Is anybody backtracking?

[Hernandez - BFA]

Sacking Moyes was the right decision, but I'm seriously not happy with the way it was done. The general professionalism of our club is shocking and for the news to leak 18 hours beforehand that Moyes was to get sacked was diabolical. Moyes didn't deserve that what so ever, no manager does.

Not backtracking because as I said, it had to be done. It's just unfortunate it was quite a bitter-sweet taste as I'd prefer if we let him go with class.

 

[gasmanc]

Am I hearing it correct that Saint Moyes has accused the players of playing badly on purpose to get him sacked ?
Isn't that technically throwing games ?
Hell of an accusation if true.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sacking Moyes was the right decision, but I'm seriously not happy with the way it was done. The general professionalism of our club is shocking and for the news to leak 18 hours beforehand that Moyes was to get sacked was diabolical. Moyes didn't deserve that what so ever, no manager does.

Not backtracking because as I said, it had to be done. It's just unfortunate it was quite a bitter-sweet taste as I'd prefer if we let him go with class.

I've read this a lot in the last day or two but really can't get worked up about what happened.

Ultimately, the only person negatively affected is David Moyes. In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter exactly how and when you find out about losing your job? Surely he'll be so gutted about being sacked that the leak to the press a day in advance is neither here nor there?

 

[Erebus]

I still don't get this issue about the club behaving dreadfully. I've lost count of the managers that have been sacked after mass media speculation, mostly fuelled by sources from clubs. I just don't see what's different? Hughton, AVB, Rene, MacKay this year alone in the Premier League - all saw intense media speculation about their futures prior to sacking and similar headlines. At least Woody faced him directly and told him face to face at the ground. Everything else was media speculation that almost every sacked manager in the history of football has experienced. He's been treated the same as everyone else - yet for some reason it's seen as different for Moyes.

 

[Roboc7]

There was no option other than to sack him, he had no support from the players, was out of his depth, out of ideas and just clinging on to the transfer window in the hope of bringing in new players. Keeping him as manager for another season was just not an option he had failed in pretty much every aspect of his job and there were no signs of improvement and to trust him with more time and money would have been a disaster.

I find this idea that he needed time to assess the squad completely ridiculous, had he not seen us play last season? Did he really need time to look at anderson, young to see if they were good enough? He just had completely the wrong personality and mentality for the job, at the top clubs you have to be decisive, be your own man and take risks, that just isn't moyes. When he walked in the door he was over awed and completely unprepared, I think he shares the blame with Woodward for the ridiculous transfer window, they got carried away trying to sign bale and fabregas instead of the likes of thiago and strootman and neither of them had idea about what they were doing.

I don't think the players were walking onto the pitch and not trying but the negativity and lack of faith in the manager had a big impact on confidence and performance. Couple that with the poor tactics and negative mentality of the manager and that is why we had to witness so many poor performances.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

I've read this a lot in the last day or two but really can't get worked up about what happened.

Ultimately, the only person negatively affected is David Moyes. In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter exactly how and when you find out about losing your job? Surely he'll be so gutted about being sacked that the leak to the press a day in advance is neither here nor there?

It doesn't really reflect well on the club too though. By no means am I saying that this will stop players/managers joining us - I'm not that dramatic. But for such a massive decision being leaked from internally in the club was terrible. I know Moyes will pocket a nice pay from the sack, but a man has lost his job. A job at a level that he'll likely never achieve again. He experienced humiliation when he was our manager given how opposition fans were begging United to keep him, and his reign with us ended in the same way but this time from United's actions.

United were terrible this season, and that was mostly down to Moyes' inability to control the team/tactics/whatever. But no one deserves the kind of sacking he had. That's just my opinion. To think how professional and "trustworthy" or sound the club was under Fergie, to go from that to this is quite something.

As you said, the outcome would have been the same either way. But being in Moyes' position, I'd have much preferred knowing before the whole world knew.

 

[Esquire]

I still don't get this issue about the club behaving dreadfully. I've lost count of the managers that have been sacked after mass media speculation, mostly fuelled by sources from clubs. I just don't see what's different? Hughton, AVB, Rene, MacKay this year alone in the Premier League - all saw intense media speculation about their futures prior to sacking and similar headlines. At least Woody faced him directly and told him face to face at the ground. Everything else was media speculation that almost every sacked manager in the history of football has experienced. He's been treated the same as everyone else - yet for some reason it's seen as different for Moyes.

