No I understand the thread ,its the other part like you mention that you have seen things from his side ? what have you seen ?
Is anybody backtracking?
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Anyone who wanted Moyes to be sacked is not going to backtrack on wanting him out after he has actually been sacked. That's my view on him. I'm glad he has gone.
However, I do think the leaking of the sacking by the club to the press would not have happened under Fergie and Gill and that does not reflect well on the club at all. That was just unprofessional and if I was the Glazers I would want to find out how that happened as there is no way I think the club hierarchy wanted that to happen.
I also think some of the things the players have been doing behind the scenes cannot be allowed to continue under the new manager and that's a very separate issue to wanting Moyes not to be United manager anymore.
However, I do think the leaking of the sacking by the club to the press would not have happened under Fergie and Gill and that does not reflect well on the club at all. That was just unprofessional and if I was the Glazers I would want to find out how that happened as there is no way I think the club hierarchy wanted that to happen.
I also think some of the things the players have been doing behind the scenes cannot be allowed to continue under the new manager and that's a very separate issue to wanting Moyes not to be United manager anymore.
Ok. Well no, I'm' glad he's gone. If some of the players acted unprofessionally and disrespectfully towards him that's an unfortunate state of affairs I agree, but still an indictment of his time as the manager, sadly. People are being very quick to believe all these rumours too fwiw, none of which we know for sure, but if any of them are it seems Giggs was a fairly major ring leader. Should Giggs be one of these disgusting players kicked out to preserve the legacy of the great David Moyes? Welbeck too? Surely these players know United more than Moyes, and acted in such a way because DM "doesn't listen"? We don't know things from their side either. We don't even officially know if he was informed before Tuesday or not.
We know feck all really apart from the fact that under David Moyes Manchester United were pretty damn awful.
i agree with you. we only know half truths but certainly something is fundamentally wrong. its a sad state to be in. probably for another thread but the one thing i find undeniable is that many players werent fit to play for united this season. the manager is to blame for a lot of problems, but the basics that went out the window with many should be enough to see them out the door. chiefly, ferdinand, cleverley, vidic and arguably hernandez should go.
Players owe nothing to the club. Likewise the club owes nothing to the players. Clubs can and do release or cut loose players when those players are deemed surplus to requirement or not good enough. Cooperation is primarily due to mutual benefit. The club needs good players, and the players need the club to perform well to maintain job security and broaden their own horizons.
Loyalty to a club will only ever go so far in most cases, and that is fine. That is the way it should be. They are footballers and they only have so much time to accomplish whatever it is they hope to accomplish. This is exactly why I don't begrudge Rooney over his "disloyalty". Sir Alex was famous (or maybe infamous
) for tossing players to the curb the moment they no longer fit in his short term OR long term plan. Loyalty? It's admirable in those who will place loyalty above all else in this enterprise, but you can hardly hold it against someone in that situation for looking to take action in their best interest. Ultimately for loyalty to really mean anything it has to be a two-way street. Professional sports are not a two-way street. Clubs take until they can't take more and then toss the player aside (again generally speaking). Why should players nail themselves to a cross for a club that in all likelihood has almost zero loyalty to them and would dump them in an instant if they thought they could replace them with a better or more economical player.
Remember, mutual benefit is the glue which tends to bind this together. If it's good for the players and they want it, then it is probably also good for the club. I think most of us can agree that however this went down, it had to go down and while Moyes is surely a nice guy and all that, he wasn't the right guy for this job.
Loyalty to a club will only ever go so far in most cases, and that is fine. That is the way it should be. They are footballers and they only have so much time to accomplish whatever it is they hope to accomplish. This is exactly why I don't begrudge Rooney over his "disloyalty". Sir Alex was famous (or maybe infamous
) for tossing players to the curb the moment they no longer fit in his short term OR long term plan. Loyalty? It's admirable in those who will place loyalty above all else in this enterprise, but you can hardly hold it against someone in that situation for looking to take action in their best interest. Ultimately for loyalty to really mean anything it has to be a two-way street. Professional sports are not a two-way street. Clubs take until they can't take more and then toss the player aside (again generally speaking). Why should players nail themselves to a cross for a club that in all likelihood has almost zero loyalty to them and would dump them in an instant if they thought they could replace them with a better or more economical player.Remember, mutual benefit is the glue which tends to bind this together. If it's good for the players and they want it, then it is probably also good for the club. I think most of us can agree that however this went down, it had to go down and while Moyes is surely a nice guy and all that, he wasn't the right guy for this job.
I was one of the few on here that was vocally against him being signed in the first place and was staggered by the clubs decision. Didn't rate him as a manager at Everton and thought he'd be awful with us. I really have no idea what the club were thinking last summer, it was never going to work with Moyes. Having said that...
