Is anybody backtracking?
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Moyes went with Felllaini because he failed with more or less everyone else. Was never his first choice and wanted a ball player like Cesc, hence the numerous bids.
Mata, although a top player, in my opinion, was a signing to show we can compete in the transfer market, due to the Summer being such a sham.
According to reports players started having doubts within the first few weeks as they didn't think his training methods were right for a club like Manchester United, again with Giggs sharing the opinion. Apparently there was very little focus on attacking play, ball control or anything like that, Moyes was more concerned with fitness and positioning.
If Moyes wanted to convince the squad to perform he'd basically have had to change his whole approach. Plus even if he did that he had already lost their respect, something that's very difficult to win back.
I have sympathy towards Moyes. He tried his best. Worked hard. I am very sure he had a clear plan for next season and beyond. I read somewhere that that is his style at Everton. In my opinion, he should at least be given the whole summer to buy players that he wanted, that he had scouted and probably have agreed to join.
I was very much prepared to be patient until middle of next season. At least until November. I was also willing to defend his 'defensive' style of playing. In my opinion, that is not the real problem. Mourinho played defensive football for donkey years but yes, he was successful unlike Moyes. And Fergie's teams didnt play that wonderfully the last few years as well. Neither did Mancini at City.
But I do understand the sacking. I also think that he had lost the dressing room and obviously when that happened it will not end well eventually, for any manager, in any club.
I wish him good luck in his next job. I desperately want to see him having huge successes wherever he goes (unless when he's playing his teams against us that is).
I was very much prepared to be patient until middle of next season. At least until November. I was also willing to defend his 'defensive' style of playing. In my opinion, that is not the real problem. Mourinho played defensive football for donkey years but yes, he was successful unlike Moyes. And Fergie's teams didnt play that wonderfully the last few years as well. Neither did Mancini at City.
But I do understand the sacking. I also think that he had lost the dressing room and obviously when that happened it will not end well eventually, for any manager, in any club.
I wish him good luck in his next job. I desperately want to see him having huge successes wherever he goes (unless when he's playing his teams against us that is).
Its so easy to say managers lose the dressing room when results aren't going well. Same was said about AVB and plenty of other managers out there.
Of course he had.
Well it was said about AVB...because he had lost the dressing room. It's not an analysis based on the results, it's based on what we've been hearing about the players for the majority of the season. Turning up for the biggest match of the season in the Bayern tie is not evidence against this.
So much compassion for Moyes in here. I guess you guys are better human beings than I am. I feel no sympathy for him at all.
He should be the one apologizing to us.
He should be the one apologizing to us.
Not that I'm unhappy to see Moyes go as the football has been dire, but I was all for giving him more time to settle in and at least the summer transfer window and up until Christmas to show that we were capable of moving forward under him. I do feel genuinely sorry for him as much of his undoing has come from within our dressing room and I would not envy the next manager to step into the job.
Moyes arrived in very strange and tricky circumstances, he had the biggest shoes in football to fill which should have made him uneasy but he also had a squad who were champions and had done everything for their previous manager which in theory should have made his job easier. That they set about undermining him from very early in his tenure is, IMO, unforgivable and I am beginning to wonder how hard the axe will be swung by whoever takes over this summer.
The new arrival, unlike Moyes, will be forced to remember the words of George Graham on starting as manager at a new club "when you walk in the dressing room for the 1st time,these are the bastards who cost the last guy his job". If I were walking into that job tomorrow there's a very, very short list of players who I would not be looking at with a great degree of mistrust:
De Gea and Lindegard have done everything asked of them all season. Januzaj stood out as one of the few good things to have happened all year. Smalling, Jones, Evans, Buttner and Rafael have got on with being chopped and changed all season and tried to fill in for more senior players who had gone walkabout or quit the club whilst still taking the paycheck and wearing the armband. Fletcher has done well to break back into the team and gave 100% every time he was called on while Mata and Fellaini must have been more shocked than Moyes at the circus they'd joined even if some of Fellaini's performances and haircut suggest he'd be better suited to a circus. For his longevity, for what he means to the club and for the simple fact that not relying more on his experience and winning him over early probably cost Moyes more dearly than even the results, I'd be treating Giggs like a trusted deputy and listening to his every word, but I'd also not be turning my back on the bastard any time soon.
