I don't think Giggs would ever of been a world record transfer if we'd sold him. Not that we would of.
Is Bale considered more of a success on the international stage than Giggs?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Of course he is. Bale is just a better player than Giggs overall in my opinion. Personally think our Welshman is often overrated. He was a footballer with great close control and technical ability, more so than Bale - but he didn't affect a result anywhere near as much. Similar to why Bale is comfortably better than Hazard for me, who's somewhere in between a great player and a nothing player himself.
If you're talking about a 30 yo + Giggs then you might be correct.
Wales has a better sqaud now then it did when Giggs was playing although he did miss a number of games which riled the fans.
It's not even worth discussion. Bale has dragged his country to levels never seen before. Giggs tried his best for Wales (when Fergie let him attend) but could never be the talismanic figure Bale has become. Bale is quite simply one of the finest international players in recent memory.
Lentini to AC Milan held the world record transfer fee from 1992 to 1996 at £13 million, then Ronaldo from PSV to Barca (£13.2m) and Shearer from Blackburn to Newcastle (£15m) both broke the record in the summer of 1996. I think its highly likely that Giggs could have surpassed those figures if we'd sold him early in his career, and the big Italian clubs were always rumoured to be interested in him.
Bale plays abroad and basically solo wins games for Wales. He's also played in an international tournament and not just that, scored a couple and got to the semis.
Also matches Giggs ECL record already.
So yes. Bale is like Wales' Ronaldo.
Also matches Giggs ECL record already.
So yes. Bale is like Wales' Ronaldo.
Not sure if that's true, Giggs scored wonder goals for us in critical games, tore apart Juventus numerous times in the CL, at the peak of his career in his 20's he definitely wasn't beneath Bale as far as match winning performances. Hell even in his late thirties Giggs was producing MOTM displays in the Manchester derby.
Bale I don't think has such a well rounded game to have the longevity of Giggsy, Bale in his 30's will not be able to produce the level of performances Giggs was able to produce at the same age because his game is very one dimensional. Hazard is a superior footballer to Bale but Bale is the more confident and has a better mentality and approach to matches, not sure if that makes him better though. The thing with Bale is his speed gets people excited, seeing him just blow past people I think causes some slight overreaction and overstating of his ability. It's fantastic to watch in full flight but when he's not doing that, it all gets a bit average.
Not to say I disagree with the premise of the thread. Bale has definitely done more for Wales than Giggs ever did. I don't think Giggs is 'truly' welsh to be honest, United were number one for him. With Bale it's basically the opposite.
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It's not like Giggs didn't play with good players himself in the Wales setup (Blackmore, Hughes, Southall, Rush, Speed, Hartson, Saunders, Bellamy, Savage, Davies, Koumas, Earnshaw).
Yep. And that's why it's so f*cking insulting when people boost Forest Giggs for the Wales job, as if Wales were so smalltime that Ryan would be doing us a favour.
Really? Please tell me you meant to spell it this way?
Giggs> Bale as a footballer, the reverse is true for their NT exploits. Bale is pretty overrated for the amount he cost, he's had impact in short bursts at Madrid but equally there have been enough times when his own pedigree has been questioned by those at Madrid. I wouldn't ever have him over Giggs when both are at their prime.
Oh I think both Giggs and Hazard are certainly more gifted. I just think they have less substance.
As a United fan, for instance, there are always players that scare me when we come up against them. From that perspective, my criteria is never who will 'run us ragged' or something like that, it's more about players who I trust to affect the result given the opportunity. Sometimes that is a combination of things like bottle that are in play here. Ultimately, there are many gifted players who don't scare me. They could win man of the match but when the golden chance presents, I expect them to scuff their shot, not take the shot because they are trying to decorate the goal and add an extra pass (Hazard) or just over hit the pass altogether. Sterling used to be one who I'd love the 'big moment' to fall to for example, and De Bruyne has far more substance than Silva, despite less ability I think.
Football was different in Giggs' day I guess, and wingers were not expected to have the output that Bale has now, so perhaps I am being harsh on him. Hazard, however, I do not rate. He's an Arsenal pink football boots player to me, and always seems more concerned at being some sort of footballing poet or perfectionist on the pitch than impacting the result. Cristiano Ronaldo, for instance, is very different to Bale and Hazard. He gets the ball and he instantly looks to affect the game. Hazard prances around.