I think the way he was sacked was a disgrace really. It was inevitable it was going to happen, but the way it did happen was terrible.
Don't kid yourselves though, Moyes talking about rebuilding the entire squad is way OTT. I share the opinion of Sir Alex last summer and claim that the squad has a good balance of youth and experience, what we need is a few key personal in specific positions being added to the squad and a few players removed from the squad. Not the major rebuild that Moyes was/is claiming.
I think the way he was sacked was a disgrace really. It was inevitable it was going to happen, but the way it did happen was terrible.
Don't kid yourselves though, Moyes talking about rebuilding the entire squad is way OTT. I share the opinion of Sir Alex last summer and claim that the squad has a good balance of youth and experience, what we need is a few key personal in specific positions being added to the squad and a few players removed from the squad. Not the major rebuild that Moyes was/is claiming.
Yeah, Moyes needed to go but I do regret the way it was done.
Still, at least its over now and we can move on.
Still, at least its over now and we can move on.
Players having an issue with manager happens at most stable of clubs.. No footballer is happy being mismanaged.
A manager should be in control of his dressing room or else just make way for an able guy to take charge..
We are all looking for an excuse to turn on the lesser or fringe players, are we forgetting the giggs fallout rumours. The fact he has the ability to turn us against our very own player made him the wrong guy in the first place...
The guy is gone now, we should just concentrate on dusting ourselves up and move forward.
A manager should be in control of his dressing room or else just make way for an able guy to take charge..
We are all looking for an excuse to turn on the lesser or fringe players, are we forgetting the giggs fallout rumours. The fact he has the ability to turn us against our very own player made him the wrong guy in the first place...
The guy is gone now, we should just concentrate on dusting ourselves up and move forward.
The players had a bet on him getting the boot..
I didn't want him from the start.
It was clear right from the very start that he wasn't the right man and should of gone before Christmas.
The board have made 100% the correct decision, he was a complete disaster.
It was clear right from the very start that he wasn't the right man and should of gone before Christmas.
The board have made 100% the correct decision, he was a complete disaster.
Nope, my honest opinion pre season was that we would never win a league with moyes... I did however think he would get top 4! I gave him that much (how stupid was I?)....... I didn't think it would be this bad! I mentioned on another thread there we're signs from the get go however and the match that I decided it was never going to work out from was the 1-0 loss to Everton! Losing at home to his former team was the beginning of the end for him!!
It was the right choice, he could of been there 26 years like Fergie and never won a single title I feel!!
It was the right choice, he could of been there 26 years like Fergie and never won a single title I feel!!
Not sure what point you're trying to make here.
I'm just saying it as I saw it, being a regular reader of several United forums and social media in general. Quite a few posters were downright hostile towards Moyes, and seemed to take great pleasure in personalizing the criticism of him. Plenty said they would openly celebrate if he was sacked. But then once he'd gone, it was all 'Well I do feel a bit sorry for him actually, and the club have gone about this in the wrong way, and he's a decent guy . . . '.
I thought that kind of about turn - abusing him for 8 months solid, then all of a sudden acting contrite when the thing they wanted to happen did happen - was probably just the result of a guilty conscience. From the realisation that a man losing his job in such a fashion isn't actually all shits and giggles.
As for those of us who 'lost' the argument . . . I certainly don't feel i've 'lost' anything. My position was that Moyes had underperformed this season, could have no complaints if he was sacked, but that i'd give him a bit more time to try and turn things around (say, up until Christmas next season). The club have obviously decided that he isn't going to get that time, so fair enough, we move on.
But I don't think the position I had was a particularly indefensible one.
As for the hate campaign bit: there is blatantly a faction within the support who seem to always need a whipping boy. It used to be Carrick, then it was Cleverley, then it was Young. Darron Gibson was once forced off Twitter, such was the abuse United fans gave him for having the temerity to be not-quite-Utd class.
Those people will have had their ire turned on Moyes lately - justifiably so, you might say, at least in some ways - but now he's gone, they almost certainly will start on someone else.
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I'm quite the opposite of backtracking, as I look back I can't actually believe what we were thinking hiring him. We all rather awkwardly got behind him at the time but it was doomed to failure from day one, if we had given him anymore time it was looking more and more likely he would have taken us further and further backwards. Best decision for all concerned as Moyes can now move on with the excuse he didn't get time and gets to salvage his career and we can finally realise that we need to speculate to accumulate on the very best in the game.
I always regret correct decisions far better to turn into oncoming traffic than avoid it. Ludicrous OP.
I somehow doubt the players sabotaged him to win the bet, bookies have very low limits for these type of bets and that's the main reason why you see odds fluctuate so much so often.
