UnofficialDevil
Anti Scottish and Preoccupied with Donkeys.
Because hes been managing for more than ten years already and shown nothing to say otherwise.I will never understand how people can make such claims with confidence.
Because hes been managing for more than ten years already and shown nothing to say otherwise.I will never understand how people can make such claims with confidence.
That Chelsea game was possibly the most depressing game ever. I don't know how you remember it going, but we certainly weren't entertaining and/or going for it.Is that because of Ole or is that because the teams in question are fearing us on the counter and no longer play expansively against us? Even so, we created enough opportunities and situations across the majority of those games to have won them. It takes two to tango after all and I don't remember any of those games where our defence was ever truly creaking so it seems to me that you're letting your opinion of our manager cloud your judgement.
You also need to look back at those games. I'm not sure we sat back yesterday or against Chelsea. We also were pretty much level pegging City who Pep actually had set up with two DMs for. Liverpool might have been a case of this but we still had the clearer chances and in any case we went blow for blow the week after and won.
It's easy to understand. Ole has been managing for a long time and has been in charge of us now for nearly two years. Whether you disagree is another matter. But its not a tiny sample size to draw a conclusion from.I will never understand how people can make such claims with confidence.
Spurs game?Is that because of Ole or is that because the teams in question are fearing us on the counter and no longer play expansively against us? Even so, we created enough opportunities and situations across the majority of those games to have won them. It takes two to tango after all and I don't remember any of those games where our defence was ever truly creaking so it seems to me that you're letting your opinion of our manager cloud your judgement.
You also need to look back at those games. I'm not sure we sat back yesterday or against Chelsea. We also were pretty much level pegging City who Pep actually had set up with two DMs for. Liverpool might have been a case of this but we still had the clearer chances and in any case we went blow for blow the week after and won.
I will never understand how people can make such claims with confidence.
Maybe because world class managers tend to prove they're worldclass before 10 years of managing?I will never understand how people can make such claims with confidence.
I can never see Ole getting to their levels, in terms of success, style or consistency.
Whatever happens with Ole from here on out, one thing he'll absolutely have above his predecessors is that he'll leave the squad in a better state than the one he inherited.
Moyes ruined a title winning side, although I think SAF does often get off a little light when it comes to the speed and manner in which he left. Club should have known internally from the season's start what he was planning/we needed more time to get a replacement for someone who had essentially been running the internal side of the club for over 20 years.
Both LVG and Jose didn't really care about the long-term of Utd, rather their own glory. The squads they left epitomised this with the short-termist squad additions (Valdes, Schweinsteiger, Sanchez, etc).
Ole isn't a world class manager, and he never will be. I'm not convinced he's good enough to win anything if I'm brutally honest, and his performances in big games this season/cup-runs have supported this.
But he has put together a very capable side with exciting options coming through. If anything, I think a better manager could get more out of them currently. It's the first time I've felt that about a squad since Fergie.
Why? The way I see it, the "clock" starts the moment you manage a team big enough to win major trophies. Managing the big boys is a completely different sport than managing a mid level team. The demands are very different. Ole's clock has only been ticking for about 2 years now, but he's done a lot of good things in that time. Who knows what his limits are? Certainly not us fans, that's for sure.
No it’s not, he set the trap and it worked it created game winning chances and we didn’t take them.But we didn't score.
In fact we've scored one goal against Spurs, Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Liverpool, Arsenal. In the league. And that goal was a 1st minute penalty in a mauling defeat.
That's entirely on Ole and his approach to these games, which is indistinguishable from Mourinho's. Sit back, defend deep, don't press, hope for a counter but struggle to move the ball up the pitch.
Also for @SquaaaadHe has had 2 and a half years to do this. I expect at least a decent improvement. But we are only slightly/minimally better than when Jose Mourinho left. Plus he has hardly given Donny Van De Beek who is a more attack minded midfielder a chance. It shouldn't take 2 and a half years to see decent improvement. How much more time do you give him.
Did I mention the Spurs game in my post? There are very obvious reasons why that wasn't included in my analysis. The only truly poor big game in the league we've had is Arsenal at home. For all the others it's either been the fine margins going against us or a 90s/00s style war of attrition type of game. In which case a 0-0 is entirely reasonable. Even that aforementioned Arsenal game was only lost due to a Pogba feck up rather than anything Arteta or Arsenal had done.Spurs game?
And you're right about teams playing tighter against us, fearing the counter that had us such a great record last season v top 6. But then now what? Can we not do anything else? Isn't it on Ole to come up with something else?
He said himself, you climb Everest and sit down, you freeze to death. Standing still is going backwards.
You can't just throw out the intangible aspects of a manager's job as they're as important. Focus, energy and confidence can all be drawn from strong leadership at the managerial level. Motivation is a basic job requirement.Did I mention the Spurs game in my post? There are very obvious reasons why that wasn't included in my analysis. The only truly poor big game in the league we've had is Arsenal at home. For all the others it's either been the fine margins going against us or a 90s/00s style war of attrition type of game. In which case a 0-0 is entirely reasonable. Even that aforementioned Arsenal game was only lost due to a Pogba feck up rather than anything Arteta or Arsenal had done.