Good point. But I suppose we keep telling ourselves that we are United and thus behave in much more a professional and dignified manner. Allegedlly the entire Monday he was twisting in the wind and no one from the brass told him what was happening despite the rampant rumours. The least the club could have done would be to tell him that his job was being reviewed.

 

[NessunDorma]

Yeah, regardless how likable a chap David comes across as, Giggs > Moyes, any day of the week.

I don't care who's the more likable of the two. One of them is a proven winner beyond the shadow of a doubt. The other, not so much.

Giggs was f*cking his brother's wife for ten years or something. Probably not beyond him to stick the knife in anyone's back, as much as a great player he is.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It doesn't really reflect well on the club too though. By no means am I saying that this will stop players/managers joining us - I'm not that dramatic. But for such a massive decision being leaked from internally in the club was terrible. I know Moyes will pocket a nice pay from the sack, but a man has lost his job. A job at a level that he'll likely never achieve again. He experienced humiliation when he was our manager given how opposition fans were begging United to keep him, and his reign with us ended in the same way but this time from United's actions.

United were terrible this season, and that was mostly down to Moyes' inability to control the team/tactics/whatever. But no one deserves the kind of sacking he had. That's just my opinion. To think how professional and "trustworthy" or sound the club was under Fergie, to go from that to this is quite something.

As you said, the outcome would have been the same either way. But being in Moyes' position, I'd have much preferred knowing before the whole world knew.

I'd probably prefer to hear it face to face but honestly don't see the big deal in a few newspapers running with a story that he was probably getting sacked (on a bank holiday) followed by confirmation of this, face to face, first thing the next working day.

It's not ideal but really it's the least of his worries. At least it should be.

If anything, the criticism of the way in which he was sacked provides a convenient distraction from the main issue here. He was justifiably let go for not being good enough at his job. Something that should have been done sooner, if anything. As it stands, he's getting a lot of sympathy he might not have got otherwise.

 

[Barca84]

Am I hearing it correct that Saint Moyes has accused the players of playing badly on purpose to get him sacked ?
Isn't that technically throwing games ?
Hell of an accusation if true.

If he has said this then his stock can't get any lower. I'm beginning to feel contempt now rather than pity.

No backtracking from me. The man's tenure as our manager has been a complete disaster and for him to continue would've been catastrophic.

 

[Erebus]

If he has said this then his stock can't get any lower. I'm beginning to feel contempt now rather than pity.

No backtracking from me. The man's tenure as our manager has been a complete disaster and for him to continue would've been catastrophic.

spot on

 

[Sultan]

It's just so difficult to keep such things under wraps with law firms, accountants, stock exchange, various employees at the club all working on issues before Moyes can be officially told.

 

[SolidState]

Laughable, the guy was driving us into the ground.

Stories from the training to the backroom staff all the way to "walks on Bondi beach", from the ground up this was a baffling appointment and was doomed to utter failure.

The mistake wasn't firing him the way we did, it was the fact he was appointed.

 

[Sultan]

If he has said this then his stock can't get any lower.

Surely it goes back to Moyes, and the question would be asked why a team of winners would not play to their full potential.

 

[Drummer]

I'd probably prefer to hear it face to face but honestly don't see the big deal in a few newspapers running with a story that he was probably getting sacked (on a bank holiday) followed by confirmation of this, face to face, first thing the next working day.

It's not ideal but really it's the least of his worries. At least it should be.

If anything, the criticism of the way in which he was sacked provides a convenient distraction from the main issue here. He was justifiably let go for not being good enough at his job. Something that should have been done sooner, if anything. As it stands, he's getting a lot of sympathy he might not have got otherwise.

If you think the manner in which he was let go was "ok" you clearly do not understand the concept of showing somebody basic respect. I am inclined to feel that many fans are excusing the actions of players and the club simply because they didn't like DM. If the club treated SAF or Giggs in the same manner, there would be uproar. It shouldn't matter what the fans thought of DM .

The club was an absolute disgrace and if the reports about players are true they were also an absolute disgrace. They aren't paid to think, they are paid to play football for the club.

 

[Drummer]

Surely it goes back to Moyes, and the question would be asked why a team of winners would not play to their full potential.

