move the ball quick enough. Why is it that every time something goes well for us, the argument is "better players, will play better, nothing to do with coaching", and when we fail to win "Is Ole actually coaching this team?"

Surely, If you praise the players for playing well, they should be blamed for not playing well.

Likewise, if Ole is praised for playing well, he should be looked at when we don't.

You can blame them because that's literally their job to find a way to out smart their opponents especially since at the end of the day we will 99% of the time have better players.

If you look at how we actually setup it was stupid as pogba was the only player in the middle, Fernandes was pushed up on their defenders and Matic was sat in between our defenders. That's really poor tactically against a team which clearly is flooding the middle. So the management team can take alot of blame.

 

[ghaliboy]

A striker that excels at coming short and linking up play through the lanes, some actual wide players, a fast ball recycling DM and an 8 that is basically a more imposing Bruno to play with Bruno.

 

[tenpoless]

Maybe try to play with more midfielders..
because it felt like we only had Pogba in the game vs Southampton

 

[romufc]

You can blame them because that's literally their job to find a way to out smart their opponents especially since at the end of the day we will 99% of the time have better players.

If you look at how we actually setup it was stupid as pogba was the only player in the middle, Fernandes was pushed up on their defenders and Matic was sat in between our defenders. That's really poor tactically against a team which clearly is flooding the middle. So the management team can take alot of blame.

Management has to take the blame ? Yes in some instances. The goal we scored came because we set up that way.. So poor tactically and we sliced them open, and that was not the only time, there were 3/4 times we sliced them open but the touch / pass from Bruno, Rashford, pogba was not 100%

How many chances did Southampton create from pressing us? From individual errors, whereas we as a team worked our way out of it and created 4/5 chances.

Yes, when we went up we should have changed a little bit and yes we could have dealt with the press better by passing quicker.

 

[alexanderplatz]

Bring back Fellaini

In all seriousness, someone physically powerful to play direct balls into would be the solution.

Almost like ighalo who has wonderful hold up ability without being a big elbow man. And he can get a goal too

 

[IrishRedDevil]

Replace Matic with a better passer of the ball.
Tell Fernandes to keep his game more simple, complete passes, don't always try to go for the killer pass.

Against Soutampton Matic tried to run forward a couple of times and lost the ball. Fernandes is great as an attacking threat, but when we need to keep the ball for a few minutes against the high press, he should be told to keep it simple with a few sideways passes.

 

[mancan92]

Management has to take the blame ? Yes in some instances. The goal we scored came because we set up that way.. So poor tactically and we sliced them open, and that was not the only time, there were 3/4 times we sliced them open but the touch / pass from Bruno, Rashford, pogba was not 100%

How many chances did Southampton create from pressing us? From individual errors, whereas we as a team worked our way out of it and created 4/5 chances.

Yes, when we went up we should have changed a little bit and yes we could have dealt with the press better by passing quicker.

That doesn't take away from the fact we struggled with the press we greatly did. Things are not black and white. They take congratulations for the last few weeks for the improvement in our attacking play but they do take blame for not tactically coming up with a way to play against Southampton well enough. As I said they didn't even sort out the issue of being completely outnumbered in midfield. Pogba often had 3 men marking him whilst matic and Fernández were no where near. That's a big tactical issue and mistake.

 

[Solius]

Like Neville mentioned during the game, it seemed to work getting the ball out wide and then playing it back into Pogba from there. Pogba isn't exactly press resistant though so it was always likely to be an issue for us.

 

[passing-wind]

It has to be coaching and that solely relies on Solskjaer and the management. You cannot bank on world class players individually assigning themselves space when being closed down, the movement has to come from being drilled as a team. The issue with the Southampton result is other opposition could impost similar methods and we begin to struggle so how we deal with our next game will determine if we are able to adapt on the fly.

 

[A-man]

Sir Alex's genius was moving on with the times and understanding that football changes which meant he had to as well. He did not have to face teams that press like today, nor did he face teams with the same level of technique and skill as today. He moulded his '90s teams to deal with the physical challenge of the PL at the time and then switched things around in the '00s to deal with the tactical challenge presented by the likes of Mourinho and Benitez. He never had a one fit for all formula to address all challenges because the challenges are ever changing. Trying therefore to apply some of his preferences at a certain point in time is futile since that goes against the very reason he lasted as long as he did.