We need to progress and improve on these results, I agree, but short of Ole putting his boots on and showing our attackers how it's done, I'm not sure what else he can do. The question should be posed to the players rather than the manager. All the manager can do is put the players in the position to score and there were enough decent chances created on Saturday for an ordinarily comfortable win.
You didn't mention any games or teams specifically before you talked about the defence not creaking. You replied to a post that specifically talked about the record against Spurs, Chelsea, City, Liverpool and Arsenal and then you said "I don't remember any of those games where our defence was ever truly creaking."Did I mention the Spurs game in my post? There are very obvious reasons why that wasn't included in my analysis. The only truly poor big game in the league we've had is Arsenal at home. For all the others it's either been the fine margins going against us or a 90s/00s style war of attrition type of game. In which case a 0-0 is entirely reasonable. Even that aforementioned Arsenal game was only lost due to a Pogba feck up rather than anything Arteta or Arsenal had done.
We need to progress and improve on these results, I agree, but short of Ole putting his boots on and showing our attackers how it's done, I'm not sure what else he can do. The question should be posed to the players rather than the manager. All the manager can do is put the players in the position to score and there were enough decent chances created on Saturday for an ordinarily comfortable win.
Same here.... I will never understand how people can say Lingard will not be the next Messi.I will never understand how people can make such claims with confidence.
Same here.... I will never understand how people can say Lingard will not be the next Messi.
You didn't mention any games or teams specifically before you talked about the defence not creaking. You replied to a post that specifically talked about the record against Spurs, Chelsea, City, Liverpool and Arsenal and then you said "I don't remember any of those games where our defence was ever truly creaking."
Surely that includes all the games the other guy was talking about?
Also, that second paragraph. I can't believe any United fan thinks we created enough chances to win the game. Cavani missed one good chance, but there isn't a striker in the world getting one chance and scoring one goal a game. The overhead kick wasn't an easy chance. Arsenal had Pepe's blocked shot, Willian's terrible control and Lacazette hit the bar. We had a couple of other half chances, like Arsenal did. Im not saying we should've lost, I'm saying I disagree that we created enough to win the game. A draw was fair, and that's a little annoying.
Also, there is more that Ole fan do other than put on some boots and show them. That's literally the manager's job.
Can you break down the chances? Because I'm missing something. What I'll always say though is stats don't tell the whole story.We had an xG of 1.51 in that game, so anyone would appear more than justified in thinking we had enough chances to win the game. Arsenal's was 0.75.
Manchester United xG stats for the 2020/2021 season | Understat.com
Can you break down the chances? Because I'm missing something. What I'll always say though is stats don't tell the whole story.
I saw Arsenal hit the bar and a goal bound Pepe shot blocked and Willian mess up a half chance. I saw Cavani miss a good chance and a half chance.
I'm not remembering much more than that.
I don't remember the Bruno shot but the Fred shot was very close. AWB would be a good chance if it wasn't a RB I guess. I wonder if xG takes stuff like that into consideration.Bruno shot which was similar to Pepe's, AWB's missed chance from Shaw's cross, Fred's shot which was saved by Leno.
I can remember only these from the game, at least the one I thought should have been scored.
Edit: Rashford also had very good chance but he took too many touches.
I don't remember the Bruno shot but the Fred shot was very close. AWB would be a good chance if it wasn't a RB I guess. I wonder if xG takes stuff like that into consideration.
Rashfords is similar to Willian in that he messed it up.
So it seems to be it's a chance more either way. I wouldn't say that's comfortably enough to win a game of football, even though the margins are tighter in bigger games.
We have a lack of playing identity. Nobody knows from one game to the next how we will play in terms of style.
He’s also very naïve tactically and it seems that his his tactical approach is ‘We’re Manchester United’ and that goals will come. Late goals came underFerguson because we were relentless, played as a team, had excellent players coached by the greatest manager in the history of world football who was able to observe the game and make tactical changes to facilitate that. Not “because we’re Manchester United”.
Yet with Ole if things aren’t going well he seems to do nothing but watch, make like for like subs most of the time and think that we simply need to have as many forward players on the pitch and that’ll suffice and we’ll score “because we’re Manchester United”
Can you break down the chances? Because I'm missing something. What I'll always say though is stats don't tell the whole story.
I saw Arsenal hit the bar and a goal bound Pepe shot blocked and Willian mess up a half chance. I saw Cavani miss a good chance and a half chance.
I'm not remembering much more than that.
I know it's a conversation for a different thread at a different time but do you think it should? I think it should, which is part of the reason why stats don't tell the whole story.It won't take that into consideration.
I'm not going to split hairs over this. Like I've said all along, not enough to turn the 0-0 into a comfortable win, which was what I was talking about in the first place.No. This is the cumulative xG. I don't know how it breaks down, but that hardly matters.
Stats don't tell the whole story, no. But for scoring chances, it at least tells a much more valid story than what you or I think about this or that chance. With an XG of 1.51, I think it's hard to make a valid case we did not have good opportunities to turn a 0-0 into a 1-0.