Lack of character and leadership . . Looks like it left when SAF retired . .

 

[Barca84]

Surely it goes back to Moyes, and the question would be asked why a team of winners would not play to their full potential.

I would say so.

I'm sensing sympathy in the media for Moyes now. Poor "nice man" Moyes harshly treated by big, bad United. The leak of his sacking hasn't helped our cause here as it's given him ammo for having a go and deflecting from the plain and simple fact that he was clueless.

 

[Sultan]

The rumours I'm hearing is Lumsden has a sharp tongue and was not a popular figure around the club. Moyes wanting to change everything from the very day he was appointed did not go down well in the dressing room. If I was to takeover a successful business I'd wait and observe for a certain length of time before changing a winning formula. Openly saying the team needed wholesale changes hardly inspires confidence in players already at the club, and was bound to alienate those not sure of their futures.

 

[sullydnl]

If you think the manner in which he was let go was "ok" you clearly do not understand the concept of showing somebody basic respect. I am inclined to feel that many fans are excusing the actions of players and the club simply because they didn't like DM. If the club treated SAF or Giggs in the same manner, there would be uproar. It shouldn't matter what the fans thought of DM .

The club was an absolute disgrace and if the reports about players are true they were also an absolute disgrace. They aren't paid to think, they are paid to play football for the club.

The players can't stop themselves from thinking or having opinions though, no matter how professional they are. Even if they're good characters who genuinely want to do their best they're obviously going to be disheartened if their new manager isn't good enough and that will always impact on their performance. That's just the way people are.

Not saying I like the way the players behaved but the ultimate problem was the fact that Moyes wasn't good enough. No amount of good behaviour from the players would've changed that.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If you think the manner in which he was let go was "ok" you clearly do not understand the concept of showing somebody basic respect. I am inclined to feel that many fans are excusing the actions of players and the club simply because they didn't like DM. If the club treated SAF or Giggs in the same manner, there would be uproar. It shouldn't matter what the fans thought of DM .

The club was an absolute disgrace and if the reports about players are true they were also an absolute disgrace. They aren't paid to think, they are paid to play football for the club.

I never said it was "ok". I said it was "not ideal".

Calling it an "absolute disgrace" comes across as a little hysterical. Worse things happen in football. It's really not that big a deal.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Lack of character and leadership . . Looks like it left when SAF retired . .

Just a shame that Moyes lacked these attributes, considering he was hired with a view to replacing them.

 

[Sultan]

If you think the manner in which he was let go was "ok" you clearly do not understand the concept of showing somebody basic respect. I am inclined to feel that many fans are excusing the actions of players and the club simply because they didn't like DM. If the club treated SAF or Giggs in the same manner, there would be uproar. It shouldn't matter what the fans thought of DM .

The club was an absolute disgrace and if the reports about players are true they were also an absolute disgrace. They aren't paid to think, they are paid to play football for the club.

I'm actually glad we have players who feel they need to act if they are sure things aren't are working. Most of these players have spent a lifetime at the club, and they're sure to feel hurt if they see a decline due staff taking the club in the wrong direction.

 

[jojojo]

When Moyes arrived he had the choice of leaving the first team on auto-pilot with Meulensteen and Phelan until he got used to the demands of the job and the personalities of the players. He chose not to. In management, including any kind of people management, you live or die by that kind of decision.

By deciding to dismantle the support system there was no one there to stop him making naive mistakes - like taking the team for a walk on the beach on the pre-season tour (and getting them stuck in a crowd, waiting for police/security to rescue them). It's a trivial thing, it shouldn't matter, but it does because players are humans too. They'd have laughed about it at the time but as more serious differences from the old regime - like more running Vs more ball work - started to appear, it turns into "what does he know about managing us?"

Should the players have been model, self-motivated pros, keeping silent about their misgivings, even to each other? Sure, but that's not how people are. If they're not happy they grumble, the moan, they bicker. They don't give their best performance because their heads aren't in the right place.

A few years back, when Redknapp took over from the (sacked) Ramos at Spurs I don't remember SAF being very sympathetic to Ramos. Instead he made the observation that the Spurs players had gone into training smiling, and how that was good, because the training ground has to be a happy place. I don't think United's training ground has been a happy place this year.

