How to get better at bypassing an organised press?

[AshRK]

I don't think our side under Ole have trouble with teams pressing, we did quite well against city and liverpool whenever we have played them. I feel Southampton came to us as a surprise. I know Ralph's team loves to press but what happened on Monday was even rare for them. They were magnificent and took our side by surprise. I felt our side expected them to tire off but it never happened and then we were equally having an off day and the combination of that both made us look even bad.

I wouldn't read too much to that game.

 

[Dan_F]

What Sir Alex would do is to have an attacking minded team with a solid defence. The latter was needed to allow the team to focus on what it does best ie attack. Its team was made up of players who used to have a wide skillset. You had Beckham who was a magnificent crosser of the ball, Scholes whose passing and eye to goal was second to none, Giggs who was the prototype of what we now call the inside forward. If Cole/Yorke duo didn't work out then he could switch to an old fashioned but still effective mezzapunta and goal poacher system thanks to Teddy and Ole.

So how would Sir Alex work with this team?

GK: DDG would remain for at least another year. Henderson would be loaned for another year and then brought back as a first teamer.

Def: Sir Alex used to like to have a defensive full back and 2 top quality CBs. That gave him a solid defence he needed for his team. If he had that though, he'll aim for a wingback to compliment that whether it's a young Gaz (who complimented Stam-Johnsen and an ageing Irwin) or Evra (who complimented Wes, Rio and Vidic). Therefore I think he would be looking for a pacey CB whose good in air and an attacking minded fullback

DM: Sir Alex always hated the DM role. He said that himself. He felt that since United are attacking most of the time, then having a DM meant not utilising the full potential of the side. I think that Sir Alex would have shown Matic the door and then he would go on and play a more mobile player who can both attack and defend. I think that the old man would insist on McT until he shapes him in the player he wants. Sir Alex could quite stubborn on his choices. He showed an immense amount of patience with both Gaz and Fletcher.

DLP: Under Sir Alex Pogba would be a goner. Its not about his agent, their history, yada yada but more about the fact that Pogba is pretty much useless defensive wise.. Sir Alex would go for a hardworking attacking box 2 box midfielder who might not be as technically gifted as Pogba is but would offer more workrate and would release the ball earlier then Pogba does. I think he would go for VDB or Grealish.

AMC: Bruno is as a typical Sir Alex type of player. He'll probably make him captain.

RW: If the club can afford Sancho then he'll go for him. Else he'll stick to Greenwood

LW: James and Rashford would be fine

STK: I think that Sir Alex would go for a striker with a different skillset to Martial's but who wouldn't mind a bit of time on the bench. Calvert-Lewin maybe?

Weird post. How are you sounding so certain about all of these things?

You have no idea how Fergie would do with DDG, he famously shipped out star players before they started to decline, he probably would have sold him to Real seasons ago.

Fergie doesn’t like a defensive midfielder, but played with Carrick doing that exact thing for about 7 years.

Fergie wouldn’t play Pogba as he doesn’t offer enough in defence, but he had an ageing Scholes in midfield for years.

Finally, Fergie’s team shat the bed every time we faced a decent pressing team, so why are you even bothering.

 

[11101]

We need to start with a defensive midfielder who can receive the ball under pressure and move it quickly. Matic cant and Fred often wants it when he shouldn't. Fix that and the pressing problem will mostly go away.

Our defence also need to stop dwelling on the ball, especially Maguire. If you cant pass into midfield sideways to Shaw or Lindelof is not your only remaining option. Look further forward, although Southampton were very effective in marking our wingers.

 

[UpWithRivers]

We would have to be brave and drop Pogba or Fernandes or both. We didnt give Southampton much respect and didnt realize how well they would press. Next time we should play like we did against City, Liverpool. 5 at the back. Matic and Fred in midfield, James instead of Greenwood. Sit back and hit on the counter. Or 4-3-3 with Pogba in the middle. We think we can beat the top teams but not with Pogba + Matic in midfield. They just get overrun. If Southampton do this to the first 11 we are putting out now then Liverpool and City would destroy us.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Sir Alex's genius was moving on with the times and understanding that football changes which meant he had to as well. He did not have to face teams that press like today, nor did he face teams with the same level of technique and skill as today. He moulded his '90s teams to deal with the physical challenge of the PL at the time and then switched things around in the '00s to deal with the tactical challenge presented by the likes of Mourinho and Benitez. He never had a one fit for all formula to address all challenges because the challenges are ever changing. Trying therefore to apply some of his preferences at a certain point in time is futile since that goes against the very reason he lasted as long as he did.

This.

SAF's ability to adapt quickly to the changes in football is freakishly great. It's why he lasted that long. Unfortunately his adapt ability is often barely mentioned at all. I'm fully confident he will also adapt to the growing high organized press of football today if he continued managing.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

I don't think our side under Ole have trouble with teams pressing, we did quite well against city and liverpool whenever we have played them.