Good points and I fully agree. Football evolve all the time and tactics that worked the, will not work today, just like the defenders that were great 10-15 years ago were great at that football. Today there are other demands, and one of the biggest differences is the intense and organised press. If you watch football from 10-15 years ago it looks very different and the back line seems to have all the time in the world.
(And yes, many of the best defenders 2007 would probably be very good today as well if they had the skills needed today, ie were trained today)

Okay go watch the goal Martial scored from where it started.... it started from the back 4, went to LB, to maguire -> lindelof -> AWB -> Pogba -> Bruno -> Marital = Goal

Or did they not press on that occasion? We beat the press for the goal. A team goal, which comes from coaching. Coaching happens in the training ground and it happens when the players know their roles in the system and the formation suits them.

It is interesting how many complain that the back line so often pass from Maguire to Lindelof to AWB, but in reality it is often this way they play through press and go via a midfielder to attack. Personally I thought the passing from Lindelof and AWB looked a little off in the first half vs Southampton, and also the movement in the midfield was poor, but in general that has worked well. They often play through press and then our speedy attackers can hurt any team in just a few seconds.

 

[romufc]

That doesn't take away from the fact we struggled with the press we greatly did. Things are not black and white. They take congratulations for the last few weeks for the improvement in our attacking play but they do take blame for not tactically coming up with a way to play against Southampton well enough. As I said they didn't even sort out the issue of being completely outnumbered in midfield. Pogba often had 3 men marking him whilst matic and Fernández were no where near. That's a big tactical issue and mistake.

But it also doesn't take away from the fact those tactics got us goal scoring chances and their press as much as it put us on the backfoot, how many fouls did we give them? how many shots on goal did we give them?

You could overload the midfield then what? where do you go? back? no out ball? As you say it is not black and white.

We could have done better, Bruno had an off game and tactically we could have changed at half time. Again, we will learn from this.

The goal they scored didnt come from them pressing us, Ole done exactly what you wanted him to do, he brought on Fred and Mctominay to get more numbers in midfield. What happened then? we sat back and gave away corners.

 

[Stretender]

He should have packed midfield and played with 1 forward. Start with fresh legs eg Fred, and Scott in midfield and Ighalo as the forward. If that plan failed at half time revert to 3 forwards up front. You cant play the same formation all the time its madness

 

[Smores]

People acting like we've never done it before, we've done it across managers whether that's direct quick passing or direct play to bypass the middle we've done it.

Our issue against Southampton was we got too tired to play out quick and didn't switch to going direct. I can understand Ole's reluctance to change what had been working but Greenwood off for Ighalo would have been my call.

 

[mancan92]

But it also doesn't take away from the fact those tactics got us goal scoring chances and their press as much as it put us on the backfoot, how many fouls did we give them? how many shots on goal did we give them?

You could overload the midfield then what? where do you go? back? no out ball? As you say it is not black and white.

We could have done better, Bruno had an off game and tactically we could have changed at half time. Again, we will learn from this.

The goal they scored didnt come from them pressing us, Ole done exactly what you wanted him to do, he brought on Fred and Mctominay to get more numbers in midfield. What happened then? we sat back and gave away corners.

That's why I said it's not black and white but this thread is specifically about playing against the press and that's what I'm addressing.

He brought on Fred and mctom but clearly we didn't change how we played. Why didn't Ole switch to a more attempt to control the game? Not play pure counter attack but do what Chelsea did yesterday flood the middle and just keep the ball get Southampton running so that when they do get it they are too tired to do much. This is what tactics and training is for. Obviously we didnt prepare well enough for the press.

 

[romufc]

It is interesting how many complain that the back line so often pass from Maguire to Lindelof to AWB, but in reality it is often this way they play through press and go via a midfielder to attack. Personally I thought the passing from Lindelof and AWB looked a little off in the first half vs Southampton, and also the movement in the midfield was poor, but in general that has worked well. They often play through press and then our speedy attackers can hurt any team in just a few seconds.

