*If* Milan knock out Barcelona...

[Mad Winger]

Not saying they can't cause a upset or can't win, but 2nd favorites they aren't.

I agree with this. But they're definitely right up there(if not better than) teams like Juventus, City, PSG etc.

I would personally say Dortmund is the 5th best team in the world right now. 7th at the very worst.

 

[Fergus' son]

And here we get to the core of the problem: you don't rate the Bundesliga.

They've won the Bundesliga two years in a row and while also winning the German Cup and pissing all over the likes of Real, City, Ajax and Arsenal(to a certain degree) in Europe. I think that should be sufficient to earn at least some respect. You'd have to be a complete moron to think otherwise.

Also, learn how to read. I didn't put Klopp ahead of Fergie and Mourinho. I simply wrote that amongst the "new" up-and-coming managers, he stands out. His merits speak for themselves.

Lastly, very few people here put Dortmund in the same ranks as Barca, Real or us. That is only fair. What's also fair however, is to put them in the same ranks as Juventus and City at least. They've more than earned it.

Dortmund strike me as a great cup team, can beat anyone on thier day. If Utd don't make it to the final I'd like to see Dortmnd vs either Barcelona or Munich, would make fantastic viewing.

 

[Cevno]

And here we get to the core of the problem: you don't rate the Bundesliga.

They've won the Bundesliga two years in a row and while also winning the German Cup and pissing all over the likes of Real, City, Ajax and Arsenal(to a certain degree) in Europe. I think that should be sufficient to earn at least some respect. You'd have to be a complete moron to think otherwise.

Also, learn how to read. I didn't put Klopp ahead of Fergie and Mourinho. I simply wrote that amongst the "new" up-and-coming managers, he stands out. His merits speak for themselves.

Lastly, very few people here put Dortmund in the same ranks as Barca, Real or us. That is only fair. What's also fair however, is to put them in the same ranks as Juventus and City at least. They've more than earned it.

Pissed on ? That's a bit of a exaggeration..

 

[That'sHernandez]

And here we get to the core of the problem: you don't rate the Bundesliga.

They've won the Bundesliga two years in a row and while also winning the German Cup and pissing all over the likes of Real, City, Ajax and Arsenal(to a certain degree) in Europe. I think that should be sufficient to earn at least some respect. You'd have to be a complete moron to think otherwise.

Also, learn how to read. I didn't put Klopp ahead of Fergie and Mourinho. I simply wrote that amongst the "new" up-and-coming managers, he stands out. His merits speak for themselves.

Lastly, very few people here put Dortmund in the same ranks as Barca, Real or us. That is only fair. What's also fair however, is to put them in the same ranks as Juventus and City at least. They've more than earned it.

It has nothing to do with rating the Bundesliga, you're reading what you want into what I am saying. I haven't actually mentioned the quality of the Bundesliga once, or implied that it was easy for them to win. What I have said is I don't rate their teams in comparison to United's, Real's or Barca's.

The Champions League starts in-proper in the knock-out stages. The group stages are relatively low pressure in comparison. You're making out like they're some world beaters because they have had a couple of good seasons. I'm not saying they aren't the best of the rest, they probably are, but there is far too much wanking going on over a team that isn't any more special than the likes of United or Barcelona.

 

[Mad Winger]

Pissed on ? That's a bit of a exaggeration..

They were clearly the best team on all occasions though. The only exception would be away against Real, which was a pretty even game in terms of big chances.

 

[Mad Winger]

but there is far too much wanking going on over a team that isn't any more special than the likes of United or Barcelona.

Very few people(if anyone) claim that Dortmund is better than Barca or us, though. I've yet to see anyone(even Dortmund fans) claim that.

The reason people wank over Dortmund is because they're one of the few legitimately classy underdogs. They play beautiful and effective football, without signing big names(bar Reus). To top it off, they actually manage to get good results against good teams. You can say what you want about the group stages: it's awesome to end up at the top of the group they were in. I know most United fans would have been delighted and maybe even surprised if we did the same.