5 at the back.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

You stick your forwards high up the pitch, find a goalie with good distribution and bet on them beating 1 on 1 match ups with pace.

 

[Trex]

For the rest of the season I think Bruno needs to drop deeper and play side by side with Pogba when facing high pressing teams,we had only Pogba most times in central midfield giving the defence little options to play medium range passes,if he is going to stay higher then we should be playing longer passes into channels for the front four.... We should generally be mixing this up keeping teams guessing but we just kept playing short all the time
Long term we need a carrick/bosquet like player in midfield to orchestrate our play from the back

 

[romufc]

I would suggest anyone who thinks we cannot beat the press to watch 2 goals.

The goal we scored at the Ethiad beating the press and the 2nd goal Vs Southampton.

All this nonsense that we cannot beat the press is nonsense. Martial's goal is a clear example of what Ole was trying to get them to do.

Unfortunately, in this game we could not do it more, we gave away too many passes. Just because in one game we were pressed, our players were not at it but still managed to score a goal out of it and came 2 mins from winning the game.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

We should have used in game management & realised that playing out from the back was detrimental against Southampton & abandoned it for the game within the first 15 minutes.

Maguire, Wan-Bissaka, Matic & Pogba are all guilty of taking too many touches on the ball so it just didn’t work against such a relentless press. Lindelof & Shaw dealt with it very well, but because they are Lindelof & Shaw fans will give them no credit.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

What we have?

• Rondo
• 11 + 7 players
• Individual talents
• Players Chemistry
• Coach Instructions

What we don't vs organised press?

• Coaching
• More suited Formation
• More efficient roles within a system
• Better Teamplay (during Build-up/Deep-possession)

 

[romufc]

= Better Teamplay (during Build-up/Deep-possession)

Go watch Martial's goal again. If you think we are not coached.

Go watch the goal Vs City at the Ethiad.

 

[Withnail]

You move the ball quickly, that's it.

We started slowly against Southampton.

 

[mancan92]

I mean clearly we shouldn't setup with pogba as the only option in the centre of the field with matic literally sitting in a 3 with the defenders you need options in the middle.

 

[mancan92]

I would suggest anyone who thinks we cannot beat the press to watch 2 goals.

The goal we scored at the Ethiad beating the press and the 2nd goal Vs Southampton.

All this nonsense that we cannot beat the press is nonsense. Martial's goal is a clear example of what Ole was trying to get them to do.

Unfortunately, in this game we could not do it more, we gave away too many passes. Just because in one game we were pressed, our players were not at it but still managed to score a goal out of it and came 2 mins from winning the game.

Didn't we play 5 at the back in both games?

 

[El Zoido]

It’s a combination of being too slow on the ball, and also players not making themselves available for passes. This stood out to me vs Southampton, Luke Shaw has improved tremendously at finding the space in which to receive the ball. The rest of the back line, not so much. It feeds in to the first point because if Lindelof receives the ball from De Gea, of course he’s going to dawdle on it if there’s no pass on. We just need to be more mobile in defence overall. The movement will pull the opposition attack/press, and creates space to feed the ball in to midfield.

Pogba got a lot of criticism for being dispossessed for the first goal, but no way should he be receiving the ball facing his own goal on the edge of his own penalty area. It’s asking for trouble. We need to also get smarter in decision-making, probably should have just hoofed it in this instance. I think we just need a lot more coaching on this, it can be fixed.

 

[Morpheus 7]

High quick balls up there line out wide in both sides. You get wingers to touch line and break with speed. It takes out there high line at the back. The distance from there GK and FB's are significance. It makes attacks so dangerous by bypassing the midfield. It's then on the team to press to change shape, fall deeper and therefore make more room in the middle area. It's really not that complicated.

 

[romufc]

Didn't we play 5 at the back in both games?

Our fans need to watch games, we played a 4-2-3-1 Vs Southampton at home on Monday.

The question was not about formations, it is about bypassing a pressing team. We managed to do that Vs City and Southampton.

 

[bdecuc]

To be fair I think we've gotten a lot better at beating the press in the last year or so. We looked under pressure on Monday because Southampton were relentless at it. Real energy and speed in their pressing and hassling generally. They looked like a very, very fit and energetic side to me. Don't know how they do it.

Maybe we're a bit fatigued as well? Could be a factor.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Go watch Martial's goal again. If you think we are not coached.

Go watch the goal Vs City at the Ethiad.

Go read the post again and try very hard to understand it better.

Just to help you -- it's specific "coaching in dealing with high press".

 

[Tony247]

Bring another bruno type midfielder who can quickly release the ball from the deep. Pogba, Matic, Fred, McT all take longer time on ball. Fred and McT are especially weak in ball retention under pressure.