Every other one of the overpaid, preening, under-performing, twittering primadonnas at the club would be potentially heading for the door unless they could prove to me immediately that they were willing to give me 110% and that they would fight for their positions. The new manager might have a far less enviable task than the one Moyes took on 10 months ago but the players should be shitting themselves because if the new manager is good enough for the job then many of them will be called on to pay for their treachery this season.
Moyes arrived in very strange and tricky circumstances, he had the biggest shoes in football to fill which should have made him uneasy but he also had a squad who were champions and had done everything for their previous manager which in theory should have made his job easier. That they set about undermining him from very early in his tenure is, IMO, unforgivable and I am beginning to wonder how hard the axe will be swung by whoever takes over this summer.
The new arrival, unlike Moyes, will be forced to remember the words of George Graham on starting as manager at a new club "when you walk in the dressing room for the 1st time,these are the bastards who cost the last guy his job". If I were walking into that job tomorrow there's a very, very short list of players who I would not be looking at with a great degree of mistrust:
De Gea and Lindegard have done everything asked of them all season. Januzaj stood out as one of the few good things to have happened all year. Smalling, Jones, Evans, Buttner and Rafael have got on with being chopped and changed all season and tried to fill in for more senior players who had gone walkabout or quit the club whilst still taking the paycheck and wearing the armband. Fletcher has done well to break back into the team and gave 100% every time he was called on while Mata and Fellaini must have been more shocked than Moyes at the circus they'd joined even if some of Fellaini's performances and haircut suggest he'd be better suited to a circus. For his longevity, for what he means to the club and for the simple fact that not relying more on his experience and winning him over early probably cost Moyes more dearly than even the results, I'd be treating Giggs like a trusted deputy and listening to his every word, but I'd also not be turning my back on the bastard any time soon.
Every other one of the overpaid, preening, under-performing, twittering primadonnas at the club would be potentially heading for the door unless they could prove to me immediately that they were willing to give me 110% and that they would fight for their positions. The new manager might have a far less enviable task than the one Moyes took on 10 months ago but the players should be shitting themselves because if the new manager is good enough for the job then many of them will be called on to pay for their treachery this season.
Well if that is the case, to me it's absurd. The players have to remember they're the employees, therefore, they must do what they're told, even if they don't agree.
In regards to fitness and positioning, maybe Moyes wanted to get them fit first to apply the high pressing game we see from the likes of Barca, Bayern, Dortmund, etc. We all saw how well drilled he had the players at Everton.
To me, fitness is the foundation, and without it, teams struggle. That's not to say that fitness is the be all and end all, because maybe Moyes should have done more technical work, however, as the manager, he took over knowing he could do things his way.
I bet if Mourinho come in - a manager who very much likes his hard working players and organisation the players wouldn't have moaned. Unfortunately, because results weren't going the right way, the players have said to be moaning about the training methods.
The guy was a loser. He wouldn't be respected in any big club's dressing room. NONE.
Bayern, Barca, Real Madrid etc would have made his life a living hell. Stop blaming our players for this guy's incompetence.
Do you think he meant to be as unsuccessful as he was?
Rumours, which didn't help.
Fair play to you for keeping that level of faith in him after this season to the point you could have watched a united team under him for another year, but with it now coming out just how bad his relationship with the squad was giving him another year would have been disastrous.
How did he not have that luxury though?
He had 2 transfer windows and spent more than any United manager in history breaking our transfer record in the process, he had the opportunity and financial backing to sign players.
A lot of managers won't have the luxury of having one transfer window or the money to buy many players even if they did get one, he should have been able to get more out of the players he had and the 2 he signed.
I think he couldn't help it. He got upset/frustrated about it, and thought throwing the squad under the bus was the way to go. He never understood what it meant to be United, he didn't have the mindset or the attitude. The guy knew he was in over his head from the beginning. The players were not going to have any of it.
You don't get leaks from a happy dressing room.
Where am I blaming our players for Moyes' failings?
I'm saying that any new manager would do very well to look very carefully at the treacherous bunch of bastards who sank the previous manager. They're players and the fact that many of them have clearly stopped playing this season would have me questioning why we were still paying them.