Under that reasoning, we should only hire a manager from within United, since that will be the only way to find one who knows United better than Giggs or Welbeck
There's a myriad of different reasoning. The main one is simply finding one who gets the players playing to their full potential.
I think they were/are just asking for someone who's more competent. Lack of authority could be another issue for them. If he never gained their respect, which is likely especially following Ferguson, he never had a good chance of succeeding with them.
Bookies don't take bets like that coz they are called a warm source.. Even when taking them from individuals like that they'll have betting limits..
The reference was to a rumour going around that 3 players had a wager going on how long he was gonna be in the job.
Still not a reason to not play your best.
Are we sure the club intended that to happen? I find the claim they leaked it on purpose strange. Why would they?
Well I certainly can't think of a reason. United held all the cards. But this was way more than just a leak, it was a tonne of journos at once and the story kept evolving during the day.
I do agree with you, the players rebelled and helped force Moyes out the door.
On the other hand, I have zero sympathy for Moyes. The weak are exposed and pushed out of the pack. Moyes was not an alpha male to lead this group and this became obvious so he was ostracized for it. Lord of the Flies style. This is not charity, it's not a schoolyard game, it's a harsh business based on results with big money rewards. He failed as a leader and quite rightly lost his job for it.
I somehow doubt any of our players are stupid enough to place that bet in their own name.
Bookie: So Ryan, what would you like to bet on today?
Giggsy: What price are you offering on Moyesie to get sacked before the end of the season?
[QUOTE="Ole'sbodyguard, post: 15547005, member: 24982"However, I do think the leaking of the sacking by the club to the press would not have happened under Fergie and Gill and that does not reflect well on the club at all. That was just unprofessional and if I was the Glazers I would want to find out how that happened as there is no way I think the club hierarchy wanted that to happen.[/QUOTE]
You are right about that, but it's part of more leaks - or should I say briefs - made by someone at the club this season. The Fabregas bid, the 'Moyes was left with a crippled scouting team, he's added Ipads' etc stories. I don't know why anyone thought we should tell the papers Moyes if off a day ahead of it being announced. If it was part of some plan or just wanting to become buddies with the press.
You are right about that, but it's part of more leaks - or should I say briefs - made by someone at the club this season. The Fabregas bid, the 'Moyes was left with a crippled scouting team, he's added Ipads' etc stories. I don't know why anyone thought we should tell the papers Moyes if off a day ahead of it being announced. If it was part of some plan or just wanting to become buddies with the press.
Not on purpose. But subconscious is a bitch. Add to it some things we've been hearing about our training sessions, etc, and it's not a surprise players struggled to play well.
Getting rid of Moyes was the right decision. I just hope that the club realises there are weaknesses in the overall squad depth and that they dont just blame Moyes and ignore the flaws in the overall squad.
We won 4 nil at Newcastle and then he made 6 changes for Everton and it was possibly the worst United performance I've ever seen. He had to go, no other choice.
This reflects pretty much where I stand too. Interestingly, posters who have been around a long time but don't necessarily post much have tended toward this more long term perspective, and this opinion is possibly more prevalent among a "silent majority" than would first appear.
So right or wrong to sack him with hindsight in mind ...is basically the question being asked?
Ok I'll bite.
If one of Mourinho, Guardiola, Ancelotti etc for some reason got inexplicably sacked tommorrow, do you think any of them would become favourites for the Newcastle job?Not a chance!
Why? Because they're (with all due respest to the Geordies) miles to good to be managing Newcastle. If they were available top clubs would be clamouring for their signatures.
So...
Are there any Top European clubs Moyes is being linked to. No. Why? Simple. He's not at that level. Almost every bad thing that's happened to us this year he has played the role of common denominator.
Performances=Tactics, team selection & player motivation.
Transfers= unrealistic persuits, 65m on essentially 2 no:10s.
Injuries = Moyes dinosaur like training regime could very well the thing thats driven players into physical breakdowns. Look back at the injuries weve had that have come from training. Even this morning Eric Harrison (who still maintains close contact with Giggs)said that the players will be flying (happy) in training now that Giggsy has taken over...albeit short term. Eric was strongly implying that the Utd players was not a very happy at all under Moyes training.
Results= You don't even need me to answer this.
Simple reality is Moyes struggled badly to get results and was sacked. That's football...and it's been that way for decades. It's not going to change now.
BTW know what next job is he favourite to get? Yep Newcastle. Not a Milan nor Barca in sight. Sir Alex WAS a special manager, Mourinho IS a special manager, Guardiola IS a special manager, Ancelotti IS a special manager. Moyes is NOT. If available and in their pomp. Which 4 out of 5 would be potentially linked with those positions? Exactly.
Says it all for me...
So my conclusive answer to the question IS = Nope. We we're 100% right to sack him. He failed.
Ok I'll bite.
