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Is Harry Maguire being a worldwide punchline deserved?

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Gandalf Greyhame

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It's completely deserved.

He lives in denial about his limitations and sheer incompetence, and it shows in his game.

Acceptance would have meant he could try to adapt and play around his weaknesses at least, and lead to lesser disasters. It would also not get him to panic everytime he's under pressure because he would plan for how to deal with it or ask for help.
 

Messier1994

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Anyone was surprised at "how good" Sevilla was last night? Both offensively and defensively?

This is 100% the reason for it. Sevilla dropped down and defended very deep with 11 players. The problem when you do that is that it can become really hard to get up field once you win the ball. But we did not take advantage of that at all in any way shape or form. This is the two Sevilla players furthest up the pitch. Lindelof and Maguire are what 30 ft from them and sprints home at full speed. This happened all night. All Sevilla needed to do was poke a ball loose and they could go on the attack undisturbed. I can easily find 20 similar pictures, and I have to question how ETH handled this issue.

But anyway -- we can say what we want about Lindelof and Maguire. But this is what you get from bad coaching. Lindelof and Maguire have (a) played like this for many many years and (b) they have never played up from the back. Lindelof has played many many games for Sweden -- you can't find a football team that plays up less from the back than Sweden in today's football.

From my point of view -- the big issue is not Maguire, but a deeper problem that will cause bigger issues. There have been talk on how executives in MUFC's transfer department are sceptical about listening too much to ETH expressing concerns along the line of: It will be very damaging for the club if you only hand pick players for him -- and the next coach want a different type of player. I mean, it is 2023, anyone who today forms some sort of educated opinion on what style is best -- for a top team -- in football, can see how playing up from the back and playing a high defensive line is the way to go. All top teams does it. But obviously, if you lived in football 24/7 for 20 years when something else was more effective -- the above just shows that you don't have to see it, you can be stuck in the past. And this is a big challenge for ETH.

When Pep took over Manchester City -- one of the biggest stars on that team was a well established starter for the English national team, GK Joe Hart. This is an direct account from Joe Hart on his first conversation with Pep:
It was a two-hour conversation that kind of ended with him [Guardiola] saying 'I can’t see this working'," Hart said. "He said 'I’ll be the first person to be proved wrong but what I see in you isn’t what I want from my goalkeeper'. "I was like 'it’s all very well saying that, but I’ve never been asked to do the kind of things I know you like your goalkeepers to do, so I think it’s only fair I be given the opportunity'. He said 'of course you’ll be given the opportunity, but…'. As soon as there are any buts at the end you know there’s a decision."

Compared to Joe Hart, DDG was a top ball playing GK (funny thing is that when Sven Goran Eriksson took over Man City, their starting GK was Swedish National Team star Andreas Isaksson, who SGE felt was so bad with his feet that he decided to not give him a chance in favor of Kasper Schmeichel and Joe Hart). Joe Hart just did not have what Guardiola must get from his GK.

To the same extent -- is it not very obvious that Harry Maguire is not a fit at CB for ETH? I think so. Then the relevant question becomes -- why the heck is he still here? Again, its 2023. It is downright remarkable that someone, anyone, thought that Maguire could be a good idea for ETH's style. How far is it from say someone thinking Usain Bolt would be a top striker in the Premier League? Its like early in WW1 when people sent in the cavalery (on horses) against machine guns in trenches. To be brutally honest, anyone thinking that Maguire might be a good idea for ETH must -- from my point of view -- be completely disattached to what works in the game of football today. And this obviously applies to our -- current -- management.

And this is not a knock on Harry Maguire per se. Joe Hart went on to play for Inter Milan IIRC. But you cannot squezze a square peg into a round hole at the highest level.
 

Frosty

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Anyone was surprised at "how good" Sevilla was last night? Both offensively and defensively?