 

[#07]

I actually think the main issue we had against Southampton was fatigue. In the first half, after about 20 minutes, we got our heads right, started to make the pitch wider and go via the fullbacks into midfield. That allowed us to repeatedly beat the Southampton press and score both our goals. The real issue early on was Lindelof and Maguire dawdling on the ball and then hoping for Pogba or Matic to bail them out.

However, in the second half there was a noticeable drop off and I think that's just because we've played too much football lately. Our best players looked knackered. Fernandes looked especially leggy, Pogba wasn't far behind. Only the forwards looked like they could've kept going really, which is admirable given how much work Martial put in. However, Martial has been rested regularly thanks to Ighalo. Fernandes has pretty much played every minute, including 120 minutes against Norwich and even against Southampton he stayed on for over 70 minutes. I get Ole doing that, without Fernandes teams don't fear us and it just invites pressure. But it meant that a lot of tired passes were played in the second half and that gave Southampton belief that they could capitalise on our errors.

Basically Monday night's game just shows why actually we do need to buy Thiago or Grealish or someone. Nobody fears McTominay and Fred. For good reason, they can't keep the ball. We need better depth so we can rotate the likes of Pogba and Fernandes, who we risk running into the ground before the season is over and the silverware is handed out.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

If people think this is only against Southampton, then they need to remember or watch back past games.

Yes including the games that we won. Just because we won doesn't mean there's no problem.

More recent one before Southampton is Villa but only during the first half. We nicked two goals despite of that because we have the individual talents. Villa changed their approach in 2nd half which is odd.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Our main issue is moving the ball far too slowly.

The one time we did manage to speed up the tempo and 1 touch it, we played through them like a hot knive through butter.

Martial's goal was the perfect example of how to do it.

Tbh it all starts from De gea taking an age to make his mind up, then his passing out is usually poor.

Then the CB's are under pressure immediately and end up forcing a pass to somebody who either doesn't want it or isn't ready, then they lose it.

It's something we can definitely work on and SHOULD BE if we want to succeed in Europe. if we can't beat a press we will never progress.

 

[romufc]

Go read the post again and try very hard to understand it better.

Just to help you -- it's specific "coaching in dealing with high press".

Okay go watch the goal Martial scored from where it started.... it started from the back 4, went to LB, to maguire -> lindelof -> AWB -> Pogba -> Bruno -> Marital = Goal

Or did they not press on that occasion? We beat the press for the goal. A team goal, which comes from coaching. Coaching happens in the training ground and it happens when the players know their roles in the system and the formation suits them.

 

[roonster09]

Our main issue is moving the ball far too slowly.

Yeah one of the biggest problem. We have Maguire, Lindelof who takes many touches on the ball, then you have Matic who always play like that. Pogba also takes multiple touches.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Yeah one of the biggest problem. We have Maguire, Lindelof who takes many touches on the ball, then you have Matic who always play like that. Pogba also takes multiple touches.

Yep, our midfield with those 2 definitely isn't how you'd setup for being pressed that's for sure.

I said in the pre game thread that Fred should be starting instead of Matic for this game, I feared this would happen as both he and Pogba are just a bit too big and slow to turn/accelerate away with midgets chasing you.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

The problem with going direct is that as end up conceding possession and then the other team just dominates. To be honest that did happen afew times against Southampton which prevented us getting out at all.

 

[pascell]

Maybe stop with the slow passing and taking too much time on the ball at the back? Thats when we get too comfortable on the ball, get pressed and then we're at panic stations.

Either that or have an outlet via a long ball.

 

[romufc]

Yeah one of the biggest problem. We have Maguire, Lindelof who takes many touches on the ball, then you have Matic who always play like that. Pogba also takes multiple touches.

This is one of the frustrating things. In game there are so many occasions where Maguire or Lindelof receive the ball and Pogba is available and is screaming to pass the ball they take an extra touch and the only ball available is side ways.

It is something we need to improve on alot, getting the ball into our midfield quicker, yes Pogba could get dispossessed on occasions but he will have to learn not to. We have to start trusting our players to receive the ball and keep hold of it, we are not playing Mata or Perreira in there anymore.

 

[Glorio]

This is not an issue we've particularly struggled with in the first part of the season, is it?
I believe the "weaker" United before January had the opposite problem: Meaning we did well against high pressing teams and had no clue what to do against teams that sat back in a low block defensive system.

The answer would be to play like we played against those teams, where we setup to counter, and maybe employ a slight change of personnel with James coming in for Greenwood, and McTominay coming in for Matic.

The tough nut to crack would be how to keep the creativity of Pogba and Bruno on the pitch to take full advantage of the counter when it presents itself. 3 potential options:

1. It may be a good idea to swap Bruno and Pogba's roles - where Bruno (who plays well in tight spaces and does lots of covering sits) with MacTominay and Pogba plays further where his strength would be useful in holding up the ball for the attack to join.
2. Try and get Pogba to put more of a defensive shift in - he's done it for France in the world cup
3. Sacrifice one of them - which is a shame as you do want your best players in the biggest games.

