Yup, there’s no metric we’ve improved on other than feel good factor. Marginally better football but not enough to warrant some of the arrogant posts above. I noticed two people responded to me completely failing to acknowledge the facts presented. Ultimately though we’ll see how the season plays out before we can properly judge how far we’ve come. This would only be Oles second full year whereas Mourinho had two.
I apologise Ole!
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But we didn't score.
In fact we've scored one goal against Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Arsenal. In the league. And that goal was a 1st minute penalty in a mauling defeat.
That's entirely on Ole and his approach to these games, which is indistinguishable from Mourinho's. Sit back, defend deep, don't press, hope for a counter but struggle to move the ball up the pitch.
Is that because of Ole or is that because the teams in question are fearing us on the counter and no longer play expansively against us? Even so, we created enough opportunities and situations across the majority of those games to have won them. It takes two to tango after all and I don't remember any of those games where our defence was ever truly creaking so it seems to me that you're letting your opinion of our manager cloud your judgement.
You also need to look back at those games. I'm not sure we sat back yesterday or against Chelsea. We also were pretty much level pegging City who Pep actually had set up with two DMs for. Liverpool might have been a case of this but we still had the clearer chances and in any case we went blow for blow the week after and won.
If the argument at the end of Year 3 is that Solksjaer has done what he can and a different manager is needed to win premier league trophies, we can look at it then. But few if any managers would have done as well as Ole has in the situation he inherited.
A large chunk of Ole's time has been spent playing defensive football while he built out the squad. Remember when he ran the team into the ground playing offensive pressing football when he first came in and they collapsed after a good run? I'd like to see a comparison of average goals scored and points accumulated in the second half of Morinho's tenure compared to Ole's.
Right now, Ole has built 80% of a title winning squad. If he doesn't seem to be in genuine contention by Year 3 despite getting what at least some of his top priority players, then a genuine pros and cons debate can take place. But Ole has done more than enough to justify his stay until the end of the season barring some abominable collapse.
Whatever happens with Ole from here on out, one thing he'll absolutely have above his predecessors is that he'll leave the squad in a better state than the one he inherited.
Moyes ruined a title winning side, although I think SAF does often get off a little light when it comes to the speed and manner in which he left. Club should have known internally from the season's start what he was planning/we needed more time to get a replacement for someone who had essentially been running the internal side of the club for over 20 years.
Both LVG and Jose didn't really care about the long-term of Utd, rather their own glory. The squads they left epitomised this with the short-termist squad additions (Valdes, Schweinsteiger, Sanchez, etc).
Ole isn't a world class manager, and he never will be. I'm not convinced he's good enough to win anything if I'm brutally honest, and his performances in big games this season/cup-runs have supported this.
But he has put together a very capable side with exciting options coming through. If anything, I think a better manager could get more out of them currently. It's the first time I've felt that about a squad since Fergie.
Moyes ruined a title winning side, although I think SAF does often get off a little light when it comes to the speed and manner in which he left. Club should have known internally from the season's start what he was planning/we needed more time to get a replacement for someone who had essentially been running the internal side of the club for over 20 years.
Both LVG and Jose didn't really care about the long-term of Utd, rather their own glory. The squads they left epitomised this with the short-termist squad additions (Valdes, Schweinsteiger, Sanchez, etc).
Ole isn't a world class manager, and he never will be. I'm not convinced he's good enough to win anything if I'm brutally honest, and his performances in big games this season/cup-runs have supported this.
But he has put together a very capable side with exciting options coming through. If anything, I think a better manager could get more out of them currently. It's the first time I've felt that about a squad since Fergie.
I will never understand how people can make such claims with confidence.
In short, it's because this forum is filled with 12 year old gowls.
Because hes been managing for more than ten years already and shown nothing to say otherwise.
That Chelsea game was possibly the most depressing game ever. I don't know how you remember it going, but we certainly weren't entertaining and/or going for it.
It's easy to understand. Ole has been managing for a long time and has been in charge of us now for nearly two years. Whether you disagree is another matter. But its not a tiny sample size to draw a conclusion from.
But if its steady improvement then where are you taking the sample size from?
From the point Ole took charge from us is as relevant as Joses first year. We arent even a reflection if that era.
From the point Ole took charge from us is as relevant as Joses first year. We arent even a reflection if that era.
