Injury Crisis 2023/24 | Martínez and Casemiro back in training

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
133,908
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
I was awaiting the inevitable response claiming it’s all one big coincidence. Rather than claiming the science is “sloppy as hell”, would you care to explain why it is so?

Lockdowns to blame 3.5 years ago is it then? Football continued as usual, as you well know. As did most other sports. Just behind closed doors. And there’s far more studies than the two I linked, but I’m not sure spamming studies is beneficial. You’ll just come back and say “no it can’t be covid, it’s just a cold”. As you’ve done multiple times in the past when this subject has popped up.

You also know full well professional athletes do not test for covid anymore. It is not a requirement, and is in fact discouraged. Plenty of players have missed games recently citing “illness”, they just never specify what it is. Some may be covid, it may not be. But they certainly aren’t avoiding infection since they’re mixing as usual, just as we all are. Or are you going to claim covid isn’t infecting anyone anymore? It is literally impossible to avoid Covid now unless you isolate yourself away completely from human life/mask etc. Footballers certainly aren’t doing that.

But seeing as I actually bothered to link some scientific research which did highlight a heightened risk of injury after infection, would you care to provide some evidence/science to the contrary? More than happy to see those and discuss. I’m also happy to link even more studies showing the musculoskeletal impacts of covid.

And you cite the World Cup. The women’s game didn’t have the winter World Cup yet their injuries are as bad. Nor did the NFL, MLB, or tennis. But you conveniently skipped past those injury crises.

So just to clarify, you genuinely believe it’s just one big massive coincidence?

What will the excuse be when the situation is even worse next season? And is for the other sports too? And then seven worse the season after that? Or will it all just resolve itself and cease to be a problem?
Why not just read the studies you link? Even the abstract would help you understand what I’m on about?

The study on a link between athletes getting muscle strains after covid infection was done in 2020. When athletes tested regularly and had to self isolate after a positive test. Hence the authors speculate that “ short-term detraining effects due to quarantine,.” might be the reason for the injuries.

I have no idea why you spend a lengthy paragraph ranting on about covid being still round today and not tested for as much as it was the past. Erm…. no shit? And… so what?

And no, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we’re seeing more injuries in most sports. As I said, there’s been a bloating of schedules in all professional sports to make up for lost time and revenue after covid. Again, this is in the articles you post. The article about NFL injuries specifically mentions that the uptick in injuries came after additional games were added to the season.

And to be clear, the main reason I’m extremely sceptical about what you’re claiming is that it seems incredibly unlikely that a new member of a class of viruses that has been round since forever has a unique muscle corroding quality. That’s an extraordinary claim so will need extraordinary evidence to support it. None of which you’ve provided.
 
Last edited:

RedSky

Shepherd’s Delight
Scout
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
74,259
Location
Hereford FC (Soccermanager)
Agree with this. It's poor management with any player but especially so with someone who has the injury history of Shaw. I was surprised he started against Bournemouth because it seemed so obvious that he couldn't keep playing every few days after just coming back and on paper that seemed the logical game to rest him.
I posted this back in November before Shaw returned from injury.

You don't get this amount of injuries and niggles through bad luck. If you push their bodies to much, too often, injuries will occur. Who's to say our medical/training staff are pulling their hair out as ETH ignores them? Its all just wild speculation as none of us ultimately know.

All I see is players returning from injury and being started game after game. It'll happen with Shaw, he'll come back and immediately start every game then get himself injured again.
It's just too predictable. Yes we needed Shaw in the team, but we had options. Reguillon was on the bench in every game Shaw started. He could have been rotated, starting one game a week. Gradually build up his fitness and strength. Not all the injuries are on Ten Hag, some are just bad luck. But Shaw is 100% on Ten Hag, very poor management. It doesn't matter if the player says he's fit, he's the one paid to make the decisions not the players.
 

neon_badger

Full Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2023
Messages
376
Location
Timperley
Oh no, do I even dare look at the twitter comments?
"Now Footballs gone woke, too many bloody foreigners, scared to do a days graft, bring back proper players like Julian Dicks, In my day all we needed was a magic sponge and half an orange, never did us any harm! Oi Lineker noooo!!"
 