It's a good conundrum to have I reckon, as now the manager has decisions to make, where before the turn of the year, we only had one way of playing and lost a shed load of points because of that .

 

[Tony247]

I may be wrong but one touch long pass and split second thinking is what players naturally have it in them and extremely difficult (may be not impossible) to teach a player who doesn't have that skill or instict. I am not sure whether coaching staff will be able to master maguire, lindelof, pogba, matic, fred, McT of that capability in short period of time. Easier could be to buy a CDM with that skill.

 

[mancan92]

Our fans need to watch games, we played a 4-2-3-1 Vs Southampton at home on Monday.

The question was not about formations, it is about bypassing a pressing team. We managed to do that Vs City and Southampton.

We didn't do well enough at it though that's the point. We didn't consistently get through like we did vs City where we played 5 at the back.

 

[Mcking]

Having players good at holding the ball and excellent composure is necessary, which is why it made sense on paper to start with Pogba and Matic.

On hindsight I would have preferred to see Rashford and Greenwood work the channels and stay high up the pitch, so we can resort to a long pass and beat a high press that way. I felt they drifted normal amounts but that inward movement into pockets meant we had to play it out on the floor every time, and we weren't very good at it.

I think Pogba and Matic are like double egde swords in the sense that they are strong and do offer composure, but they are both very huge, and takes some time to change pace and get going. That means they are relatively easy to close down.

Matic, Pogba, Lindelof and Maguire are all comfortable on the ball, but we could do with players who are quicker off the mark, with good change of pace and could pass the ball a lot quicker. Our central defensive four is too immobile and spends far too much time on the ball.

 

[romufc]

We didn't do well enough at it though that's the point. We didn't consistently get through like we did vs City where we played 5 at the back.

Agree on the part that we didnt do it consistently. But to blame the managers coaching for this ? It is clear we have worked on it in training and on this occasion, our players did not move the ball quick enough. Why is it that every time something goes well for us, the argument is "better players, will play better, nothing to do with coaching", and when we fail to win "Is Ole actually coaching this team?"

Surely, If you praise the players for playing well, they should be blamed for not playing well.

Likewise, if Ole is praised for playing well, he should be looked at when we don't.

 

[TheGodsInRed]

They first time I remember we bypassed the pass without a long ball was on 23 mins where we used the full width of the pitch. It went wide to AWB, which stretched thier first line of press and freed up Pogba, who finally recived the ball in space, he turned and picked out Bruno, who played Martial in for the goal. Great move.


Poorer teams just play long ball. We instead need to use the full width to beat the press, you need full backs who are very comfortable on the ball however.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I may be wrong but one touch long pass and split second thinking is what players naturally have it in them and extremely difficult (may be not impossible) to teach a player who doesn't have that skill or instict. I am not sure whether coaching staff will be able to master maguire, lindelof, pogba, matic, fred, McT of that capability in short period of time. Easier could be to buy a CDM with that skill.

I still remember Oles first ever game managing us where we played like Guardiola's Barcelona.

 

[devilish]

Weird post. How are you sounding so certain about all of these things?

You have no idea how Fergie would do with DDG, he famously shipped out star players before they started to decline, he probably would have sold him to Real seasons ago.

Fergie doesn’t like a defensive midfielder, but played with Carrick doing that exact thing for about 7 years.

Fergie wouldn’t play Pogba as he doesn’t offer enough in defence, but he had an ageing Scholes in midfield for years.

Finally, Fergie’s team shat the bed every time we faced a decent pressing team, so why are you even bothering.

- Sir Alex always liked an experienced keeper. He kept Schmeichel past his 30s and would have kept him for more if he had a chance. He also bought VDS.
- Carrick was not a DM but a deep lying playmaker
- Scholes was a hardworking player. He wasn't great in tackling but he carried his share
- did we?

 

[devilish]

Any Idea what Sir Alex fancies for breakfast tomorrow?

You posted just 4 posts since you joined in November 2019. Are all the other posts of this level?

 

[georgipep]

Agree on the part that we didnt do it consistently. But to blame the managers coaching for this ? It is clear we have worked on it in training and on this occasion, our players did not move the ball quick enough. Why is it that every time something goes well for us, the argument is "better players, will play better, nothing to do with coaching", and when we fail to win "Is Ole actually coaching this team?"

Surely, If you praise the players for playing well, they should be blamed for not playing well.

Likewise, if Ole is praised for playing well, he should be looked at when we don't.

"bEcAuSe PoCh wIlL mAkE uS wOrLd ChAmPiOnS iN a MoNtH!!!"