Spurs game?
And you're right about teams playing tighter against us, fearing the counter that had us such a great record last season v top 6. But then now what? Can we not do anything else? Isn't it on Ole to come up with something else?
He said himself, you climb Everest and sit down, you freeze to death. Standing still is going backwards.
That bore drawn against a weak Liverpool not looking so good now. Top 4 showdown again it is.
I mean, in m opinion there are only 2 world class managers in the game right now. Klopp and Pep.
I can never see Ole getting to their levels, in terms of success, style or consistency.
It's no shame, and I'm very happy with him right now. But I think he will be a stepping stone to better times rather than the end-point.
Maybe because world class managers tend to prove they're worldclass before 10 years of managing?
Saying Ole can still be worldclass is like saying McTominay still can be worldclass , sure there's a slim possibility one day he wakes up and start performing that way but its highly unlikely.
Why? The way I see it, the "clock" starts the moment you manage a team big enough to win major trophies. Managing the big boys is a completely different sport than managing a mid level team. The demands are very different. Ole's clock has only been ticking for about 2 years now, but he's done a lot of good things in that time. Who knows what his limits are? Certainly not us fans, that's for sure.
I completely agree with everything here. I do not think he is good enough to win us anything, certainly not a PL or CL, but we should be in better shape for the next manager (whenever that is) than we were after Mourinho left. If he gets top four this year, I think he will stay. If we don't, I think he has to go. I would probably sack him if we hit a really rough patch of form in the next few months, or if we finish outside the top four. One could argue, and I would probably be in this group, that he could be sacked even if we finish top four but look dreadful in our football like we are now.
Whilst I agree that he's done a lot of good things, I think in that time there has also beed evidence of short-comings that don't look like being righted any time soon. Mentality, consistency and tactical inflexibility being the most obvious.
This all said, I completely support Ole and am 100% behind him. I would only want one of the absolute best out there to take over, and they're both at our biggest rivals
The reason why I think he'll struggle to win anything is as much due to him managing at the most competitive/difficult period any Utd manager has had to contend with since the start of the PL. Fergie would struggle to consistently win stuff if he was still manager here now.
No it’s not, he set the trap and it worked it created game winning chances and we didn’t take them.
You don’t get game winning chances that often in tight games.
That’s entirely on the players, we don’t have the players to create space in tight areas so it pretty much has to be counter attacks. Again we created the chances, they just weren’t taken
You don't have to be a world class manager in order to win the odd trophy, even the biggest ones like the Premier League or the Champions League, as we've seen in the past. So I can't role out Solskjaer winning something, if the stars allign.
But as for becoming a world class manager, I doubt it. While managers obviously evole and improve, I don't think they develop into world class managers. It's something special that they either have in them or not, and you can see it from very early on.
But as for becoming a world class manager, I doubt it. While managers obviously evole and improve, I don't think they develop into world class managers. It's something special that they either have in them or not, and you can see it from very early on.
Also for @Squaaaad
How much of our troubles are on Ole? We've finished 7th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 6th. Then 3rd in Oles first full season. Now currently 2nd. Personally I see some progress in comparison to the last 7 years.
VdB is a quandary but not a deal breaker for Ole, maybe he is not performing in training.
In terms of time, I think you give Ole till the end of the season, if he finishes top 4 then that is 2 seasons in a row in top 4. The last time that happened was 2013. Then we need a trophy and a title challenge next season.
It takes a long time to turn a big ship around.
I think we got carried away by being on top of the league and our win against Liverpool in the Cup.
The biggest problem I have with him is his game management. All managers live or die depending on the results. So at the end of the season if we are in the CL spots he will stay. Next year is his crucial year. If he doesn't win he is gone.
The biggest problem I have with him is his game management. All managers live or die depending on the results. So at the end of the season if we are in the CL spots he will stay. Next year is his crucial year. If he doesn't win he is gone.
Did I mention the Spurs game in my post? There are very obvious reasons why that wasn't included in my analysis. The only truly poor big game in the league we've had is Arsenal at home. For all the others it's either been the fine margins going against us or a 90s/00s style war of attrition type of game. In which case a 0-0 is entirely reasonable. Even that aforementioned Arsenal game was only lost due to a Pogba feck up rather than anything Arteta or Arsenal had done.