 

[Thisistheone]

Starting 11 vs United at home in 2010:

Butt
Lahm, van Buyten, Demichelis, Badstuber
van Bommel, Pranjic
Altintop, Müller, Ribery
Olic​

Most likely in the quarter finals this season

Neuer
Lahm, Boateng, Dante, Alaba
Schweinsteiger, Martinez
Müller, Kroos, Ribery
Mandzukic​

That's one bloody strong team. Considerably better than the 2010 one imo. Bayern are favourites if Barca exit. We'd be in the bracket below.

A dream 1/4 final draw for us would probably be:

Bayern v Juventus
Dortmund v PSG
Porto v Milan
Utd v Gala/Schalke

and then

Bayern v Dortmund
Utd v Milan

Not too much to ask for right?

 

[Balu]

That's elaborate. Let me thank you for that. I totally understand and buy the reasons listed out by you. But still I don't think they have done or won enough to justify the level they are at in people's eyes(i forgot to add this to my previous post). I do rate their squad and envy some players that bayern have, but still as a club they need to be dominating and consistent to hold the kind of reputation they have right now. While in recent times they have been anything but that.
I have the same problem with Real. This season, right from the beginning, Barca, Real and Bayern have been top 3 clubs in europe. All it took us to end up a level considerably lower than their's was one CL early exit. After amazing consistency over the last 5 years.

I never bought into the Real hype as well and I get your point about the hype surrounding Bayern on here. So yes, Bayern still has to prove that they can win the competition. Though I think to predict who's the better team, you should have a look at the development of players, tactics over the last years, not only at results. I think Bayern are a step closer to their peak compared to United. Doesn't tell us who will come out on top, in 2010 it was the other way round but Bayern won the tie.

 

[Oggmonster]

It has nothing to do with rating the Bundesliga, you're reading what you want into what I am saying. I haven't actually mentioned the quality of the Bundesliga once, or implied that it was easy for them to win. What I have said is I don't rate their teams in comparison to United's, Real's or Barca's.

The Champions League starts in-proper in the knock-out stages. The group stages are relatively low pressure in comparison. You're making out like they're some world beaters because they have had a couple of good seasons. I'm not saying they aren't the best of the rest, they probably are, but there is far too much wanking going on over a team that isn't any more special than the likes of United or Barcelona.

Group games tend to be low pressure because top teams get easy ties. I.e. Braga in our group or that Danish team in Chelsea's group. That wasn't the case for Dortmund, they got left with Madrid, who are the Spanish Champions, City who are the English champions and a banana skin in Ajax. It's not low pressure in a group like that, if anything it's high pressure to get out of it, you haven't really got any bankers in there which you can think you'd get at least 6 points from. Every away tie is tough and even some home ties you'd struggle.

However much people might not want to praise City they are champions of England and have always been praised for their midfield, Dortmund in both games completely blew them away. Joe Hart had a brilliant game at home and they got outclassed and shown up big time in Dortmund and were lucky it was only 1-0. To give credit to Dortmund that was by far the hardest group and they were probably unlucky not to win every game in it (though they didn't lose either.)

I don't think they'll win the competition but I'd not want to face them at the same time, would rather someone else had to try and knock them out, they have a lot of talent in that team and I don't quite buy your comments about them doing shit last year...United didn't qualify either but there's no question about their quality, players might take a season to adapt to European competition and it looks like they've done that at the moment.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I think one of the reasons Dortmund are rated so highly in the CL this year, irrespective of their domestic campaign, is that their style of play seems to be very suited to the competition. Last year, there was a lot of naivety in their approach to games, and they threw away a few ties where they should've done better (such as the final tie against OM, for example). But this year, they seem to understand the competition much better, there's more maturity and more patience in their approach, and their capacity to counter so efficiently is a big bonus in the competition. Their capacity to play either with or without possession makes them a team to reckon with. No one's saying they're on the same level as us or Bayern or whatever, but they've definitely made a case in the group games to show they shouldn't be discarded too easily.

 

[Cina]

And they did sweet FA in it last season in a relatively easy group. Granted, we were shocking too but we were also in the final the previous season. Again, what makes them so special?

So we're judging them based on last season, not this season?

In that case, Chelsea are the best team!