LawCharltonBest

Enjoys watching fox porn
Joined
May 17, 2012
Messages
15,275
Location
Salford
Shaw out for 5 weeks?

One of our better players but I’d bin him (serious)

Every time he comes back, you know it’s not going to last long before he goes back on holiday
 

neon_badger

Full Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2023
Messages
376
Location
Timperley
Shaw out for 5 weeks?

One of our better players but I’d bin him (serious)

Every time he comes back, you know it’s not going to last long before he goes back on holiday
A more organised club would perhaps have set something in place to find a long term replacement anticipating his inevitable decline, and phase him out, I like Shaw but his position requires elite levels of athleticism and we need consistent starters, as we are currently witnessing a defence with a revolving door of players equals carnage. Maybe Malacia was intended to replace Shaw but his injuries and brief appearances suggest he's not stepping up anytime soon.
 

Robaldo

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 25, 2015
Messages
347
It’s just classic daily Mail clickbait. All corporations want to be seen to embrace diversity so there’s always an expectation to build some goals related into diversity into any big project. Especially if it relates to personnel. So obviously the Mail will have taken a bullet point from page three of the proposal and make it their headline.
Very good comment.

I was perturbed by the headline as it implies that we’re ignoring meritocracy but, as you’ve said, the Mail do focus on certain aspects - although I’m surprised Adam Crafton goes along with that.
 

Ludens the Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
17,475
Location
London
It’s not just football though. Tennis players blaming the balls, football players blaming number of matches.


It’s almost as if there’s currently a pandemic in which people keep getting reinfected with a virus shown to induce muscular damage.

COVID negatively impacts body composition/muscle function

Association between SARS‐COV‐2 infection and muscle strain injury occurrence in elite male football players

The study above reported a five times higher risk of developing a muscle strain after a SARS-CoV-2 infection in elite male football players.

Since more time that’s passed = more infections, you’d expect the situation to worsen year by year, which it is doing.

The women’s game hasn’t escaped the injuries either.

Arsenal Women’s list of injuries just keeps growing – 43% of players injured

Oh and just across the Atlantic. Injury crisis in the NFL.

What’s Causing the NFL’s QB Injury Crisis?

MLB too. They’re trying to blame the pitch clock though rather than number of games or the balls. Such an amazing coincidence every major sport has an injury crisis.

Major League Baseball Increased Injury Severity
That seems a little far fetched buddy. Even the links don’t really prove emphatically what you’re suggesting. I think you’ve put two and two and got 400.
 

KD6-3.7

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 24, 2020
Messages
514
I really don't know why fans want to always keep Shaw. He has pretty much been injured for over half his United career and I have zero doubts he is one of the culprits with a few others that start the whole toxic dressing room that happens when a manager is close to the sack
 

Manncunian

Full Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
1,050
Location
Manchester
That seems a little far fetched buddy. Even the links don’t really prove emphatically what you’re suggesting. I think you’ve put two and two and got 400.
I’ve provided two studies.

The first clearly demonstrating, and I quote:

“Skeletal muscle can be affected, leading to fatigue, lower mobility, weakness, and poor physical performance.” It also states “Current evidence suggests that long COVID negatively impacts body composition and muscle function”

So a link between covid and musculoskeletal symptoms exists. Yes, this is long covid, but it is the same virus and it is impacting skeletal muscle. What is far fetched here?

The second study specifically states:

“This study reported a five times higher risk of developing a muscle strain after a SARS-CoV-2 infection in elite male football players.”

However, yes, the study has limitations. As it states itself, “it is possible that short-term detraining effects due to quarantine” contribute to the results.

But, as also stated, it is possible that the “potentially pathological effects of the SARS-CoV-2 infection are associated with a higher risk of muscle strain injury.”

Hence it could be the quarantine impact, or it could be the virus. Why is it far fetched to explore either option, specifically the pathological impact?

All I’ve done is relay scientific studies and I’m somehow making 2+2=400? It seems more like you’re making 2+2=0.

Forgetting Covid specifically, it’s common knowledge that many viruses can cause Myositis during, and for some time after, infection.