We need to progress and improve on these results, I agree, but short of Ole putting his boots on and showing our attackers how it's done, I'm not sure what else he can do. The question should be posed to the players rather than the manager. All the manager can do is put the players in the position to score and there were enough decent chances created on Saturday for an ordinarily comfortable win.
You can't just throw out the intangible aspects of a manager's job as they're as important. Focus, energy and confidence can all be drawn from strong leadership at the managerial level. Motivation is a basic job requirement.
You didn't mention any games or teams specifically before you talked about the defence not creaking. You replied to a post that specifically talked about the record against Spurs, Chelsea, City, Liverpool and Arsenal and then you said "I don't remember any of those games where our defence was ever truly creaking."
Surely that includes all the games the other guy was talking about?
Also, that second paragraph. I can't believe any United fan thinks we created enough chances to win the game. Cavani missed one good chance, but there isn't a striker in the world getting one chance and scoring one goal a game. The overhead kick wasn't an easy chance. Arsenal had Pepe's blocked shot, Willian's terrible control and Lacazette hit the bar. We had a couple of other half chances, like Arsenal did. Im not saying we should've lost, I'm saying I disagree that we created enough to win the game. A draw was fair, and that's a little annoying.
Also, there is more that Ole fan do other than put on some boots and show them. That's literally the manager's job.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say we don't need a world-class manager in the vein of Pep and Klopp to win trophies. What we need is great belief and concentration.
Also, the contextual narrative behind Ole's managerial experience thus far (before United) needs unpacking. Molde and Cardiff City were never going to make a big impact on a continental or global stage. Yes, he last stint with Cardiff was an absolute disaster but he has never been in a position to actually win a major trophy. This is his first opportunity of significance with the infrastructure and resources to match (relatively speaking).
Also, the contextual narrative behind Ole's managerial experience thus far (before United) needs unpacking. Molde and Cardiff City were never going to make a big impact on a continental or global stage. Yes, he last stint with Cardiff was an absolute disaster but he has never been in a position to actually win a major trophy. This is his first opportunity of significance with the infrastructure and resources to match (relatively speaking).
Same here.... I will never understand how people can say Lingard will not be the next Messi.
What a reasonable comparison. Slower muscle recovery, losing a yard of pace and making split-second decisions are all crucial for the manager it seems.
We have a lack of playing identity. Nobody knows from one game to the next how we will play in terms of style.
He’s also very naïve tactically and it seems that his his tactical approach is ‘We’re Manchester United’ and that goals will come. Late goals came underFerguson because we were relentless, played as a team, had excellent players coached by the greatest manager in the history of world football who was able to observe the game and make tactical changes to facilitate that. Not “because we’re Manchester United”.
Yet with Ole if things aren’t going well he seems to do nothing but watch, make like for like subs most of the time and think that we simply need to have as many forward players on the pitch and that’ll suffice and we’ll score “because we’re Manchester United”
He’s also very naïve tactically and it seems that his his tactical approach is ‘We’re Manchester United’ and that goals will come. Late goals came underFerguson because we were relentless, played as a team, had excellent players coached by the greatest manager in the history of world football who was able to observe the game and make tactical changes to facilitate that. Not “because we’re Manchester United”.
Yet with Ole if things aren’t going well he seems to do nothing but watch, make like for like subs most of the time and think that we simply need to have as many forward players on the pitch and that’ll suffice and we’ll score “because we’re Manchester United”
We had an xG of 1.51 in that game, so anyone would appear more than justified in thinking we had enough chances to win the game. Arsenal's was 0.75.
Manchester United xG stats for the 2020/2021 season | Understat.com
Can you break down the chances? Because I'm missing something. What I'll always say though is stats don't tell the whole story.
I saw Arsenal hit the bar and a goal bound Pepe shot blocked and Willian mess up a half chance. I saw Cavani miss a good chance and a half chance.
I'm not remembering much more than that.
Bruno shot which was similar to Pepe's, AWB's missed chance from Shaw's cross, Fred's shot which was saved by Leno.
I can remember only these from the game, at least the one I thought should have been scored.
Edit: Rashford also had very good chance but he took too many touches.
I don't remember the Bruno shot but the Fred shot was very close. AWB would be a good chance if it wasn't a RB I guess. I wonder if xG takes stuff like that into consideration.
Rashfords is similar to Willian in that he messed it up.