Regardless what your personal opinion is about the value, or lack there of, of the players he signed during the windows available to him, the point still stands that it's a fairly slippery slope to stand on when you hold out the hope of the coming summer transfer window as being Moyes salvation and road to redemption. Even more when by your own admission he signed one player as a parting gift to a failed summer, and the other as the trophy wife signing of the winter.
It's my opinion that you could put Moyes in charge of any top class club and the results would be pretty much the same as what turned out here. Moyes' strengths lie in his ability to manage mid-level, under-funded clubs. To make those clubs "tough to beat", and to keep them in the league year after year. He wasn't groomed to run a world class club and to take the fight to his opponents. His failure here has much more to do with his ability to adapt to that ethos, than it does a with a mutiny of this squad.
Winners like to hang around other winners. Successful people like to be around other successful people, that is just the way it is.
That is not blaming?
And those "treacherous bunch of bastards" have given us joy over the years. They have won trophies for us. You should be a little more grateful to them instead of insulting them in favor of a loser who had no business managing us. Moyes is not a nice guy.
That is not blaming?
And those "treacherous bunch of bastards" have given us joy over the years. They have won trophies for us. You should be a little more grateful to them instead of insulting them in favor of a loser who had no business managing us. Moyes is not a nice guy.
And one of those "treacherous bastards" is now our manager.
Agree with that 100%.
Maybe I was wrong to say he didn't have the luxury, but I don't think he really wanted the two players he bought in, in Mata and Fellaini, although the former is a top player.
It was well documented that we were after Fabregas all Summer, which clearly meant Moyes wanted a ball player - a player who could dictate the game for us like Scholes did. Unfortunately we didn't get Cesc but still had a chance to sign Herrera, another ball player, for 32M, but somehow that fell through. This meant Moyes panicked and bought Fellaini - a complete comparison of a player to Cesc and Herrera which was quite baffling to say the least.
All the talk since Scholes left was that we had to replace him. Moyes obviously identified this but was unable to get his preferred targets.
As for the spending more money than any United manager in history, I should think so too lol. Times change and players are more expensive than they used to be.
I agree on your last point, he should have definitely got more out of his players, especially as we were champions last season. I don't think changing the starting XI every week did him any favours.
No backtracking here. It's not uncommon to feel sympathy for a manager who has lost his job. Chelsea fans felt sorry for Ranieri when he was replaced by Mourinho, Liverpool fans felt sorry for Dalglish when he was replaced by Rodgers. Empathising because his sacking has been mishandled does not mean that the decision to dismiss Moyes was the wrong one.
It is the manager's job to keep the players in line and on board with his project. Moyes had apparently lost the dressing room. Some of the players may have acted inappropriately, but they clearly felt he was out of his depth and was unable to recover the situation. It's a similar situation to the banner being flown over Old Trafford by a few malcontented fans. Their methods may be inappropriate, but their message was correct - he had to go.
It is the manager's job to keep the players in line and on board with his project. Moyes had apparently lost the dressing room. Some of the players may have acted inappropriately, but they clearly felt he was out of his depth and was unable to recover the situation. It's a similar situation to the banner being flown over Old Trafford by a few malcontented fans. Their methods may be inappropriate, but their message was correct - he had to go.
Yeah, regardless how likable a chap David comes across as, Giggs > Moyes, any day of the week.
I don't care who's the more likable of the two. One of them is a proven winner beyond the shadow of a doubt. The other, not so much.
Someone like Rio has my full respect and has undoubtedly been a great player for us. If I was the new manager coming in I'd ship him out straight away though. Sometimes you need to be ruthless and this is one of those situations. In fact, that lack of ruthlessness is one of the things that made Moyes so bad.
There are a lot of powerful figures in our dressing room and backroom. A new manager will have to either win them over or ship them out, otherwise he runs the risk of being undermined.
I think it's very interesting that our two prime candidates would go about things in very different way. Ancelotti is a master at getting the dressing room behind him and would probably keep the likes of Giggs on board too, whereas Van Gaal will lay down the law and stamp his authority all over the place. Either way, they're not gonna suffer the same way Moyes did.
It is not blaming them for Moyes' failings, it is also not absolving them of the fact that they shirked their duty and produced one of the most miserable seasons of football we've ever played. If they were winners, surely they'd have got behind Moyes and raised him to their standards to carry on winning, their lack of perfomrances to prove otherwise this season make me, and should make any new manager seriously question how many of them are actually winners or do have the United mentality.