In myositis, inflammation damages the fibres of a muscle. This causes muscles to be weak by interfering with the ability of the muscles to contract. See link below.

Harvard Health: Myositis

“Myositis sometimes occurs as part of a systemic (whole body) infection, especially a viral infection. It is especially common among people who have the flu (influenza).” I’m struggling to see the far fetched aspect of this hypothesis?

This why you shouldn’t partake in resistance training whilst suffering with a viral infection. Risk of injury goes up. That’s a fact.

Since influenza causes Myositis, it stands to reason that Covid could, as well as other pathogens. Nobody is trying to suggest that covid has some kind of special muscle corroding or dissolving effect, like Pogue is trying to say I’m claiming. It’s simply inflammation.

Covid is far more prevalent than influenza right now (see below as an example, using LA data here as can’t access local data). So people are likely to continue to be exposed. Anecdotally, I know people who’ve had it at least twice already (some 5+), including myself. People are catching it more often than flu at the moment. I’ve had flu once in my 34 years of life, and covid twice in 14 months. But it doesn’t even really matter whether it’s flu or covid, Myositis is entirely possible.



If footballers (men and women) are playing during and/or straight after infection, then they are surely at risk of Myositis? The same goes for tennis players, NFL players, baseball players etc. Which could explain the injuries (not saying it definitely does). Or are you dismissing the potential here?

As for bloated schedules being the reason, tennis has had no such thing and have had no kind of catch up since the pandemic. And WSL only plays 22 games per season compared to our 38. Spurs have a huge injury crisis and have had no European football this season. We also now have five substitutions instead of three which reduces the risk of injury further.

I’m saying it could well be related to Covid, but of course, it may well not be. I’d say the above gives reason to explore this further though, rather than dismiss it completely and assume it’s something else. The thing is, covid is a constant across all sports. More games/bloated schedules/playing catch up isn’t a constant across all sports, as explained above.
 

Oranges038

Full Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
12,187
It’s amazing isn’t it. We continually get told football players are fitter than they’ve ever been. But absolutely nothing shows that to be the case. The amount of muscle based injuries that are ever increasing over the years would actually suggest the opposite to me. I don’t know if it’s the diet or the physical training regime or both but something is up. They’re getting it very very wrong somewhere. When you go through the PL you’re seeing teams with double digits of players out injured, something is clearly not right and it’s not the World Cup or the amount of games because it’s happening all through the league.
They just need to go back to drinking 12 pints after every game and training. Real men never got injured back in the day when they did this.
 

gaffs

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
12,823
Location
Moscow 08, Rome 09, London 11
I really don't know why fans want to always keep Shaw. He has pretty much been injured for over half his United career and I have zero doubts he is one of the culprits with a few others that start the whole toxic dressing room that happens when a manager is close to the sack
Agree re his injury record. But unfair to suggest he is an issue in the dressing room.
 

KD6-3.7

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 24, 2020
Messages
514
Agree re his injury record. But unfair to suggest he is an issue in the dressing room.
He has been here since the LVG days so I’d imagine he has a big influence in the dressing room.

Just think he is a major sick note and that alone should be reason enough to get rid of him but I can’t see it happening.
 

gaffs

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
12,823
Location
Moscow 08, Rome 09, London 11
He has been here since the LVG days so I’d imagine he has a big influence in the dressing room.

Just think he is a major sick note and that alone should be reason enough to get rid of him but I can’t see it happening.
Criticizing his injury record, fair.

Saying " I have zero doubts he is one of the culprits with a few others that start the whole toxic dressing room" is mere speculation based on absolutely nothing.
 

Ludens the Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
17,475
Location
London
One thing that grates me about our injuries is the constant lack of transparency. I feel like it was the same under Ole. It was constant mixed messages on timeframes players would be out for.

Take Mason Mount for example. He had a minor calf injury iirc. He was literally shown training on December 1st (two entire weeks ago) yet he is still not available for selection. I get it for players like Amad, Casemiro etc who have been out a long time so they have more staggered return training but what the feck is going on with Mount.
 

Red in STL

Turnover not takeover
Joined
Dec 1, 2022
Messages
9,767
Location
In Bed
Supports
The only team that matters
One thing that grates me about our injuries is the constant lack of transparency. I feel like it was the same under Ole. It was constant mixed messages on timeframes players would be out for.