So it seems to be it's a chance more either way. I wouldn't say that's comfortably enough to win a game of football, even though the margins are tighter in bigger games.
When you see certain players put in zero effort, walk around the pitch and track back with all the enthusiasm of a teenager being told to clean his room yet week after week he comes back and does the same then either;
the manager hasn’t noticed,or
the manager has noticed but lacks confidence to confront player or,
the manager has confronted player and player doesn’t care
None of these scenarios are good and yet when was the last time Rashford even got so much as a flea in his ear during a game?
This isn’t about Rashford it’s about the manager. Yes he could be doing this behind the scenes. But nobody believes he’s doing that. If he is and players continue to walk around d field as Rashford does then it speaks volumes to how much his word matters
the manager hasn’t noticed,or
the manager has noticed but lacks confidence to confront player or,
the manager has confronted player and player doesn’t care
None of these scenarios are good and yet when was the last time Rashford even got so much as a flea in his ear during a game?
This isn’t about Rashford it’s about the manager. Yes he could be doing this behind the scenes. But nobody believes he’s doing that. If he is and players continue to walk around d field as Rashford does then it speaks volumes to how much his word matters
It won't take that into consideration.
Not sure if I agree with this anymore. I also argued this a little bit, to give context, but I'm increasingly of the mind that we do have a playing style but it's just the wrong one.
Our style has pretty much been the counter attack. One we had some success with early on and likes of Rashford were on fire. Look at his goals and you will see a quick counter from our half and him running with the ball.
I've heard Ole in the past say he wanted players to shoot more from all over and we see this, and have been criticising, from Rashford in particular.
The problem I see is that teams have become aware of this and set up differently. Then we seem to run out of ideas. Even the Liverpool 3-2 was about space left on the sides for us to attack. And to be fair a game Rashford did well. Fast forward to the Sheffield game and the Arsenal one and we see a Rashford who again came under criticism (so did others and I'm not picking on Rashford for the sake of it but highlighting a point).
Martial has come under a lot of criticism and rightly so, however I've noticed that he has been getting a lot more attention from opposition players this season compared to last. At any time he can have around 3 opposition players around him. Some of this is on him (see Cavani movement for example to get space) but also our style has meant it's easy to do so.
We seem devoid of ideas if things aren't going our way. The second goal for Sheffield is the epitome of how we play a certain way, a style of you will. I don't think Rashford giving up on a player was him just being lazy, or Martial at times. I think it's an instruction to prepare for a counter in that situation. Which is all well and good if the opposition don't score.
I do out some of this on Ole as he needs to change things up. Likes of Mata would have been useful in the Sheffield game as he can use the ball well, especially in and around the box. Where pace isn't an issue as you get the ball to do the work.
Incidentally I think the reason DVB is getting less game time is that he doesn't fit the style we keep seeing. Admittedly I didn't know a lot about him previously but having seen some of his game time for his previous club he is the type of player who is into quick 1-2s, ball around the corner then get into space to receive again. Something we don't do enough, if at all. Again in my opinion because we have a set style and don't really change it.
I think Ole has done well for us in terms of changes at the club. I think the 3 year contract was in the main part to "get us back on track" and he has done that. However I never felt he was the one to take us to the promised land. I would love to have been wrong but with the 3 years approaching I don't think he is the man.
No. This is the cumulative xG. I don't know how it breaks down, but that hardly matters.
Stats don't tell the whole story, no. But for scoring chances, it at least tells a much more valid story than what you or I think about this or that chance. With an XG of 1.51, I think it's hard to make a valid case we did not have good opportunities to turn a 0-0 into a 1-0.
I know it's a conversation for a different thread at a different time but do you think it should? I think it should, which is part of the reason why stats don't tell the whole story.
Cavani on the end of that cross, and I'd be disappointed he didn't score.
I'm not going to split hairs over this. Like I've said all along, not enough to turn the 0-0 into a comfortable win, which was what I was talking about in the first place.
I think you've kind of agreed with me too, with your last sentence. A 1-0 away wouldn't be a comfortable win.
I’m not even sure the board will be - seems they’re also playing the wait and see game... I think it’s telling that he hasn’t been offered/given a new contract yet when he’s almost in to the last year of his current one.
Surely if they backed him so much, he’d have been given an extension by now.