No way Bale is overrated for his value in this day and age. Scorer of goals in finals and match winning performances. Put it another way if you had 80m in your pocket who would you choose Pogba or Bale.
Those are fair and good arguments and I agree with them. I think a lot of it is down to mentality, Sterling is a great example as far as those big moments are concerned, we even saw it last night, he was in a position to score but went for the easier option and passed and it's something he's done in the past a lot, he just doesn't have that confidence or bottle as you said. With Hazard it's similar but it looked like he was coming out of that shell two years ago, he's completely failed to kick on but at least he does look to be coming back to his best again this season.
With Giggs, like you said it was a different era for a winger where you weren't expected to do too much in the final third but some of the things Giggsy could do back in the day, I have no doubt were he playing now as a left forward he would hit 15-20 goal a season figures easy.
Kind of an irrelevant comparison that but even so I don't believe Pogba is worth what we paid for, not right now at least. The role of a winger has changed too since Giggs time but in general while he came on and had nice cameos in CL finals and scores goals for an overpowered Madrid in a relatively under-powered league I think he is overrated. Just my opinion.
Without checking the stats, I'm sure Kanchelskis used to get a good amount of goals from out wide even back in the day, but I can't recall too many others TBH.
Off the top of my head, Ronaldo was probably the first 18+ goal wide player/midfielder in the PL. Harry Kewell got a fair few I guess.
Aye, he definitely had a lot more defensive responsibility than any wide attackers operating in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 today. The same would apply for other wide players of that era like Luis Figo or Pavel Nedved who were getting about 10 goals a season. And if you go back even further the likes of Robert Donadoni were lucky to get up to around 5 for the season. It's more about the shift in tactics than the quality of the player.
And Giggs was a "star" or "superstar" at one of the truly great club sides in recent memory. Why is being a star at the average Spurs winning the 4th places trophy a bigger deal? Also, why is being a superstar at Madrid any greater than being one at Manchester United?
To me, I can't make this comparison but I do think they are very different careers and roles. Bale has little defensive responsibility and his job is pure and simple to score or assist and be direct at it. Giggs from what I gather had different role at Untied entirely, which involved much more defending and tracking his fullback back, and basically involved wingplay at the heat of it. Going purely by goals and assists per game, Bale will always win.
No, the wales team bale is in happens to be better than the wales team Giggs was in.
Yeah Kanchelskis was great at getting goals, even at Everton. What a player, great to watch as well. Kewell was a good goal scorer too but he played up front quite a bit or rather just off the striker but yeah generally not many.
Yep and people need to be careful with that before they downplay Giggs in comparison to Bale. That's where stats can be misleading and it's better to actually look at the player, his attributes and overall skill set. Jaffyjoe was mentioning something about pace, power and striking a ball making Bale special. Giggs excelled in all these areas but he couldn't showcase it as often as Bale can because of the shift in tactics and positional set ups. Bale pretty much has a free role and goalscoring responsibility at Real Madrid is placed on him and Ronaldo. That wasn't the case for Giggs.
Giggs became very distant with Wales and never looked like he could drag them on like Bale has. Granted Bale is surrounded by a couple of better players but its a no-contest on the international stage imho. Bale will go down as probably the best international Wales ever had when he finally packs it in. Giggs will be remembered (at least with the Welsh lads I know) as a player who despite his amazing ability always put club before country (which of course was great for United.) Actually had this discussion with a load of Welsh lads on Monday night.
I actually find Giggs way overrated by United fans. He should never have been voted the best player in our history. That should have been Sir Bobby Charlton or Brian Robson, could have been Ronaldo by miles had he stayed. Giggs should never have been even in the first 10, as I can name at least 10 greater United players than Giggs.
Yes, as a youngster he might have had lots of talent, but he never really fulfilled his potential. He was never as good a dribbler as George Best was, his goal scoring rate was about 1 in 6, his assists numbers come nowhere near Beckham's, his end products was often erratic as well. In fact, only his later years his end product improved a little. May be my expectations are a bit high, but George Best, Cristiano Ronaldo and David Beckham are the only wingers from United history who I genuinely rate.