Take Mason Mount for example. He had a minor calf injury iirc. He was literally shown training on December 1st (two entire weeks ago) yet he is still not available for selection. I get it for players like Amad, Casemiro etc who have been out a long time so they have more staggered return training but what the feck is going on with Mount.
You don't need to know and neither do opposition teams, if they know player X is going to be out they can plan based on that, if said player might be available then they can't
 

Ali Dia

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
14,321
Location
Souness's Super Sub/George Weahs Talented Cousin
Ok so from a longer term squad building perspective who is the best gettable young LB prospect in the game? Barco? Can we get him? Who is next if we can’t, stop with the loans. Imagine we’d loaned someone instead of buying shaw? It’s just stupidly short term. We should always be planning with future seasons in mind and creating tougher competition and higher plying standards in the squad
 

Ludens the Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
17,475
Location
London
You don't need to know and neither do opposition teams, if they know player X is going to be out they can plan based on that, if said player might be available then they can't
No I’m not talking about 50/50’s a few days before a match day. I’m talking, United saying a player is going to be out for 3 weeks and then they’re out for 6 months type of thing.
 

Gandalf

Full Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
4,786
Location
Alabama but always Wales in my heart
You don't need to know and neither do opposition teams, if they know player X is going to be out they can plan based on that, if said player might be available then they can't
To some degree that makes sense but this is not a game like the NFL with specific plays being run based on personnel during the game. PSG might want to be secretive about the availability of Mbappe as that could majorly impact the oppositions plans but the veil of secrecy over Malacia for example is just baffling.
 

Cantonagotmehere

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
3,341
Location
Charm City, MD
I'm sure the medical staff/training is another one of our shite problems, but the all these teams plays too much football. It's the main reason I am glad we finished 4th in the group. Less games for guys to get run into the ground when ETH 'went for it'. Shaw should have been on a 'low pitch count' for sure. That is a big one on ETH and/or whoever is advising him there.
 

Ludens the Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
17,475
Location
London
I’ve provided two studies.

The first clearly demonstrating, and I quote:

“Skeletal muscle can be affected, leading to fatigue, lower mobility, weakness, and poor physical performance.” It also states “Current evidence suggests that long COVID negatively impacts body composition and muscle function”

So a link between covid and musculoskeletal symptoms exists. Yes, this is long covid, but it is the same virus and it is impacting skeletal muscle. What is far fetched here?

The second study specifically states:

“This study reported a five times higher risk of developing a muscle strain after a SARS-CoV-2 infection in elite male football players.”

However, yes, the study has limitations. As it states itself, “it is possible that short-term detraining effects due to quarantine” contribute to the results.

But, as also stated, it is possible that the “potentially pathological effects of the SARS-CoV-2 infection are associated with a higher risk of muscle strain injury.”

Hence it could be the quarantine impact, or it could be the virus. Why is it far fetched to explore either option, specifically the pathological impact?

All I’ve done is relay scientific studies and I’m somehow making 2+2=400? It seems more like you’re making 2+2=0.

Forgetting Covid specifically, it’s common knowledge that many viruses can cause Myositis during, and for some time after, infection.

In myositis, inflammation damages the fibres of a muscle. This causes muscles to be weak by interfering with the ability of the muscles to contract. See link below.

Harvard Health: Myositis

“Myositis sometimes occurs as part of a systemic (whole body) infection, especially a viral infection. It is especially common among people who have the flu (influenza).” I’m struggling to see the far fetched aspect of this hypothesis?

This why you shouldn’t partake in resistance training whilst suffering with a viral infection. Risk of injury goes up. That’s a fact.

Since influenza causes Myositis, it stands to reason that Covid could, as well as other pathogens. Nobody is trying to suggest that covid has some kind of special muscle corroding or dissolving effect, like Pogue is trying to say I’m claiming. It’s simply inflammation.

Covid is far more prevalent than influenza right now (see below as an example, using LA data here as can’t access local data). So people are likely to continue to be exposed. Anecdotally, I know people who’ve had it at least twice already (some 5+), including myself. People are catching it more often than flu at the moment. I’ve had flu once in my 34 years of life, and covid twice in 14 months. But it doesn’t even really matter whether it’s flu or covid, Myositis is entirely possible.



