Is DM the most important position in football?

[Mockney]

So yeah yeah yeah, Casemiro’s impact has been incredible, but it’s also fair to say that one of the only other players to have had such a singular personal impact on the success of the teams they’ve played for recently (compared to what they’re like without him) has been N’Golo Kante - won the league with fecking Leicester, goes to Chelsea & immediately wins the league. Then he wins the World Cup and CL, and both teams go to shit when he starts to miss long periods with injury.

At one point he was celebrated as finally usurping Claude Makelele as the prominent example of that position - named due to being the player whose sale during the Galactico era immediately made Madrid worse, despite all the stars and coincided with Chelsea suddenly winning the PL (pretty much immediately IIRC)

Everyone (& Gary Neville) bangs on about good teams needing a goal scorer to reach that next level, but Haaland - possibly the purest of genetically engineered goal scorers - hasn’t really improved City, and we didn’t really win an awful lot with Ruud. In fact the only big signing we made to transition from the okay to good side we were in late Ruud 2005, to the really great one we were from post Ruud 2006 onwards, was Michael Carrick.

So… is a good DM actually the most impactful, transformative position in football?

Discuss.

* RVP is obviously a troublesome exception to this theory. But that also was really only one season, rather than a trend.

 

[Blood Mage]

I think it is yes. You only need to look at our transformation with Casemiro, and Liverpool's decline now that Fabinho is shit.

 

[Fortitude]

Short answer is: yes.

Long answer: not in the mood to type that.

 

[Scandi Red]

AMs used to be the kings, but Christina Milian could foresee the rise of DMs. She even made a song about it: From AM to DM

Spoiler: Sick

 

[Mockney]

Short answer is: yes.

Long answer: not in the mood to type that.

Fair play. I guess a better discussion question would be:

What other position is remotely comparable to the impact of a world class DM?

Arsenal had Ozil for ages - who was credited with being one of the most important players for Madrid and Germany’s success back then, but he didn’t really elevate them to any success. Same could be said for the Pogba’s and Mata’s of this world too. Spurs have had Kane, & Haaland didn’t really make Dortmund very competitive.

 

[Scandi Red]

I don't think you can break it down to a single position, but I do think that central midfield(DM, CM, AM) is the most important link. The link doesn't necessarily need to be world class, but there is a minimum requirement involved. Needless to say that McFred is far below that minimum requirement

If you look at our strongest United team ever, which would be the 2008 team in my opinion, the central midfield(and RB) was actually our weakest link.

 

[Glorio]

It's up there - the transition from Fernandinho to Rodri had City scrambling

Fabinho's drop off in form is causing Liverpool all sorts of problems

Casemiro and Partey have raised their respective teams levels, in fact, every team with a high performing DM is doing well
Man United, Arsenal, Fulham, I'll include Newcastle and Brighton as well (some may argue their deepest midfielders are not pure 6s, however, that's the position they mostly play)

 

[SilentWitness]

A DM/The defensive actions of your midfielders, yes. Look how much Liverpool have fallen apart without Fabinho on top form and Henderson providing defensive cover for their full-backs. Partey and Casemiro in respect to you and Arsenal giving protection and the platform for your other midfielders to do their thing going forward etc.

 

[Red the Bear]

I don't think you can break it down to a single position, but I do think that central midfield(DM, CM, AM) is the most important link. The link doesn't necessarily need to be world class, but there is a minimum requirement involved. Needless to say that McFred is far below that minimum requirement

If you look at our strongest United team ever, which would be the 2008 team in my opinion, the central midfield(and RB) was actually our weakest link.

That's why I always rate our treble winning team higher.

 

[romufc]

I think the DM is the most important position.

Alot of people have said look at Liverpool, not just that, look at all the top teams, they all have WC DM's.

Real had Casemiro - led them to many trophies
City with Fernandinho
Chelsea when Kante and Matic were together
Makelele
Kimmich at Bayern.

Arsenal fell out of top 4 last season coincided with a Partey injury.

 

[Scandi Red]

That's why I always rate our treble winning team higher.