 

[Cevno]

They were clearly the best team on all occasions though. The only exception would be away against Real, which was a pretty even game in terms of big chances.

Van Persie burnt them against Arsenal. They got a consolation goal late at the Emirates while in Germany they were the better team but tactically naive vs a Arsenal team who themselves are famous for the same. Not sure why you included Arsenal anyway.

Against AJax i didn't really watch the games and Ajax are a ordinary team in Europe right now.

Real were the better team at home and had clearly the better chances(more than they created against us). Away Dortmund were better but it was hardly a pissing on.

Against City they were the better team in both games but it still was a 1 goal margin spread over both games.

I think people with them get a bit carried away by the style of play. They are a good team, and won't be my first choice to face next round as they can certainly cause a upset but they aren't a team that i'll be second most fearful of either.

 

[Mad Winger]

Van Persie burnt them against Arsenal. They got a consolation goal late at the Emirates while in Germany they were the better team but tactically naive vs a Arsenal team who themselves are famous for the same. Not sure why you included Arsenal anyway.

I think they deserved to win both games against Arsenal..

At the end of the day Dortmund did finish at the very top of the group of death deservedly. They've also won the last 2 Bundesligas, which is the 3rd best league in the world. They've definitely deserved their respect. If you're gonna "laugh" at someone, choose the people who wank over PSG and Juventus. Both these teams have proven much less than Dortmund.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

If Barcelona get knocked out, it's anyone's trophy. There's not one stand out team, I still don't think we're an excellent team and we've got to be one of the bigger favourites.

 

[Cevno]

If Barcelona get knocked out, it's anyone's trophy. There's not one stand out team, I still don't think we're an excellent team and we've got to be one of the bigger favourites.

Yep this.

 

[Mad Winger]

If Barcelona get knocked out, it's anyone's trophy.

In my opinion, that's always the case.

1 out 3 times(!) an underdog takes home the trophy. In the last 9 seasons, Porto, Liverpool and Chelsea has won it. None of these sides were even close to be considered amongst the favorites when they won it.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I dunno if it's always the case, I didn't see us going all the way but I feel a little differently about it should Barcelona go out. I'm sure fans of teams like Milan, Juventus, and Dortmund feel the same.

 

[Liam147]

I must admit I'm surprised with how low Dortmund have been rated. I'd even go as far as to say that calling them dark horses is disrespectful. They're where they are on merit, not luck.

If Barca do go out, I imagine the odds will be ordered something like:
Bayern
Dortmund
Juventus
Milan
Madrid
United
The Rest

But as it happens, we play before that leg, so the winner of the tie will get bumped up. If Madrid win, I reckon they'll be slight favourites. If we win, I think it'll be Bayern with us slightly behind, then Dortmund behind them.

 

[Mad Winger]

I dunno if it's always the case, I didn't see us going all the way but I feel a little differently about it should Barcelona go out. I'm sure fans of teams like Milan, Juventus, and Dortmund feel the same.

Yeah, the chances of winning definitely increases when the biggest teams go out. It's weird to think that we might not have a single La Liga team in the top 8 this year

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

If Barcelona get knocked out, it's anyone's trophy. There's not one stand out team, I still don't think we're an excellent team and we've got to be one of the bigger favourites.

Barca were never sure fire favorites this year, in my eyes. Their defense is shambolic and Valdes is having a rotten year. And if Messi doesn't score they are in trouble.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Yeah, the chances of winning definitely increases when the biggest teams go out. It's weird to think that we might not have a single La Liga team in the top 8 this year

And one English team.

It's a testament to the strength of Barcelona I suppose that everyone will fancy their chances should they go out.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Barca were never sure fire favorites this year, in my eyes. Their defense is shambolic and Valdes is having a rotten year. And if Messi doesn't score they are in trouble.

Best of a bad bunch in my opinion, people were going on about how English football has weakened but I reckon it's European football as a whole. There's no team in Europe that I'd fear playing, but Barcelona do have the greatest player of all time.

 

[Cevno]

Barca were never sure fire favorites this year, in my eyes. Their defense is shambolic and Valdes is having a rotten year. And if Messi doesn't score they are in trouble.