If footballers (men and women) are playing during and/or straight after infection, then they are surely at risk of Myositis? The same goes for tennis players, NFL players, baseball players etc. Which could explain the injuries (not saying it definitely does). Or are you dismissing the potential here?

As for bloated schedules being the reason, tennis has had no such thing and have had no kind of catch up since the pandemic. And WSL only plays 22 games per season compared to our 38. Spurs have a huge injury crisis and have had no European football this season. We also now have five substitutions instead of three which reduces the risk of injury further.

I’m saying it could well be related to Covid, but of course, it may well not be. I’d say the above gives reason to explore this further though, rather than dismiss it completely and assume it’s something else. The thing is, covid is a constant across all sports. More games/bloated schedules/playing catch up isn’t a constant across all sports, as explained above.
Ill start by saying im no medical expert and I haven’t researched anything into this but Just to begin with,
I find it basically unbelievable that you would have had one flu in 34 years :lol: . That cannot be true. Like it just cant. You pretty much spend the first 15-16 years of your life having flu multiple times a year due to how schools/children/flus work. Did you like avoid kids your whole life? Hell even in your adult life whilst you’d be ill a lot less you will catch things unless you literally never leave the house.

In relation to myositisis I see what you’re saying but surely just by the fact it can happen with different kinds of viral infections tells you its inconclusive to put it down to covid. Also surely the severity would also play a part. Like covid itself has very different severity levels.

Also its saying ‘long covid’ impacts body composition and muscle function. How do we know these players have long covid. And why are they not showing any other symptoms of long covid? Surely if its long covid with symptoms of muscle pain it would be a problem consistently and these players should be in continuous muscle pain? The fact the phrase “it is possible” kind of makes me think its all a bit speculative to be honest.
 

Conor

Full Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
5,559
No I’m not talking about 50/50’s a few days before a match day. I’m talking, United saying a player is going to be out for 3 weeks and then they’re out for 6 months type of thing.
I believe you are not really allowed state those things these days.
 

miked99

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
862
Ill start by saying im no medical expert and I haven’t researched anything into this but Just to begin with,
I find it basically unbelievable that you would have had one flu in 34 years :lol: . That cannot be true. Like it just cant. You pretty much spend the first 15-16 years of your life having flu multiple times a year due to how schools/children/flus work. Did you like avoid kids your whole life? Hell even in your adult life whilst you’d be ill a lot less you will catch things unless you literally never leave the house.
I have no opinion on the wider argument going on here, but the bolded part about the flu - seriously? I've had it once in my life, way back in 1982. Even now I remember how terrible it was. I've never felt so ill before or since.

You always get these people who claim they have the flu every time they have a cold :lol: But real flu? The kind that makes you feel like death might be a preferable option? I've genuinely never met anyone who gets that on a regular basis.
 

horsechoker

The Caf's Roy Keane.
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
52,300
Location
The stable
I have no opinion on the wider argument going on here, but the bolded part about the flu - seriously? I've had it once in my life, way back in 1982. Even now I remember how terrible it was. I've never felt so ill before or since.

You always get these people who claim they have the flu every time they have a cold :lol: But real flu? The kind that makes you feel like death might be a preferable option? I've genuinely never met anyone who gets that on a regular basis.
Miked "99"
 

Ludens the Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
17,475
Location
London
I have no opinion on the wider argument going on here, but the bolded part about the flu - seriously? I've had it once in my life, way back in 1982. Even now I remember how terrible it was. I've never felt so ill before or since.