For me, if a winger is to considered great, he has to make or score or be involved with at the least 0.75 goals per match. As far as much knowledge from stats, from United, only George Best, Cristiano Ronalo and David Beckham match this standard, others don't. Yes, Giggs had his moments, but he was nowhere near as consistent as these 3 mentioned players.
Similarly, when comparing Giggs with Bale, with respect to the international career, he comes far inferior to Bale. Giggs was nowhere near as influential as Bale has been for Wales. In nearly the same number of games played, Bale already scored more than twice the number of goals scored by Giggs.
Yes, as a youngster he might have had lots of talent, but he never really fulfilled his potential. He was never as good a dribbler as George Best was, his goal scoring rate was about 1 in 6, his assists numbers come nowhere near Beckham's, his end products was often erratic as well. In fact, only his later years his end product improved a little. May be my expectations are a bit high, but George Best, Cristiano Ronaldo and David Beckham are the only wingers from United history who I genuinely rate.
For me, if a winger is to considered great, he has to make or score or be involved with at the least 0.75 goals per match. As far as much knowledge from stats, from United, only George Best, Cristiano Ronalo and David Beckham match this standard, others don't. Yes, Giggs had his moments, but he was nowhere near as consistent as these 3 mentioned players.
Similarly, when comparing Giggs with Bale, with respect to the international career, he comes far inferior to Bale. Giggs was nowhere near as influential as Bale has been for Wales. In nearly the same number of games played, Bale already scored more than twice the number of goals scored by Giggs.
Agreed, although it should be said that Giggs' assist stats in particular over an incredibly long period were actually brilliant. From @Mrs Smoker 's brilliant thread in the Utd forum:
Player focus
Ryan Giggs
This whole project started when I saw the post claiming that Giggs had astonishing 284 assists in his career. Surely, that's hogwash, with his goals, how could he be directly responsible for almost 25% of all United goals? Ridiculous. 100-150 at most I'd say. Didn't help that first two seasons I watched and counted the stats were 1992-93 and 1998-99. He had 5 and 7 in those.
Needless to say, I was dead wrong.
What an astonishing career for the most decorated player in MUFC & English football history. I'd say he was the best United player ever. It was popular on Cafe to say that Giggs never reached the highs Bale did for instance. I'll never agree with that. Especially after watching and re-watching his career in the past month or so. Skilled and fast, a real menace to opponents. And he did it for 20+ seasons.
In the sea of highlight videos, this one really isn't all that bad. More goals oriented though. He was much more than just that.
The stats don't really bare out this supposed gulf in productivity between Becks and Giggs. From Mrs Smoker again:
That's 0.55 goals + assists for Beckham per game versus 0.49 for Giggs. Given that Giggs was here for 24 seasons and Becks left when he was still near his prime the difference is negligible.Player focus
David Beckham
About time we dedicate some more space to him. Just how useful he'd be these days when Valencia and Young have 1 in 15 success rate between them. Great long passer, great crosser, shame he left when he did.
If you ask most people who was better - giggs as a youngster or bale at Tottenham then I'd assume people would say the better player was giggs. What skews peoples perception towards bale is his contribution to Madrid but by then he has few flaws to his game & he is bought to fulfill a particular role. (This being to provide a symmetrical approach to Ronaldo)
Bale has done amazing & already payed back every last penny of his transfer but that's why he might be seen as more valuable after all giggs was 0urs from day 1.
Giggs is our boy & you could argue without him we as a club would not be where we are today - being the most successful English club ever.
If it wasn't bale for Madrid; it would have been someone else. Bale is meeting every expectation that has been bestowed 0n him but he has not made Madrid the team they are today pr been part pf the best Madrid team ever.
Ultimately, are Madrid fans more likely to forget about bale 0r United fans forget about giggs ?
That's an easy answer & that's the reason why currently Bale might be getting more recognition but in 30 years time - it will will be Ryan.
Bale has done amazing & already payed back every last penny of his transfer but that's why he might be seen as more valuable after all giggs was 0urs from day 1.
Giggs is our boy & you could argue without him we as a club would not be where we are today - being the most successful English club ever.
If it wasn't bale for Madrid; it would have been someone else. Bale is meeting every expectation that has been bestowed 0n him but he has not made Madrid the team they are today pr been part pf the best Madrid team ever.
Ultimately, are Madrid fans more likely to forget about bale 0r United fans forget about giggs ?