I accept that many of those same players have brought me joy in the past, but just as the actions of Charlton, Law and Best in undermining their "friend" Wilf McGuinness sullied their image slightly for me, this season's debacle leaves me less than enamoured with a number of our senior players who I had previously not questioned.
I don't agree. I don't think you can judge a manager over the course of a year and say he could never manage at a big club again. He could join a big club tomorrow and do very well, in my opinion. Plus it was always going to be tough to take over SAF.
We were trying to sign him all summer, via the bizarre medium of a joint bid for him and Baines. That Moyes apparently vetoed signing Thiago (or at best, delayed until it was too late) is fairly damning.
I am pretty sure Ryan Gigg is quite aware. He was one them.
You are comparing 2 winners to a loser. Of course none of this would have happened had Ancelotti and Van Gaal been managers. Nobody would have had to be shipped out. They would have played good football.
Winning titles as a player is completely different to a manager. That said, I hope Giggsy does well in our last four games.
Moyes would fail at any big club. His methods/attitude would not fly in that environment.
Well it must of meant Moyes was in for two sorts of players; a defensive midfielder (Fellaini) and a ball player (Fabregas, Herrera).
We were never in for Thiago.
In this case, I'm extremely comfortable saying that you can make a judgement call as to whether or not Moyes was going to come good. The answer was glaringly no. You don't have to take my word for it, ask the board of directors.
Yes, it was always going to be a tough go of it following SAF, and, had there been even an inkling of some sort of plan, or direction, or anything positive to take from our results this year, I'd be of the same exact opinion as you, my friend. Unfortunate as it is, however, that didn't and wasn't happening.
It isn't just about playing pretty football, it's about demanding and commanding respect. That's why the likes VG, Carlo and SAF are winners, because they're ruthless bastards who will handle whatever the players throw at them.
It wouldn't have happened if VG or Carlo had been appointed because they'd do exactly what Bury Red suggested: suss out the treacherous bastards and deal with them. That's part of what makes a winner a winner.
But you get the newspapers putting two and two together and coming up with five because results aren't going so well.
Debatable that we were even in for Thiago but lets pretend for a minute we were, this happened when he had just walked in to the club and still needed time to assess the squad and give them a chance to impress. Also that 1st transfer window was a huge mess, New executive, new manager and it was all right when there was a preseason tour under way. i still think slagging Moyes off with respect to that transfer window shows a complete lack of understanding of how much of a hinderance all the peripheral issues would have been. He walked in to a hospital pass with respect to the 1st transfer window.
How do you know he tried his best? and so sure he has clear plan for next season?
Why do you desperately want to see him having huge success in other team?
Are you related to Moyes?
They wouldn't have had to deal with anything because they would have had the players respect from day 1.
They wouldn't be doing stupid shite like reading self help books in front of the lads( just an example).
If he didn't want the 2 players we brought in (i some what agree) then he was doomed from the start, as he wasn't strong enough it seems i doubt Ferguson would sign a player he didn't want. No doubt he wanted a fabregas or similar but personally i thought he approached last summer way too relaxed, this wasn't everton where he could wait until the last few days of the window to pick up a bargain. He should have been in working with woodword on targets and transfers the day after evertons last game to ensure we got bids in early and signed players up before pre season and to maximize the time available in the summer window.
Then in january he should have made some signings, we could have made a push for the top 4 and who knows he may have still been in a job as we speak, but it was all too indecisive i don't think he appreciated he could actually get sacked especially in january, i think he put too much faith in that 6 year contract the fact it had clauses should have let him know it was a PR tool.
Well yeah fair point, i wrote in history for effect what i really meant was he spent more than SAF ever did in a season. I think the most Ferguson spent was £50m, Moyes spent £65m i won't count Zaha since dave didn't like the lad for some reason.
Moyes dropped and fined Welbeck, Cleverley and Young the other day for going out and getting drunk, then got questioned as to why he didn't play Welbeck against Everton.
The man can't win. I'm sure he dropped Young after diving too. He certainly give him a warning anyway.
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Why are people still defending this man? They still have blind faith even after being sacked lol.