I'm not too impressed about the Monday leak of the Tuesday sacking, I think that was unprofessional and discourteous. The sacking itself, I was relieved when it happened. I'm actually looking forward to our remaining matches and excited about next season. I bet the players are too.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

@Drummer

Footballers are highly valuable commodities. Their skills are highly transferable and in great demand. That gives them power and sway.

You can keep saying that you think that they should not think and follow orders like zombies but it is never going to be reality.

You are urinating into the wind by keep going on about it.

 

[Erebus]

If you think the manner in which he was let go was "ok" you clearly do not understand the concept of showing somebody basic respect. I am inclined to feel that many fans are excusing the actions of players and the club simply because they didn't like DM. If the club treated SAF or Giggs in the same manner, there would be uproar. It shouldn't matter what the fans thought of DM .

The club was an absolute disgrace and if the reports about players are true they were also an absolute disgrace. They aren't paid to think, they are paid to play football for the club.

I simply could not disagree more - and I think we'll have to both agree to disagree. Moyes made his decisions and so can not complain about peoples reactions to them. Players are human beings and are going to react - that's the real world. It may not be nice that people react, but that's the world we inhabit. I do understand the basic concept of respect extremely well, but I also know that respect has to be earned through your actions. Like everyone else on this board I am sure we all have people we have no respect for. Our decisions on whether or not to accord people respect is based on our experiences of their actions, our knowledge of our field and the manner in which they behave. Respect is a two way street and I think there are serious issues about the way Moyes treated the players that meant he significantly and constantly failed to earn the players (and my) respect. And also, I do think it's important what the fans thought of David Moyes - here we have a fundamental difference. I passionately believe the fans have a right to comment on their club and that their views do matter - if they don't then what is the point of the caf? I'm not outraged by the way he was treated. He was a disaster for the club and needed to go. He went the way every manager this year has done in the premiership and was told by the club face to face on the first working day of the week. That's exactly the way anyone else would be treated.

 

[Moriarty]

The rumours I'm hearing is Lumsden has a sharp tongue and was not a popular figure around the club. Moyes wanting to change everything from the very day he was appointed did not go down well in the dressing room. If I was to takeover a successful business I'd wait and observe for a certain length of time before changing a winning formula. Openly saying the team needed wholesale changes hardly inspires confidence in players already at the club, and was bound to alienate those not sure of their futures.

Ex-Leeds player. Probably hated United from day one.

 

[stevoc]

Does the young Uruguaun come into this? I think Moyes maybe signed him?. Name begins with a V?

Valera? Don't know to be honest he probably wasn't moyes decision but i think he was signed after SAF had retired and before Moyes officially took over so who knows?

 

[Amir]

I've read this a lot in the last day or two but really can't get worked up about what happened.

Ultimately, the only person negatively affected is David Moyes. In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter exactly how and when you find out about losing your job? Surely he'll be so gutted about being sacked that the leak to the press a day in advance is neither here nor there?

It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but it wasn't done well. Having said that, sacking is never a nice thing, especially when it's such a public situation.

 

[Amir]

It's just so difficult to keep such things under wraps with law firms, accountants, stock exchange, various employees at the club all working on issues before Moyes can be officially told.

It is, but this wasn't leaked. Several reporters were briefed at the same time. It was no different then previous occassions when reports were briefed about Moyes's good job in restructuring the scouting department, for instance. It wasn't some renegade who gave the information to someone. It was done on purpose. What purpose it served, I haven't a clue.

 

[Sultan]

It is, but this wasn't leaked. Several reporters were briefed at the same time. It was no different then previous occassions when reports were briefed about Moyes's good job in restructuring the scouting department, for instance. It wasn't some renegade who gave the information to someone. It was done on purpose. What purpose it served, I haven't a clue.

Thanks

That's just seems unethical.

 

[stevoc]

I've read this a lot in the last day or two but really can't get worked up about what happened.

Ultimately, the only person negatively affected is David Moyes. In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter exactly how and when you find out about losing your job? Surely he'll be so gutted about being sacked that the leak to the press a day in advance is neither here nor there?

Have to say i agree, its not nice that it was leaked before Moyes was told and its not the way we should conduct ourselves as a club.

But having said that in a way its worked out better for Moyes, hes is getting a lot of sympathy because of it in the media, more so than if it hadn't happened.