This is 100% the reason for it. Sevilla dropped down and defended very deep with 11 players. The problem when you do that is that it can become really hard to get up field once you win the ball. But we did not take advantage of that at all in any way shape or form. This is the two Sevilla players furthest up the pitch. Lindelof and Maguire are what 30 ft from them and sprints home at full speed. This happened all night. All Sevilla needed to do was poke a ball loose and they could go on the attack undisturbed. I can easily find 20 similar pictures, and I have to question how ETH handled this issue.

But anyway -- we can say what we want about Lindelof and Maguire. But this is what you get from bad coaching. Lindelof and Maguire have (a) played like this for many many years and (b) they have never played up from the back. Lindelof has played many many games for Sweden -- you can't find a football team that plays up less from the back than Sweden in today's football.

From my point of view -- the big issue is not Maguire, but a deeper problem that will cause bigger issues. There have been talk on how executives in MUFC's transfer department are sceptical about listening too much to ETH expressing concerns along the line of: It will be very damaging for the club if you only hand pick players for him -- and the next coach want a different type of player. I mean, it is 2023, anyone who today forms some sort of educated opinion on what style is best -- for a top team -- in football, can see how playing up from the back and playing a high defensive line is the way to go. All top teams does it. But obviously, if you lived in football 24/7 for 20 years when something else was more effective -- the above just shows that you don't have to see it, you can be stuck in the past. And this is a big challenge for ETH.

When Pep took over Manchester City -- one of the biggest stars on that team was a well established starter for the English national team, GK Joe Hart. This is an direct account from Joe Hart on his first conversation with Pep:
It was a two-hour conversation that kind of ended with him [Guardiola] saying 'I can’t see this working'," Hart said. "He said 'I’ll be the first person to be proved wrong but what I see in you isn’t what I want from my goalkeeper'. "I was like 'it’s all very well saying that, but I’ve never been asked to do the kind of things I know you like your goalkeepers to do, so I think it’s only fair I be given the opportunity'. He said 'of course you’ll be given the opportunity, but…'. As soon as there are any buts at the end you know there’s a decision."

Compared to Joe Hart, DDG was a top ball playing GK (funny thing is that when Sven Goran Eriksson took over Man City, their starting GK was Swedish National Team star Andreas Isaksson, who SGE felt was so bad with his feet that he decided to not give him a chance in favor of Kasper Schmeichel and Joe Hart). Joe Hart just did not have what Guardiola must get from his GK.

To the same extent -- is it not very obvious that Harry Maguire is not a fit at CB for ETH? I think so. Then the relevant question becomes -- why the heck is he still here? Again, its 2023. It is downright remarkable that someone, anyone, thought that Maguire could be a good idea for ETH's style. How far is it from say someone thinking Usain Bolt would be a top striker in the Premier League? Its like early in WW1 when people sent in the cavalery (on horses) against machine guns in trenches. To be brutally honest, anyone thinking that Maguire might be a good idea for ETH must -- from my point of view -- be completely disattached to what works in the game of football today. And this obviously applies to our -- current -- management.

And this is not a knock on Harry Maguire per se. Joe Hart went on to play for Inter Milan IIRC. But you cannot squezze a square peg into a round hole at the highest level.
You have put a lot of effort into writing this and I commend you for it. All I will say is that in WW1 we have records of successful cavalry charges against machine guns and artillery. Which makes your arguments even more damning.
 

sunama

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That should be the last game he ever plays for this club. An absolute disaster and the worst signing in the club's history.
He'll continue playing for us.
And he'll continue wearing the captain's armband.
I don't think poor performances and standards should be rewarded, but that's the kind of club we've become.
 

wolvored

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I think we will attempt to move him on in the summer and for less than people think. We are not going to get £40 mill for him, it will be nearer £25-30 mill I reckon. If he refuses to go TH should say you will no longer be captain and be my 4th/5th choice CB. If we are to move on he should be one of the first to go, alongside Sancho, Martial and all the loaned out players
 

wolvored

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He'll continue playing for us.
And he'll continue wearing the captain's armband.
I don't think poor performances and standards should be rewarded, but that's the kind of club we've become.
If thats the case then TH would need to be looked at in a different light.
 