It is how we play, that's how we have scored goals this season against pressing teams. Southampton were sharper than us so it looked good.

The issue was not tactics, it was players not switched on, AWB, Lindelof, Maguire, Matic and Pogba all gave the ball away or the passing was poor.

I have seen people mentioning how we should have loaded up midfielders, what would that have done? be more defensive? but we didnt concede chance after chance? but we did create 3/4 good chances from that.

The team is still developing and mistakes will be made on some occasions.

 

[Dan_F]

- Sir Alex always liked an experienced keeper. He kept Schmeichel past his 30s and would have kept him for more if he had a chance. He also bought VDS.
- Carrick was not a DM but a deep lying playmaker
- Scholes was a hardworking player. He wasn't great in tackling but he carried his share
- did we?

There’s a difference between having an experienced and having one that’s declining just because they’re experienced.

Carrick played the same role as Matic as we moved away from 442. He was the defensive part of a midfield pair.

You’re acting like Pogba doesn’t do any defending. Such a strange narrative. He won the World Cup in that role. There’s been zero issues defensively with him since the team improved.

Yes. Two champions league finals and those ties against Bilbao. It wasn’t really something that was being done in England to that extent at the time. I’m not saying he wouldn’t have figured out a way to counter it eventually though.

 

[devilish]

There’s a difference between having an experienced and having one that’s declining just because they’re experienced.

Carrick played the same role as Matic as we moved away from 442. He was the defensive part of a midfield pair.

You’re acting like Pogba doesn’t do any defending. Such a strange narrative. He won the World Cup in that role. There’s been zero issues defensively with him since the team improved.

Yes. Two champions league finals and those ties against Bilbao. It wasn’t really something that was being done in England to that extent at the time. I’m not saying he wouldn’t have figured out a way to counter it eventually though.

- After the treble Schmeichel was in decline
- Carrick was a deep lying playmaker who could defend. His passing range is something Matic wouldn't even dream of doing
- Pogba himself confessed that he gets more inefficient the deeper in the pitch he goes. Which is fair enough for him but he wouldn't have cut it with Sir Alex's United
- We played well against many teams who could pass the ball well from heynckes Bayern to Lippi's Juve right to Wenger's Arsenal and Pep's Barcelona (when we won the third CL). Sir Alex's last years saw Pep's magnificent team taking over (second best team I've ever saw in football) + a decline in United in terms of team's investment which saw us sticking to the old guard far more then we should have done.

 

[Henandez14]

You posted just 4 posts since you joined in November 2019. Are all the other posts of this level?

That question is a bit redundant isn’t it?

 

[devilish]

That question is a bit redundant isn’t it?

Its pretty in line to your 4 posts

 

[DevilRed]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but its pretty straight forward on how to break a tight press isn't it?

Just have someone dribble past their marker and it tends to open up their defence pretty quickly. Sadly, Matic and Pogba were a step slow on the day.

 

[Henandez14]

Its pretty in line to your 4 posts

6 , but I get your point. You have more posts and therefore you know what you’re going on about. Cheers

 

[Dan_F]

- After the treble Schmeichel was in decline
- Carrick was a deep lying playmaker who could defend. His passing range is something Matic wouldn't even dream of doing
- Pogba himself confessed that he gets more inefficient the deeper in the pitch he goes. Which is fair enough for him but he wouldn't have cut it with Sir Alex's United
- We played well against many teams who could pass the ball well from heynckes Bayern to Lippi's Juve right to Wenger's Arsenal and Pep's Barcelona (when we won the third CL). Sir Alex's last years saw Pep's magnificent team taking over (second best team I've ever saw in football) + a decline in United in terms of team's investment which saw us sticking to the old guard far more then we should have done.

Schmeichel and VDS both had leadership and other skills that would help the team, despite their reactions dipping. DDG is a very different situation, as he always lacked that part.

Carrick definitely had a better passing range when given time on the ball. Under a big press, it wasn’t always the best, with lots of criticism of him playing sideways for years.