You always get these people who claim they have the flu every time they have a cold :lol: But real flu? The kind that makes you feel like death might be a preferable option? I've genuinely never met anyone who gets that on a regular basis.
Oh ok fair enough, you mean like death bed flu flu :lol: Technicalities…
Well covid is to be fair more like the “cold” isn’t it? So i thought you were saying you’d had that once.
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
34,730
I'm sure the medical staff/training is another one of our shite problems, but the all these teams plays too much football. It's the main reason I am glad we finished 4th in the group. Less games for guys to get run into the ground when ETH 'went for it'. Shaw should have been on a 'low pitch count' for sure. That is a big one on ETH and/or whoever is advising him there.
Yeah honestly think a combo of overplaying these players last season and hard pre season has led to this injury crisis we are suffering
 

Manncunian

Full Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2021
Messages
1,050
Location
Manchester
Ill start by saying im no medical expert and I haven’t researched anything into this but Just to begin with,
I find it basically unbelievable that you would have had one flu in 34 years :lol: . That cannot be true. Like it just cant. You pretty much spend the first 15-16 years of your life having flu multiple times a year due to how schools/children/flus work. Did you like avoid kids your whole life? Hell even in your adult life whilst you’d be ill a lot less you will catch things unless you literally never leave the house.

In relation to myositisis I see what you’re saying but surely just by the fact it can happen with different kinds of viral infections tells you its inconclusive to put it down to covid. Also surely the severity would also play a part. Like covid itself has very different severity levels.

Also its saying ‘long covid’ impacts body composition and muscle function. How do we know these players have long covid. And why are they not showing any other symptoms of long covid? Surely if its long covid with symptoms of muscle pain it would be a problem consistently and these players should be in continuous muscle pain? The fact the phrase “it is possible” kind of makes me think its all a bit speculative to be honest.
I mean to be fair, how many times I’ve personally had flu is of little relevance here and was one sentence out of almost twenty paragraphs :lol:. We’re talking about infections population wide. My personal experience wasn’t supposed to be the takeaway from the discussion on covid and injuries.

But if you do actually want to look up the stats, you’ll find adults tend to average 1-2 flu infections per decade. That’s an average though, so some adults have less than that, so perhaps once in 2-3 decades. Some would have more. I may well have had flu more during childhood but I would have said I had one very pronounced flu like illness when I was in year 8, and the other illnesses I had were just colds/RSV etc. It’s entirely possible that some of what I felt were colds, were indeed flu. I can’t prove it either way unfortunately. But the facts remain, adults average 1-2 per decade.

Statistically speaking, children average one flu infection every two years, again, some more and some less. So your claim of most people getting flu multiple times per year for 15-16 years is statistically improbable. If you spent as much of your childhood as sick as you claim, then you must have had a rotten time. Personally, I was rarely off school, if ever. Same with work. I’ve not had anything but covid (2x) since my last cold in 2016, which I remember because I was on holiday in New York and it was a very mild illness.

But I’m one person out of 8 billion. And I’ve clearly been very lucky compared to you. What either you or I experience on an individual level cannot be extrapolated to population level anyway, so it is a moot point. It doesn’t change the facts on Covid being rife at the moment and people are seemingly being infected more often than previously seen with influenza. If you can provide data demonstrating the contrary, then please feel free and I’ll retract this.

In terms of long covid, how do you know what symptoms individual players may or may not be suffering with? Have you asked them? Long covid is a myriad of symptoms and manifests in very different ways. What it is in one person, can be completely different to what it is in someone else. There isn’t a claim that players have LC anyway, just that there could be a link between infections causing myositis/muscle inflammation.

Footballers are extremely active individuals who are at constant risk of injury anyway. If there is even some slight inflammation in their muscle tissue, the risk of injury is surely increased? Especially in those muscles most frequently injured like the hams, groin and calves.

Different viral infections causing myositis doesn’t mean it can’t be put down to covid when covid is the virus which is most prevalent at the moment. If influenza, or another pathogen, was as prevalent as covid is right now, then the argument could be made that those would be contributing to the injury crisis. But as it stands, the data shows covid as the most established pathogen, which is why it is covid being spoken about in this discussion, and not another virus. For example, if we had the same levels of RSV as we do covid now, along with this injury crisis across many sports, it would be fair to suggest that RSV could be a contributing factor (via myositis etc). Would it not?

All I’m saying is that it is worth exploring and is entirely possible. I can acknowledge that it may well not be the reason. But it seems you and Pogue, amongst others, are saying it is absolutely impossible. But I believe that would be scientifically illiterate to claim this, considering the circumstances and evidence we are faced with.