That's an easy answer & that's the reason why currently Bale might be getting more recognition but in 30 years time - it will will be Ryan.
How did you know?!
Seriously though, I just find the whole tournament more enjoyable as it seems the teams in the Copa are more inclined to attack thus creating a more entertaining game. Plus, they're usually on in the middle of the night for me considering I'm in Manchester so watching games live at that time are always fun.
Giggs was very graceful player whereas Bale is effective, kick and run type player.
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/4r1o94/ryan_giggs_all_the_goals_assists_for_manchester/
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/comments/4r1o94/ryan_giggs_all_the_goals_assists_for_manchester/
Outrageous?
I would say it's clear and obvious, Bale is one of the best players in the world these days.
I'd rather have a 21 year old Bale than a 21 year old Giggs. Not much in it though.
Time difference makes it impossible to watch for me. *sigh* Sometimes, when I hear you guys talk, it sounds like I'm missing out on something. If only good entertainment. Neymar sure looked like he had more fun in Brazil, judging from the Youtube videos that I've seen.How did you know?!
Seriously though, I just find the whole tournament more enjoyable as it seems the teams in the Copa are more inclined to attack thus creating a more entertaining game. Plus, they're usually on in the middle of the night for me considering I'm in Manchester so watching games live at that time are always fun.
I'd definitely recommend catching some of the Copa games if you can. Most are a fun watch. Personally, I find international games, for the most part anyway, boring so I may overrate the tournament as international games that are the slightest bit entertaining to me are a God-send!
Well Giggs played and almost beat South Korea in the Olympic quarter-finals in 2012. Surely that makes up for not giving Wales a top 4 spot in the Euros.
Bale is the type of player who can change a game on his own, Giggs was never that player.
Really? He did so that on a number of occasions you know, like arsenal far cup and Juventus
With massive regret, I think the only player Welsh fans will really remember will be Gareth Bale. I mean, he has a goal per game ratio of 0.39, which is the same as John Charles and a tenth more than Ian Rush (who we shouldn't forget was a deadly finisher in his day for Liverpool) and yet he is not a real forward like your Ian Rushes of the day. He has changed the way Wales play and he has that self-belief in his own abilities and he has dragged that national team to very nearly winning the Euro 2016. Whereas Giggs had a great club career, Bale is simply doing it on the big stage too and that is what matters. For me, Ryan Giggs was the exception to the rule with regards to speed, reflexes, his turn of pace, his tricks and his dribbles, but I don't think the Welsh population will remember Giggs in the same way they might remember Gareth Bale.
Even before we qualified for this Euros I'd wager that every Wales fan would have Bale ahead of Giggs, the fact Bale led us to and performed decently at a major tournament is just the icing on the cake. Giggs never really gave a damn about the national team, he should be top of our attendance and goal scoring records, but without checking I doubt he's even top 10 for either. That in itself tells the whole story, he spent the majority of his international career feigning injury during the international breaks, and then days later turning out in a United shirt.
Giggs is the reason I started supporting United in the mid 90s, but despite that I wouldn't even have him in a top 5 list when it comes to Welsh players...
Giggs is the reason I started supporting United in the mid 90s, but despite that I wouldn't even have him in a top 5 list when it comes to Welsh players...
There's always a massive underestimation of Bale's technique. He has superb technique, you don't play for Madrid solely because you can run fast.
Giggs is great and while I don't think he was that bothered about Wales, I don't blame him either, Wales were shit and he was at United.
I'd still take Bale over Giggs.
If you want, you could say that what Bale did for Wales is an even greater achievement than what Cristiano did with Portugal. I mean, it is not as if Wales have loads of world class players in the team. With the feigning injury bit, I probably would put that down to Sir Alex having a say to keep his players fresh. Just as Arsene Wenger is doing with Ozil and Germany at the moment. Either way, credit to Bale for doing his bit for a small country (don't take that badly) where football isn't really the national sport; yes, I know, you are a supporter of Glamorgan CCC aren't you?
Who would be your top 5?
Without putting too much thought in and in no order
Bale
Southall
Bellamy
J.Charles
Rush
Giggs would of course be in there if I was judging just on talent. I also think with the change in culture about playing for Wales, Giggs would have massively benefitted from playing in today's Welsh setup.