The whole discussion is about beating a high press, not playing against teams that can pass the ball well.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Having defenders that are comfortable under pressure and able pass progressively into tight spaces. Maguire and Shaw tend to do this well, but Lindelöf and AWB try too often to just play hopeful long balls to Rashford that pretty much never work. Also think it requires your midfield to drop slightly farther back to offer options.

But, beating an organized press is incredibly hard, which is why all of the top teams do it, as it requires quick decision making and good technique, and even when you do all of that the other team will just foul you intentionally. It’s why Pep is obsessed with players that are great passers and comfortable on the ball in all positions, because he knows it will ensure his team isn’t overwhelmed by a press, even if he sacrifices other attributes.

I just wish the tactical fouling by these teams would go more heavily punished, as it would make these heavy presses much more risky if a guy could get sent off for bear hugging someone from behind if a team plays through the press.

 

[LoneStar]

Go direct (aka hoof), and then counter press and win the ball high up, and continue your attack. If you notice yesterday that's how Southampton were able to mount sustained pressure on us. They didn't care about playing out of the back at all, they knew they'd win the ball high up anyway.

So the players expended most of their energy in counter pressing. Not tracking back, not playing out. Just camping in our half, pressing the heck out of us, and hoofing it whenever they won the ball after we sustained an attack. Very smart and effective strategy, and it can be a good leveler against a more talented team. Liverpool does it a lot as well.

This. VVDs precision long balls to Salah and Mane essentially bypasses the whole pressing. And it can be deadly with skilled pacy forwards.

We have the latter in abundance, need the keeper and defence to do better with the passing.

having multiple ways of playing is crucial to winning the title.

 

[mazhar13]

We have the formula for it; we just need to execute it better.

Our right side didn't offer much threat, which made things easier for Southampton. Both AWB and Greenwood looked fatigued; AWB had heavy touches and poor passes, which resulted in Greenwood getting heavily marked. Bruno was also quite sloppy with his passing due to fatigue. When 2 of your 4 attacking players are not as much of a threat, then it makes sense as to why Southampton had an easier time stopping us.

In hindsight, we probably could have had one of Bruno or Greenwood on the bench with one of James or Pereira starting. Maybe we could have had Brandon Williams on the right instead of Wan-Bissaka. Maybe we could have had a midfield 3 of Pogba, Fred, and Matic. Whatever the case, our problem was our execution, not our main style of play/tactics. The fact that we didn't adjust, however, indicates the lack of strength in depth in our squad and the lack of trust Ole has on our fringe players.

 

[noodlehair]

Don't have one of your midfielders playing as deep as the centrebacks and the other one in midfield on his own?

 

[El Jefe]

Coaching is the simple answer. Guardiola teams have mastered this, just like Nagelsmann and Pochettino teams have also done.

I won't be fully sold on Ole's coaching until he can address our passing from the back and as a team. IMO our passing seems more reliant on players qualities rather than team passing moves. It explains why we look so inept when Bruno or Pogba aren't there.

Passing out from the back relies on positioning and quick play, two things that hurt us. Our players seem to want to much time on the ball to think of what pass to make. You look at Pep sides and its almost an automated function every player know exactly where to be positioned and what pass to make, they also have the confidence to make the pass and trust the recipient of the pass.

 

[devilish]

Schmeichel and VDS both had leadership and other skills that would help the team, despite their reactions dipping. DDG is a very different situation, as he always lacked that part.

Carrick definitely had a better passing range when given time on the ball. Under a big press, it wasn’t always the best, with lots of criticism of him playing sideways for years.

The whole discussion is about beating a high press, not playing against teams that can pass the ball well.

- It would be very interesting to see how DDG would have developed as a senior goalkeeper with Sir Alex in command. I still think Sir Alex would have kept him at least for another year. The GK department is a role that the gaffer learnt not to mess with unless pushed. Also after what happened to him with Foster and Carroll he would probably try and keep Henderson on loan for another year to get more experience

- Carrick was not a Matic type of enforcer though. He had 40 assists in the EPL with 24 goals under his belt. Matic has 14 assists with just 7 goals. As said they are different type of players.