But also it softened the blow for him instead of him coming to work one day and being caught cold with the news. Some reports that he was impressive in what he had to say to some board members and more importantly to the squad, so no doubt the 24 hours heads up gave him time to gather his thoughts about what he wanted to say to certain people.

Had he been caught by surprise (yeah i know its unlikely he didn't have an inkling) but if he heard the news without forewarning who knows how he would have reacted, he could have angrily lashed out at people and let himself down. Given the lack of sympathy all the staff at carrington seemed to have for him no doubt reports of him getting into shouting matches with people would have leaked out also which wouldn't have painted him in the greatest light.

 

[Drummer]

@Drummer

Footballers are highly valuable commodities. Their skills are highly transferable and in great demand. That gives them power and sway.

You can keep saying that you think that they should not think and follow orders like zombies but it is never going to be reality.

You are urinating into the wind by keep going on about it.

I keep saying people shouldn't keep glossing over unprofessional behaviour simply because they were happy with the outcome. Why do you have an issue with that?

A person can accept that players are c*nts and still point out when they are c*nts...

Incidentally it looks like people are completely missing the point of my posts. It's unprofessional in any context for a footballer to undermine a manager.

Is it ok for fifa to continue being corrupt because that's the norm and they are only human?! Of course not, so stop justifying or minimising sh*thead actions of players.

 

[Ubik]

I keep saying people shouldn't keep glossing over unprofessional behaviour simply because they were happy with the outcome. Why do you have an issue with that?

A person can accept that players are c*nts and still point out when they are c*nts...

Incidentally it looks like people are completely missing the point of my posts. It's unprofessional in any context for a footballer to undermine a manager.

Is it ok for fifa to continue being corrupt because that's the norm and they are only human?! Of course not, so stop justifying or minimising sh*thead actions of players.

How on earth are you going from corruption to our players not respecting Moyes? Stop trying to vilify them purely because your favoured man got the kick.

 

[ScarleyUtd]

It's crazy.

Agreed. You just know how things have been feeling the last few months that it couldn't go on. I'm convinced Moyes himself has expected the boot for a little while actually.

 

[Drummer]

How on earth are you going from corruption to our players not respecting Moyes? Stop trying to vilify them purely because your favoured man got the kick.

People are excusing players undermining and not performing as some sort of normal acceptable human attribute. They are justifying unprofessional behaviour because it's seen as part and parcel of the modern game. Corruption in fifa is also part of the modern game. Both excuses that it's part of the game are equally as pathetic.

 

[SteveJ]

All this seems to me like storm in a teacup stuff. If we, as fans, concluded that Moyes wouldn't advance us, why on earth shouldn't the players (whose careers were at stake, after all) come to the same conclusion? Their livelihoods depend not only on their skills but also on the nous & capabilities of their manager(s) so they have a greater vested interest than we do. When I read about how Mourinho was undermined by Real players (for example, the rumour that some of them surrounded Perez like spoilt kids seeking sweets from a doting grandfather, saying "Presi, if he stays then we go") our squad's actions seem small-fry or, at least, as reasonable as could be expected given the circumstances they found themselves in.

Nobody likes to see players behave unprofessionally, it's true, but I honestly don't see much that appears 'disgraceful' or 'disgusting' in our players' behaviour, especially bearing in mind that journalists, players, the club, and Moyes will seek to muddy the waters according to their own agendas & public relations.

 

[Will Absolute]

6 pages of debate on Moyes's sacking? It was the most obvious, deserved sacking by a major club that I can remember. And putting a mid-table manager with no track record of success in charge of a dressing room full of multi-trophy winning alpha males was always asking for trouble, even more so when trusted intermediaries likes Phelan were dismissed. It really was history repeating, the tragedy of post-Busby (poor Wilf losing his hair overnight) replaced by post-Fergie farce (Feck Off Round with his set plays book).

Unless the players' ears are disconnected from their brains, it has to be 'F**k off Phil'.

 

[Ubik]

People are excusing players undermining and not performing as some sort of normal acceptable human attribute. They are justifying unprofessional behaviour because it's seen as part and parcel of the modern game. Corruption in fifa is also part of the modern game. Both excuses that it's part of the game are equally as pathetic.

 

[Ducklegs]

He knew he was out of a job on sunday, just rewatch his post match interview on Sky.

 

[gasmanc]

Moyes squawking in public about things being fed to the press that really should have stayed in house. Ironic.