If one of Mourinho, Guardiola, Ancelotti etc for some reason got inexplicably sacked tommorrow, do you think any of them would become favourites for the Newcastle job?Not a chance!
Why? Because they're (with all due respest to the Geordies) miles to good to be managing Newcastle. If they were available top clubs would be clamouring for their signatures.
So...
Are there any Top European clubs Moyes is being linked to. No. Why? Simple. He's not at that level. Almost every bad thing that's happened to us this year he has played the role of common denominator.
Performances=Tactics, team selection & player motivation.
Transfers= unrealistic persuits, 65m on essentially 2 no:10s.
Injuries = Moyes dinosaur like training regime could very well the thing thats driven players into physical breakdowns. Look back at the injuries weve had that have come from training. Even this morning Eric Harrison (who still maintains close contact with Giggs)said that the players will be flying (happy) in training now that Giggsy has taken over...albeit short term. Eric was strongly implying that the Utd players was not a very happy at all under Moyes training.
Results= You don't even need me to answer this.
Simple reality is Moyes struggled badly to get results and was sacked. That's football...and it's been that way for decades. It's not going to change now.
BTW know what next job is he favourite to get? Yep Newcastle. Not a Milan nor Barca in sight. Sir Alex WAS a special manager, Mourinho IS a special manager, Guardiola IS a special manager, Ancelotti IS a special manager. Moyes is NOT. If available and in their pomp. Which 4 out of 5 would be potentially linked with those positions? Exactly.
Says it all for me...
So my conclusive answer to the question IS = Nope. We we're 100% right to sack him. He failed.
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HELL NO !!!
I am still celebrating.
If anything, I dislike him even more.Whining about the way he was dismissed and running to the LMA. Imagine had he been Real Madrid's manager, what would he have been accusing Florentino Perez? lol.
I am still celebrating.
If anything, I dislike him even more.Whining about the way he was dismissed and running to the LMA. Imagine had he been Real Madrid's manager, what would he have been accusing Florentino Perez? lol.
Backtracking? not at all. I was not totally against his appointment at the time, there were better options out there, but accepted his appointment. I started to have my doubts during pre-season, it got worse at the end of the transfer window, by end of October i wanted him out.
As far as scouting is concerned, he scouted Fellaini for over 5 years at Everton. What need did he feel that Fellaini would have fulfilled at United? That says all about Moyes that i needed to see.
As far as scouting is concerned, he scouted Fellaini for over 5 years at Everton. What need did he feel that Fellaini would have fulfilled at United? That says all about Moyes that i needed to see.
Here's what I don't get about this thread: What have we heard since Moyes was sacked to make us think it wasn't the right decision?
I mean I've heard plenty to make me feel sorry for him and plenty to make me doubt the character of some of our players but I haven't heard anything that would make me think he was anywhere near turning things around.
If anything things were worse than I thought. The squad he would have been working with next year would mostly have consisted of this same squad which was apparently underwhelmed by Moyes' methods from the get go. How would that have changed?
I mean I've heard plenty to make me feel sorry for him and plenty to make me doubt the character of some of our players but I haven't heard anything that would make me think he was anywhere near turning things around.
If anything things were worse than I thought. The squad he would have been working with next year would mostly have consisted of this same squad which was apparently underwhelmed by Moyes' methods from the get go. How would that have changed?
I supported the decision to hire Moyes and still hoped he would be given until Xmas. The one thing I strongly disagreed with was the decision to replace the existing coaching staff. I know it's common practise but this was a rare example of an exceptionally successful manager being replaced and it would have made Moyes' transition a lot easier if he had retained staff who had the confidence of the players.
Although Moyes underachieved, I will always maintain that he should have been given another year at United.
The next manager who comes in will no doubt be able to sign a number of players. Moyes didn't have that luxury. However, like I said before, he still should've done better with the current squad.
The next manager who comes in will no doubt be able to sign a number of players. Moyes didn't have that luxury. However, like I said before, he still should've done better with the current squad.
Why would you give an extra year to someone that lost had the dressing room?
It's crazy.
He'd basically have had to sign a new squad as half of the current one apparently thought he was useless, including our current manager. No amount of signings would've made his coaching methods any better.
Define luxury, because he had two full transfer windows to sign players.
Come to think of it, I think he actually signed a couple during those as well.
Did he lose the dressing room, though? Like Gary Neville said, it was only a couple weeks ago the players were running their socks off against Bayern and think it would be the same had we had them tomorrow with Moyes in charge.
Maybe there were a few players who didn't see eye to eye with Moyes, but I suspect that would have changed if he were to get signings in the Summer and results got better. I mean, that can be the only reason as to why he supposedly lost the dressing room. That said, at the end of the day he was the manager, so the players shouldn't really have a say and should do what they're paid to do.