- If you're referring to the tika taka style of football it came at a time when United were already at a steady decline with most of our key players growing old. There's no way that A Bilbao would dominate the treble winning squad the way they did in 2012

 

[Adnan]

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[yan man utd]

Indeed there were occasions when we did beat the high press but let’s face it this was SOUTHAMPTON! We definitely need to be not only beating this kind of team but outplaying them. We did neither so there is a problem which if not addressed will lead to further embarrassment for us in the league and even more so in Europe, where possession is everything.

I see the weaknesses as follows
- DDG has poor distribution and his lack of confidence to come off his line in general does not set us up well for beating a high press. Southampton ruthlessly exposed this weakness. Not only that - but a more imposing/commanding goalkeeper like Schmeichel would have anticipated and got to either or both of the crosses that Southampton scored from and caught the ball. He just doesnt seem at the races anymore and looks quite timid.

2 Our centre halves do not complement each other and we are crying out for a dynamic , aggressive, dominant, pacey Centre half to go alongside Maguire. Lindelof is an ok replacement for him but Smalling would be a better foil. We don’t need centrehalves who can play a 50 yard pass when not under pressure, we need a defender who strikers can’t out pace or outmanoeuvre. The 2 CBS just have to play a simple quick pass to the midfielders/full backs.
Lindelof and Maguire are both scared of being outpaced so they have a tendency to sit too deep.

3 the key to beating a high press is actually the movement of your entire team. Without movement there is no possibility of making a pass and even the receiver will be in trouble if he is not one of at least 2 options - because the entire press of the opposition will gang up on him like Southampton did with Pogba.

I was watching what the other players were doing as Lindelof and Maguire were getting pressed back and for me they were far too static too many times. Fernandes definitely had an off day and I agree that he took too many risks on a day when we needed to build some momentum possession wise.

4 we do need a holding midfielder like kante or verrati who is more mobile than Matic and has greater ball retention skills

5 in game management. It’s a big worry that even with the extra water breaks Solskjaer didn’t manage to solve the problems and while we got worse they got better. I wonder if he needs some one with greater tactical acumen than what he already has in his coaching team. I honestly don’t think we are far off having the best squad of players individually but let’s be honest - both Pep and Klopp seem far more tactically astute than him - at this moment in time - unfortunately.

Still let’s hope Southampton was a one off and that we dominate palace, Chelsea and Leicester. Proof is in the pudding.
I suspect all will become clear within the next couple of weeks!

 

[RedDevilRoshi]

Evidenced again today. Teams know that we struggle with then they press us. Surely it’s something we need to work on.

 

[mazhar13]

Evidenced again today. Teams know that we struggle with then they press us. Surely it’s something we need to work on.

What struggle? We bypassed their press on several occasions, and they resorted to fouls to break up our build-up. If anything, today was proof of the fact that our players' heads weren't in the FA Cup. Once Bailly went off injured, they lost their concentration.

 

[Bojan11]

Same old problems.

 

[RedDevilRoshi]

What struggle? We bypassed their press on several occasions, and they resorted to fouls to break up our build-up. If anything, today was proof of the fact that our players' heads weren't in the FA Cup. Once Bailly went off injured, they lost their concentration.

Yes they fouled us a lot but the amount of times we kept on gifting possession to them was just criminal. It’s clearly evident that we couldn’t handle their pressing game. They didn’t give us any time nor space. Any time a Utd player had possession of the ball, a Chelsea player was right in their face pressing and harrying them into a mistake. Southampton done the exact same thing to us the other night there and walked away with a deserved point. I lost count the number of misplaced/sloppy passes that we made yesterday which were either going out of play for a Chelsea throw in or straight into the path of a Chelsea player. We simply had no answer to their pressing game and as I said, it is something that we need to work on as teams now know that if they press and harry us as a unit, we will get nervous and make uncharacteristic mistakes.

Take the 2nd goal as a prime example. Yes DDG is the one that should be held responsible as it’s a goal that he should have prevented, but if you look at it before that error, it all began with their pressing game. Brandon Williams is being pressed high by (I think) Reece James and doesn’t know what to do with the ball so just ends up playing a high hospital pass to God knows which is picked up by Mason Mount and we all know what happened after that.