AlPistacho

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After he’s retired we will start getting “Just how crap was Harry Maguire” posts as opposed to the “Just how good was Beckham, Irwin, Giggs” etc
 

AlPistacho

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He'll continue playing for us.
And he'll continue wearing the captain's armband.
I don't think poor performances and standards should be rewarded, but that's the kind of club we've become.
There’s no other option this season than to play him. The armband is not important anymore. Everyone knows who leaders & real captains are and it’s not him. Removing the armband from him now just

1) causes unnecessary drama and demotivates a player we are forced to play
2) turns the media/pundits against ETH

In the summer he’ll get sold, or very likely loaned with option to buy. If not he’ll just become a Phil Jones.
 

Judas

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At this point he brings quite an immature and child like response from me, that’s the level of displeasure I get from seeing him play for us still, it pains me. It’s sad and depressing.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Right, I'm not saying he can play in any system or for any side, but reading this thread you'd think he's a league 2 player, and he's not. If wages were not an issue we'd have no problem finding a buyer.
When asked to play progressive, pressing, high line football he is not even league 2 quality.

I think he's prob worth about £35M max to a defensive Premier league side who play deep all the time.
 

Hughie77

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The guy will go to another club be absolutely great, and people be saying he wasn't like that at Utd, he didn't do that at utd he wasn't this or that at utd. Well he's been the fecking same in every club.

His cock ups are highlighted more as he plays for Utd. He's not a EtH CB he's in because of injuries, only. He has to be sold in Summer so EtH can get his guys in. And maybe Varane will become the back up guy who knows .. but anyway Maguire should be sold, and me for one is apprehensive of the remaining games as he has to play..
 

Valencia Shin Crosses

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At this point he brings quite an immature and child like response from me, that’s the level of displeasure I get from seeing him play for us still, it pains me. It’s sad and depressing.
Agree completely with this sentiment. It's gotten to the point that I know beforehand I won't have as good of a time watching us as I might normally have when I see he's starting.

It's like the annoying guy that hangs around that you aren't friends with but you know each other. Eventually every little thing the guy does pisses you off until you can't stand him anymore, even if it wasn't that big of a deal at the start. That's Maguire as a player.
 

Pintu

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And this is not a knock on Harry Maguire per se. Joe Hart went on to play for Inter Milan IIRC. But you cannot squezze a square peg into a round hole at the highest level.
No, he didn’t.. He spent the rest of his City contract on loan. First at Torino, relatively successful, but they couldn’t afford him without City paying most of his wages. And later at West Ham…

Seems to have found his level at Celtic. I really doubt Maguire could cut it over there.
 

Messier1994

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You have put a lot of effort into writing this and I commend you for it. All I will say is that in WW1 we have records of successful cavalry charges against machine guns and artillery. Which makes your arguments even more damning.
That is pretty cool, didn't know that, thanks! It is probably a bit of a cliché that those cavalary charges were extremely unsuccessful.
 

Bubba123

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At some point you have to ask, why does nearly everyone we buy become trash in just a few months. This isn't a "Maguire is shit" problem, it goes beyond that... you could say the same about almost any other signing we've made in the last 10 years
 

Messier1994

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My question is just -- who thought it was a good idea to give Harry Maguire a shot under ETH? You have a square peg for a round hole, who made the call to tried to force it in? That is kindergarden level of decision making.
 

Frosty

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My question is just -- who thought it was a good idea to give Harry Maguire a shot under ETH? You have a square peg for a round hole, who made the call to tried to force it in? That is kindergarden level of decision making.
If I had to have an educated guess - ETH has made the decisions, giving players he clearly thought needed to go enough chances this season to show they are not good enough, ensuring they are sold/released before the start of the second season. Also injuries and fatigue forced his hand.
 

Messier1994

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At some point you have to ask, why does nearly everyone we buy become trash in just a few months. This isn't a "Maguire is shit" problem, it goes beyond that... you could say the same about almost any other signing we've made in the last 10 years
The key to successful recruiting is 100% about being able to (a) give a player a role that suits the player really well and (b) in which the player can play to his strengths.