Yep. But i never fancied us coming up vs them.

We don't tend to play the type of game that beats them in Europe.

Btw, we have reached more finals than Barca in the last 5 seasons.

 

[Cevno]

I thought there was a decent chance of Barca getting beaten, but i didn't fancy us doing it if that makes any sense.

 

[Red Dreams]

Surely if Milan beat Barca, they should be in with a shout.

Lots of good teams left. We have a huge job beating Madrid still though.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Barcelona are a better team to us, I would have feared playing them.

Also, as Cevno pointed out we'd never play them with a Milan or Celtic type game plan, resulting in a loss.

 

[Cina]

Surely if Milan beat Barca, they should be in with a shout.

Lots of good teams left. We have a huge job beating Madrid still though.

Aye, it's foolish to underestimate Milan in the CL. For some reason they always bring their A game even when they don't have a good team.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Wasn't that Milan's first home win in the Champions League this season? Again, I wouldn't fear them, the same way they wouldn't fear us.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

Barcelona are a better team to us, I would have feared playing them.

Also, as Cevno pointed out we'd never play them with a Milan or Celtic type game plan, resulting in a loss.

Oh yes. Wouldn't fancy us against Barca. We are wank against an opposition that plays high pressing. Think Barca 09, 11 and Bilbao 12.

It's one of the reasons Dortmund is the team I least fancy in the next round should we get there. Even less than Bayern.

 

[Liam147]

I'd expect us to beat Milan. Milan came second in a group with Malaga, Zenit and Anderlecht. I saw Malaga and they offered nothing to Porto. The fact is, they played Barca with a tried and tested gameplan, and executed it perfectly. Coming against any other top side, I'd expect them to get knocked out.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Yeah, Milan wouldn't play us with the eleven men crowding the box, defending. We've width anyway...

 

[Snake Plissken]

Don't agree with the thread.

Even if Barca get through its anyones trophy. Anyone has a chance against their defence, just need the same sort of defensive discipline Milan showed.

 

[Varun]

I'd be really confident if we faced Milan. But, its far from a done deal between them and Barca anyways. Barca can easily run riot if they bring their A game to the Nou camp

 

[gza the genius]

I thought if a good team gets knocked out then it doesn't count for anyone else except for the team that knocks them out?

Basically, if Milan knock them out and then get knocked out themselves a lot of people will try to say whoever wins had an easy route.

 

[Cina]

Don't agree with the thread.

Even if Barca get through its anyones trophy. Anyone has a chance against their defence, just need the same sort of defensive discipline Milan showed.

Barcelona are the favourites (or were until last night), it's not really a debatable topic.

 

[Andrew~]

It's nice to see our fans are regaining some of the old arrogance we had about our team but... some people in this thread are taking it too far. Put Bayern Munich to the sword? Naive. It would be a very tough match; Bayern have some seriously good players, I just don't think they are better than us. We've at about the same level and it would probably be a really good match to watch.

 

[Pink Moon]

Pissed on ? That's a bit of a exaggeration..

They certainly pissed on City in Manchester. Dortmund at City and Barcelona at Arsenal in 09/10 are the two most one-sided, great attacking performances I've seen in the Champions League. Funnily enough neither team won the match.

 

[Balu]

I thought if a good team gets knocked out then it doesn't count for anyone else except for the team that knocks them out?

Basically, if Milan knock them out and then get knocked out themselves a lot of people will try to say whoever wins had an easy route.

If United/Real faces 2 out of Bayern, Dortmund and Juventus on the way to the title, no one will call that easy.

 

[I'm always right]

Best of a bad bunch in my opinion, people were going on about how English football has weakened but I reckon it's European football as a whole. There's no team in Europe that I'd fear playing, but Barcelona do have the greatest player of all time.

Completely disagree with this. Just because there's no team you "fear" doesn't mean European football has weakened. We have improved, Juve have improved, PSG have improved and then we have Bayern and Dortmund who have improved massively.

 

[Red Dreams]

Barca are still the favourites imo. They can easily turn ove that two goal lead.
But after them, it could be anybody really.

A pretty open tournament really.

Beat Real and we have a damn good chance.