What I would ask is what is motivating you to be pushing back on this hypothesis to the point where you can’t possibly entertain it? (there is absolutely no claim here that this is 100% the cause by the way). Why are you wanting to be so adamant it can’t possibly be so? That’s the part I don’t understand. Does a discussion around the virus trigger you in some way for some reason (maybe a bad experience of lockdowns)? To counter my argument with a claim as bold as “you spend 15-16 years getting flu multiple times per year” suggests you’re simply arguing for the sake of it. Let’s be honest, a suggestion of 32 flu infections in your first 16 years of life is utterly preposterous.

Regardless of everything discussed, it boils down to me saying that I think there could well be a link between numerous covid infections, myositis and muscular injuries in athletes. Proper research would need to be undertaken, and then a conclusion can be made. But I’m not currently a research scientist, nor do I have the funding available to conduct such a study.

So yes, at the moment, it is speculation, as you say. But every single cause of this injury crisis discussed in this thread is speculation is it not? Until then, I don’t think it’s possible to conclude either way. Yet yourself, Pogue, and others seem to think it is.

Just an edit to add to this: It blows my mind that 3.5 years into a pandemic (with a new virus circulating amongst the global population), that any suggestion it could be related to muscular inflammation/injury during crises in numerous disciplines of sport happening simultaneously is so damned controversial.

Before anyone throws the WHO emergency line at me to claim the pandemic is no more, I’ll quote it for you, “While the international public health emergency may have ended, the pandemic certainly has not”.
 
Last edited:

Red in STL

Turnover not takeover
Joined
Dec 1, 2022
Messages
9,767
Location
In Bed
Supports
The only team that matters
Ill start by saying im no medical expert and I haven’t researched anything into this but Just to begin with,
I find it basically unbelievable that you would have had one flu in 34 years :lol: . That cannot be true. Like it just cant. You pretty much spend the first 15-16 years of your life having flu multiple times a year due to how schools/children/flus work. Did you like avoid kids your whole life? Hell even in your adult life whilst you’d be ill a lot less you will catch things unless you literally never leave the house.

In relation to myositisis I see what you’re saying but surely just by the fact it can happen with different kinds of viral infections tells you its inconclusive to put it down to covid. Also surely the severity would also play a part. Like covid itself has very different severity levels.

Also its saying ‘long covid’ impacts body composition and muscle function. How do we know these players have long covid. And why are they not showing any other symptoms of long covid? Surely if its long covid with symptoms of muscle pain it would be a problem consistently and these players should be in continuous muscle pain? The fact the phrase “it is possible” kind of makes me think its all a bit speculative to be honest.
Most people have never had a proper dose of flu, trust me if you had you would definitely know, I've had it once and I was in my 20's at the time, it took a week in bed, another week to be able to function at a reasonable level and several months to get over it fully
 

Ludens the Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
17,475
Location
London
I mean to be fair, how many times I’ve personally had flu is of little relevance here and was one sentence out of almost twenty paragraphs :lol:. We’re talking about infections population wide. My personal experience wasn’t supposed to be the takeaway from the discussion on covid and injuries.

But if you do actually want to look up the stats, you’ll find adults tend to average 1-2 flu infections per decade. That’s an average though, so some adults have less than that, so perhaps once in 2-3 decades. Some would have more. I may well have had flu more during childhood but I would have said I had one very pronounced flu like illness when I was in year 8, and the other illnesses I had were just colds/RSV etc. It’s entirely possible that some of what I felt were colds, were indeed flu. I can’t prove it either way unfortunately. But the facts remain, adults average 1-2 per decade.

Statistically speaking, children average one flu infection every two years, again, some more and some less. So your claim of most people getting flu multiple times per year for 15-16 years is statistically improbable. If you spent as much of your childhood as sick as you claim, then you must have had a rotten time. Personally, I was rarely off school, if ever. Same with work. I’ve not had anything but covid (2x) since my last cold in 2016, which I remember because I was on holiday in New York and it was a very mild illness.

But I’m one person out of 8 billion. And I’ve clearly been very lucky compared to you. What either you or I experience on an individual level cannot be extrapolated to population level anyway, so it is a moot point. It doesn’t change the facts on Covid being rife at the moment and people are seemingly being infected more often than previously seen with influenza. If you can provide data demonstrating the contrary, then please feel free and I’ll retract this.