If we finish top 4 but trophyless, who will be content with giving him another season?
Read it again. I said *majority* of those games, not any. As I said, the Spurs game and maybe the City and Arsenal home games are the ones where you could argue that on the balance of play and quality of chances created that we didn't deserve a win (though in the case of the latter two we didn't necessarily deserve a loss either).You didn't mention any games or teams specifically before you talked about the defence not creaking. You replied to a post that specifically talked about the record against Spurs, Chelsea, City, Liverpool and Arsenal and then you said "I don't remember any of those games where our defence was ever truly creaking."
Surely that includes all the games the other guy was talking about?
Also, that second paragraph. I can't believe any United fan thinks we created enough chances to win the game. Cavani missed one good chance, but there isn't a striker in the world getting one chance and scoring one goal a game. The overhead kick wasn't an easy chance. Arsenal had Pepe's blocked shot, Willian's terrible control and Lacazette hit the bar. We had a couple of other half chances, like Arsenal did. Im not saying we should've lost, I'm saying I disagree that we created enough to win the game. A draw was fair, and that's a little annoying.
Also, there is more that Ole fan do other than put on some boots and show them. That's literally the manager's job.
I'd suggest you watch Ole's interview on the High Performance podcast on YouTube where this was explicitly asked of him. These things don't go unnoticed by Ole. He just keep it in house and gives that player enough rope to either save himself or hang himself. He did it with Lingard and Pereira last season and he'll do it with anyone else who doesn't meet the standards.When you see certain players put in zero effort, walk around the pitch and track back with all the enthusiasm of a teenager being told to clean his room yet week after week he comes back and does the same then either;
the manager hasn’t noticed,or
the manager has noticed but lacks confidence to confront player or,
the manager has confronted player and player doesn’t care
None of these scenarios are good and yet when was the last time Rashford even got so much as a flea in his ear during a game?
This isn’t about Rashford it’s about the manager. Yes he could be doing this behind the scenes. But nobody believes he’s doing that. If he is and players continue to walk around d field as Rashford does then it speaks volumes to how much his word matters
To be fair, your English in getting that across wasn't very good then. You didn't make it clear you were talking about the majority of the games when you said "any of the games". It seemed like 2 different points.Read it again. I said *majority* of those games, not any. As I said, the Spurs game and maybe the City and Arsenal home games are the ones where you could argue that on the balance of play and quality of chances created that we didn't deserve a win (though in the case of the latter two we didn't necessarily deserve a loss either).
We easily had 2 very, very good chances for Cavani (or if you don't want to count the volley then Martial was running on to it and would have had an even easier chance). Rashford should have had at least one, though I'll cut him some slack as it was on his left foot. Bruno 's shot in the first half also, where he'd done Luiz on the inside and was one on one with Leno in the box and could have got nearer before shooting was another decent chance too. If you're wanting to count Lacazette's free kick then why are you saying Cavani's volley shouldn't be counted? It's a lot easier to score from Cavani's position than it was Lacazette's. Willian's was a decent chance, I'll agree though Pepe's was very unlikely to go in.
Re your last point: I'd suggest you take a look at the stats: we're consistently among the highest big chance creating teams in the league (3rd, slightly behind Liverpool and City - with the team at the top of that (City) only creating 4 more than we have). However, we top the league in terms of big chances missed, with 40. That just isn't sustainable and if we do want to get anything out of this season, our forwards need to turn up. This isn't a Jose team who sit back after going a goal or two up.
We can apply that logic in reverse as well. Bruno scored an amazing goal against Liverpool. Pogba similarly scored several worldies in the past few weeks. These moments were purely individual efforts which we cannot put on Ole. Truth is in the middle. We don't create enough chances and need our forwards to take few chances we get which is not possible for even someone as good as Cavani. That is the problem, we have improved from last year in that respect and with more signings will improve further. Can we take the final step up though?Bit embarrassing the swing in here
Going on about the big games being goalless, I’m not sure how it’s pinned on ole
Liverpool two huge chances to score, pogba 6 yards out.
Arsenal two huge chances to score, Rashford and Cavani 6 yards out (maybe 3)
Ole had done his part, he can’t put the ball in the net for them.
I mean, I'm not sure how much better I could get that point across than by literally saying MAJORITY in the sentence but it's a minor quibble.To be fair, your English in getting that across wasn't very good then. You didn't make it clear you were talking about the majority of the games when you said "any of the games". It seemed like 2 different points.
Re. The chances, I've said I'm not splitting hairs. I agree on most of your post, but I'll still say that doesn't mean we did enough to win "comfortably", which is what others have said.
It's interesting as at other times, our forwards have been extremely clinical. Right now they're not being clinical. They're actually underperforming, like you said. But that doesn't mean a managers job is done, does it? It's about guiding the players through those spells, which we have no idea how well Ole is doing to be honest.
Like I've said all along, I don't think we did enough against Arsenal to win comfortably. Do I think we could have won, yes?