As sick as that midfield was, we were still a lot more shaky as a team. This kind of busts the myth that a top midfield always will give you complete control over the game. 1999 was a different era, though.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Not sure most important but it's one which is probably harder to play and more tactical/positional than most other roles.

I personally think striker is the most important, nothing really replaces a goal scorer and you can offset not having a good DM (as United did for years) and still win things.

 

[AltiUn]

Short answer is: yes.

Long answer: not in the mood to type that.

 

[ZahaWilf]

I would say it comes down to a good spine, so DM is obviously included in that but like someone said previously you can't just say one specific position is the most important. It is becoming a very important position these days compared to when the premier league first started though, as managers seem to prefer 4-3-3 formation rather than 4-4-2.

 

[duffer]

Stick me in defensive midfield for any team in the Prem and they'd do a lot worse.

Stick me in goal for any team in the Prem and they'd lose every game.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Yes, especially in the modern game where space is tight and pressing as a collective is so important. Now, there are different types of DM's of course but the general importance of a top "holding" CM is incredibly valuable. A good DM can allow you to be more aggressive in transitions with and without the ball, and push other players higher up the pitch as he can cover the defensive work of two lesser players. Push higher up the pitch and more aggresively= more pressure on the opposition defense and more chances created as a result.

To your point, I'd argue a top goalscoring CF has never been less important. There are countless examples of successful teams without a classic box striker in recent times. Of course they can still be valuable players, but there's much more flexibility in how to approach that position and the qualities you can look for based on other personnel and the style of play the overall team produces. However, a DM with great positional awareness and work rate will fit into literally any side, and if he can also distribute play you get Casemiro or someone similar that elevates a decent side to a top side instantly.

 

[11101]

Central midfield is the most important position on the pitch because everything runs through it.

That said, a properly brilliant forward can make more of a difference than any other player on the pitch. See R9, Messi etc.

 

[mu4c_20le]

It's very important which is even more baffling that everyone before Erik basically disregarded that position, and kept putting in makeshifts like McT, Fred, Fellaini, Matic.

 

[weetee]

Kimmich at Bayern.

I'd argue the opposite: if Bayern had a worldclass DM (Kimmich is no "real" DM) alongside Kimmich they would be much, much better - kinda the point you make about DMs being one of if not the crucial position which I agree on. It's no coincidence that they lack a lot in that department since Thiago left, who is no real DM as well of course but much better defensively + can playmake (ball control, passing and dribbling) under pressure which Kimmich can not do on an elite level. There is a reason Kimmich played RB in the CL final and Thiago CM while Bayern had two other RBs on the bench.

 

[JPRouve]

Makalele.

 

[romufc]

I'd argue the opposite: if Bayern had a worldclass DM (Kimmich is no "real" DM) alongside Kimmich they would be much, much better - kinda the point you make about DMs being one of if not the crucial position which I agree on. It's no coincidence that they lack a lot in that department since Thiago left, who is no real DM as well of course but much better defensively + can playmake (ball control, passing and dribbling) under pressure which Kimmich can not do on an elite level. There is a reason Kimmich played RB in the CL final and Thiago CM while Bayern had two other RBs on the bench.

Fair enough, I wont lie, besides the CL I barely watch Bayern so I dont know how Kimmich is doing for them at DM however; I know he is a fantastic player in that position.

Maybe the reason they bought Sabitzer and now Laimer is to give the the balance alongside Kimmich?

 

[Basa1987]

It's very important which is even more baffling that everyone before Erik basically disregarded that position, and kept putting in makeshifts like McT, Fred, Fellaini, Matic.

Are we forgetting Matic here? We did sign him a bit too late though.

 

[weetee]

Fair enough, I wont lie, besides the CL I barely watch Bayern so I dont know how Kimmich is doing for them at DM however; I know he is a fantastic player in that position.

Maybe the reason they bought Sabitzer and now Laimer is to give the the balance alongside Kimmich?