 

[mazhar13]

Yes they fouled us a lot but the amount of times we kept on gifting possession to them was just criminal. It’s clearly evident that we couldn’t handle their pressing game. They didn’t give us any time nor space. Any time a Utd player had possession of the ball, a Chelsea player was right in their face pressing and harrying them into a mistake. Southampton done the exact same thing to us the other night there and walked away with a deserved point. I lost count the number of misplaced/sloppy passes that we made yesterday which were either going out of play for a Chelsea throw in or straight into the path of a Chelsea player. We simply had no answer to their pressing game and as I said, it is something that we need to work on as teams now know that if they press and harry us as a unit, we will get nervous and make uncharacteristic mistakes.

Take the 2nd goal as a prime example. Yes DDG is the one that should be held responsible as it’s a goal that he should have prevented, but if you look at it before that error, it all began with their pressing game. Brandon Williams is being pressed high by (I think) Reece James and doesn’t know what to do with the ball so just ends up playing a high hospital pass to God knows which is picked up by Mason Mount and we all know what happened after that.

From what I remember, most of our giveaways were due to players not being in sync with each other (e.g. failed through passes to Rashford) or failed long passes forward from our back line/keeper. We did give away the ball several times due to their press, but so did Chelsea. In fact, Chelsea also struggled with our press and resorted to long balls on several occasions. The difference between the sides was that Giroud was much better at knocking down the long balls than any of our players. Most of our giveaways via their press were due to our failed long balls from the keeper to our forward or failed through passes due to bad execution or a misunderstanding.

That makes me wonder if we even had training days in between the matches or if the players were rested in order to be ready for yesterday.

 

[Bastian]

Which players are OK in dealing with being closed down? Bruno, Pogba (when he's awake), Rashford, Martial...that's it. None of the defenders, and none of the rest.

We either need a target man in those scenarios where Dave lumps the ball up the pitch (which is easier for him than playing out from the back) or buy loads of technically capable players. Then there's coaching..

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

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[Web of Bissaka]

Which players are OK in dealing with being closed down? Bruno, Pogba (when he's awake), Rashford, Martial...that's it. None of the defenders, and none of the rest.

No defenders?

Most comfortable to least
Best -- Martial, Shaw, prime Matic, McTominator
Good -- Lindelof, Ighalo, Bailly, Greenwood, Bruno
Okay -- Matic, McT, Pogba, Maguire, Fred, AWB, De Gea, Williams, Rashford, Dalot

I think you're letting the recent games results where fatigue also worsen their performances affected your evaluations.

Remember back past games.
Our players are fine and fairly good at being closed down individually.

We have the players, but lacking good structure or even any proper structure at all to beat organized press.
Football is not 1 on 1, it's a team game so that's where we are lacking.

 

[Bastian]

No defenders?

Most comfortable to least
Best -- Martial, Shaw, prime Matic, McTominator
Good -- Lindelof, Ighalo, Bailly, Greenwood, Bruno
Okay -- Matic, McT, Pogba, Maguire, Fred, AWB, De Gea, Williams, Rashford, Dalot

I think you're letting the recent games results where fatigue also worsen their performances affected your evaluations.

Remember back past games.
Our players are fine and fairly good at being closed down individually.

We have the players, but lacking good structure or even any proper structure at all to beat organized press.
Football is not 1 on 1, it's a team game so that's where we are lacking.

Parts of that are true. Shaw is good in that regard. Bailly, definitely not. I think you may be caught up with recent performances. I remember calamity - over the years. Decent against Chelsea though. Lindelof needs space to be effective in that regard, otherwise the mistakes mount up.

Prime Matic is no more, but very good Matic needs a manager who understands when not to play him.

But yes, more than the players, it's a coaching issue. The next step for Ole, whether or not he can handle that.

 

[glazed]

High press is a simple term that describes several different styles of play - all of them pretty sophisticated positionally and all similar but not the same.
You could face more than one version in the same game.

First step would be having a coach with the tactical sophistication to understand what the opposition is actually doing. Without that there is no countering.