In terms of long covid, how do you know what symptoms individual players may or may not be suffering with? Have you asked them? Long covid is a myriad of symptoms and manifests in very different ways. What it is in one person, can be completely different to what it is in someone else. There isn’t a claim that players have LC anyway, just that there could be a link between infections causing myositis/muscle inflammation.

Footballers are extremely active individuals who are at constant risk of injury anyway. If there is even some slight inflammation in their muscle tissue, the risk of injury is surely increased? Especially in those muscles most frequently injured like the hams, groin and calves.

Different viral infections causing myositis doesn’t mean it can’t be put down to covid when covid is the virus which is most prevalent at the moment. If influenza, or another pathogen, was as prevalent as covid is right now, then the argument could be made that those would be contributing to the injury crisis. But as it stands, the data shows covid as the most established pathogen, which is why it is covid being spoken about in this discussion, and not another virus. For example, if we had the same levels of RSV as we do covid now, along with this injury crisis across many sports, it would be fair to suggest that RSV could be a contributing factor (via myositis etc). Would it not?

All I’m saying is that it is worth exploring and is entirely possible. I can acknowledge that it may well not be the reason. But it seems you and Pogue, amongst others, are saying it is absolutely impossible. But I believe that would be scientifically illiterate to claim this, considering the circumstances and evidence we are faced with.

What I would ask is what is motivating you to be pushing back on this hypothesis to the point where you can’t possibly entertain it? (there is absolutely no claim here that this is 100% the cause by the way). Why are you wanting to be so adamant it can’t possibly be so? That’s the part I don’t understand. Does a discussion around the virus trigger you in some way for some reason (maybe a bad experience of lockdowns)? To counter my argument with a claim as bold as “you spend 15-16 years getting flu multiple times per year” suggests you’re simply arguing for the sake of it. Let’s be honest, a suggestion of 32 flu infections in your first 16 years of life is utterly preposterous.

Regardless of everything discussed, it boils down to me saying that I think there could well be a link between numerous covid infections, myositis and muscular injuries in athletes. Proper research would need to be undertaken, and then a conclusion can be made. But I’m not currently a research scientist, nor do I have the funding available to conduct such a study.

So yes, at the moment, it is speculation, as you say. But every single cause of this injury crisis discussed in this thread is speculation is it not? Until then, I don’t think it’s possible to conclude either way. Yet yourself, Pogue, and others seem to think it is.

Just an edit to add to this: It blows my mind that 3.5 years into a pandemic (with a new virus circulating amongst the global population), that any suggestion it could be related to muscular inflammation/injury during crises in numerous disciplines of sport happening simultaneously is so damned controversial.

Before anyone throws the WHO emergency line at me to claim the pandemic is no more, I’ll quote it for you, “While the international public health emergency may have ended, the pandemic certainly has not”.
Gotta be honest, you’re barking up the wrong tree with all that spiel.
For starters Id already clarified the error on my part of stating the ‘Cold’ was the ‘flu’ . I meant the cold is what you have regularly in your lifetime. My mistake.
Secondly I most definitely am not so adamant in denying it nor am I being triggered by covid lockdown ffs :lol:
I know very little on the subject but on a very basic level of understanding I thinks it’s far fetched. And I don’t feel as if what you’ve presented is convincing enough. There are people in here like you mentioned @Pogue Mahone who will have a greater understanding on all of this than me and can argue the case a lot better but I assure you I was not chest beating in denial and I am not triggered by covid.
 

kerrygold

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
Messages
68
Supports
united
A more organised club would perhaps have set something in place to find a long term replacement anticipating his inevitable decline, and phase him out, I like Shaw but his position requires elite levels of athleticism and we need consistent starters, as we are currently witnessing a defence with a revolving door of players equals carnage. Maybe Malacia was intended to replace Shaw but his injuries and brief appearances suggest he's not stepping up anytime soon.
So true.
Multi faith. Are they using various religious figures to pray for quick recoveries and for no more injuries happen?
Shamans on the way.