Nope, wouldn't say that. In fact I'd say they very much changed their overall and long proven system of having at least one stabilizing and balancing midfielder in their system (Schweinsteiger, partly even Lahm, Alonso, Thiago) and went after the Liverpool/RedBull total pressing play which Laimer is good for. Gravenbrech (or what's his name is) would actually be a good player in a possession based system but sees little minutes I think.
the Kimmich+Goretzka combo imho is the main reason Bayern don't play top level anymore. both too much forward thinking and no elite positional awareness which imho is key to control the midfield ergo the game. Partly it's down to Nagelsmann who plays this sorta all-out-attack play which lets them score crazy numbers of goals in the league if it goes their way but funnily enough more often than not doesn't really work out as we can see in the total points they got. Or last year CL against Villareal where they were through but Kimmich/Goretzka (+Nagelsmann ultimately) went rather for another gung-ho attack in the final minutes, lose the ball and the game due the goal scored by the resulting counterattack.

Same with German NT, no control in midfield at all. Not great but much more stable with Gündogan in midfield - no wonder we mostly lost our control and games when he was substituted for Goretzka at the WC.

I don't like Kimmich much but of course he's a great player but also a bit a victim of his own making imho.

 

[Nobby style]

Can't have this conversation without mentioning Busquets. Would mention Veratti as well, too bad he's made of glass and plays in the French league overshadowed by the massive personalities on PSG

 

[Swoobs]

It has to be goalkeeper position man.

 

[caid]

I don't think you can break it down to a single position, but I do think that central midfield(DM, CM, AM) is the most important link. The link doesn't necessarily need to be world class, but there is a minimum requirement involved. Needless to say that McFred is far below that minimum requirement

If you look at our strongest United team ever, which would be the 2008 team in my opinion, the central midfield(and RB) was actually our weakest link.

I thought it was good that year. But i think it was Scholes last great season, close enough to Hargreaves last meaningful season and Andersons best season. So it didn't last. Giggs and Carrick as depth was pretty great too imo. Fletcher barely got a look in that year.
It was a similar situation with 99 really. Schmeichel and Irwin retired. Johnson's injuries. Stam moving on shortly after.
Our best teams were a bit transitory and came at a sweet spot between older players still being at their best and young players coming into their peak (Rooney and Ronaldo vs. Class of 92).

I think dm is pretty important at the moment. The high press is so common and they're pretty important to play through it and pretty essential to deal with the inevitable counter attacks that come when you play it

 

[Irwin99]

I don't think you can break it down to a single position, but I do think that central midfield(DM, CM, AM) is the most important link. The link doesn't necessarily need to be world class, but there is a minimum requirement involved. Needless to say that McFred is far below that minimum requirement

If you look at our strongest United team ever, which would be the 2008 team in my opinion, the central midfield(and RB) was actually our weakest link.

Probably true actually although we had good variety in there with Fletcher, Scholes, Carrick, Anderson and Hargreaves. Carrick definitely had his best seasons at the club from 2011 onward, i don't buy that argument that he was just 'noticed more' later in his career. Scholes dropping deeper and taking up more of deep playmaker role had a far more transformative effect on the club in 06-07 than anything else.

The topic is an interesting argument. We've won titles with below par keepers, and strikers who didn't get 20 goals a season. I think we've won titles where we've conceded 40+ goals too?

The majority of title winning teams (all?) have had a midfielder who dominated matches in the likes of Ince, Keane, Vieira, Petit, Makele, Scholes, Kante, Fernandinho, Carrick (12-13) . Is there a title winning team that had an average midfield? Even some of the challengers that didn't win the league like the Liverpool team around 07-09 had a really strong centre with Mascherano, Alonso, and Gerrard which seemed to go to sh*t when their manager seemed to alienate Alonso.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

* RVP is obviously a troublesome exception to this theory. But that also was really only one season, rather than a trend.

The exception that proves the rule. RVP’s peak at United coincided with Carrick rolling the clock back and producing arguably his best ever season too.

Also. Yes. Agree with premise in OP. Despite the fact our most successful period ever involved many years where the world and his wife seemed to think Fergie was being borderline negligent in his refusal to sign a top DM. Go figure.

 

[NoLogo]

Are we forgetting Matic here? We did sign him a bit too late though.

Same goes for Schweini, two players who in their prime would have undoubtably elevated our midfield to another level.

 

[VivaObertan]

I understand the premise but I'd say that intelligent midfielders in general are most important to a team. Casemiro could play in a midfield 2 in for 4-4-2, for example...

 

[flappyjay]

I would rather say midfield is the most important department in a team. A strong midfield shields the defence whilst providing ammunition to the attack.

 

[Zen86]

A midfielder who can shield the defence and knows where he needs to be positionally has always been one of the most important positions in football. It’s just always been one of the more understated roles as well.

 

[ThreeCorners]

In the end, it's adding the right world class players or Manager for the team that will transform them. Casemiro has been incredible, but the key transformation has been down to ten Hag overall.
He deserves enormous credit for improving our players (especially Rashford).

You mentioned Van Persie, but you forgot Cantona as arguably the most influential transfer for us ever.
Title winners Chelsea in 2014/15 added Fabregas and Diego Costa. You say Kante transformed them in 2016/17, but they were champions just 2 seasons before.
Chelsea's first premier league title winning side added Mourinho, Drogba, Cech, and Robben that season.
City won in 16/17 adding Bernardo Silva, and Ederson, Liverpool won the champions league 2018-19 adding Fabinho but i would say Alisson, and it was also Van Dijk's first full season made the bigger impact.

 

[Mockney]

Stick me in defensive midfield for any team in the Prem and they'd do a lot worse.

Stick me in goal for any team in the Prem and they'd lose every game.

It has to be goalkeeper position man.

Yes, this is technically true. Keeper is the one position where you can’t ever have a complete passenger… but then theyre also routinely ignored for the big player awards by virtue of being big weirdos who aren’t technically really footballers, so I think it’s fair to just ignore them for this too.

Also as others have mentioned, the increased importance of quick transitions in big teams these days makes DMs arguably more important now than in other decades… also more so in the PL than in, say, Seria A in the 90s. But it’s still unusual for any of the historically great teams to have had a so-so player there.

 

[Mockney]

That said, a properly brilliant forward can make more of a difference than any other player on the pitch. See R9, Messi etc.

R9 never won the CL (see Madrid post Makalele) and didn’t win much in Seria A, either (despite them having an absolutely insane front line around him too) Though the great Brazil sides of 98-2002 admittedly didn’t really have a world class DM either.

 

[Red the Bear]

As sick as that midfield was, we were still a lot more shaky as a team. This kind of busts the myth that a top midfield always will give you complete control over the game. 1999 was a different era, though.

I'd mostly attribute that to Fergie's high octane gung ho style style football more than anything else something which Fergie had given up on completely by the time he won his second European cup.

I doubt our treble winning team would ever become stumped the way our 2008 team became when they faced Barcelona, Fergie missed a trick by not investing in the middle more than he did.

 

[Champ]

You could have the world's best defensive minded midfielder but you're not winning anything if you don't have goalscorers or a defence.

In every example given in this thread, the teams also had world class goalscorers: Liverpool: Salah, Real Madrid: Benzema, City: Aguero etc etc.

West Ham are a prime example, they have a superb Defensive Midfielder, one of the best in the league on his day yet they are shocking, why? Because they don't have a goalscorer, nor do they have the defence to back him up.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

It’s important but also Bruno had a similar impact when upgraded from Pereira and Lingard at AM. Look at Declan Rice at West Ham who is clearly good enough for a top 4 team yet is near the bottom of the table because other players let him down. All positions matter.

At the end of the day McTominay was so bad and a mid-table player that an upgrade that large was always going to show with a world class player like Casemiro. Similar what could happen if we got Kane instead of Weghorst, we’d be going for the title then I imagine.

 

[giorno]

No, Casemiro(and Kante and Makelele) happens to be an all time great, a transformative player

 

[Someone]

I wouldn't say it's the most important, but I'd say central midfield in general if not good exposes the flaws of the team badly. We've achieved a lot through the years while having dependable CMs because we had good defenders and attackers. Put 2 poor CBs there and suddenly a top DM is critical.