Lissandro Martinez has been a great signing. Tyler Malacia has been a great signing (despite the recent hick-up). Antony has been a great fit for us -- albeit we overpaid a lot to get him, at 60-70m he is a fantastic signing too. Why? These guys get to play to their strengths in roles that suits them.

Compare this to the decision to 'not get rid of Harry Maguire'. Which has been a tremendous disaster which directly cost us a really important European trophy. We have not been able to (a) give him a role that suits him and (b) in the role he has played, he instead have to apply the areas in which he is the weakest the most.

Why did Donny van de Beek bust? We didn't have a role for him under Ole, insanly naive signing. DVB had been sheltered under ETH in Ajax in a role in a somewhat limited role where he was instrumental to start the pressuring for his team and to cover a lot of ground to open up space when they had the ball -- but had very little responsibility on the ball.

Why did Sancho bust? Sancho is an artist with the ball, but he does need a lot of support on the pitch and won't contribute much without the ball. Ideally, Sancho fits the best on a really strong team in relation to the opponent, where he can get a free role and be the guy everything goes through without the ball. Sancho should in theory definitely be able to do OK under ETH -- but he have had other issues.

This is not rocket science and it puts the finger on just how incompetent this club has been run the last decade. I always supported Ole and liked what he did in terms of giving kids a shot to play and I also thought the project to become a more modern team in terms of style of play would take much much longer to implement that it has taken for ETH. But Ole's recruiting was extremely poor and he also has to take a lot of blame for just how poor guys like Maguire, Lindelof, McTominay and co are on the ball when we play up from the back, how Maguire-Lindelof plays an extremely low line and so forth. We coached players -- by today's standards -- have a much better foundation in these areas.

If I had to have an educated guess - ETH has made the decisions, giving players he clearly thought needed to go enough chances this season to show they are not good enough, ensuring they are sold/released before the start of the second season. Also injuries and fatigue forced his hand.
Maybe, but I don't really buy it. I don't think ETH needed that to evaluate some of these guys. I think he quickly understood that he needed to thread carefully around certain topics.
 

SAFMUTD

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Official espn account.

Translates as:

There's an offer in the Europa league, if you play against Manchester United and Maguire plays you get one goal FOR FREE!
 

buckooo1978

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Translates as:

There's an offer in the Europa league, if you play against Manchester United and Maguire plays you get one goal FOR FREE!
poor form that

So many outlets encouraging a pile on.

Id wonder about Maguire's mental health if this keeps up.

He had a decent performance against Forest after a very shaky start and the pressure he was under was immense as every touch was jeered

Only Maguire can shut people up
 

lsd

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I mean you do feel sorry for him but he really does bring it on himself with the stuff he comes out with only to then make the worst errors time and time again.

The move was far too big a step for him
 

NinjaZombie

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That worries me slightly. Guy didn't look right last night. Made numerous mistakes. Might still be injured or unfit.

The funny thing is, I was hopeful that even though he's not starting lineup material, Maguire could do a job as the 3rd and 4th centre back. That's been disproven by his performance at Sevilla.

In hindsight, a 3rd or 4th choice centre back ideally should be similar in style to the first choice centre backs so there's a smooth transition. Would also help if they didn't instill uncertainty in the whole team.
 

Bosws87

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The players have no trust in him, it’s clear to see bet there like us when his name appears on the team sheet.
 

Fobal

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He doesn't deserve it, because actually no player deserves it.

It goes since time beyond the reasonable, or occasional outburst, it's like an online constant bullying.
He might be a bad lad or good lad, whatever, but sometimes it's not even professional from media outlets and usually it's too much from us football fans, we tend to think this stuff does not matter much being pro footballers millionaires, but it does bother and I can imagine how disturbing this can be on everyday basis on anyone life.

Another issue is that if he deserves to be the Captain and a regular player in the squad given his current and past form, nope, he doesn't and he can be criticized if in some opinion or reaction he acts cocky to save face, yet the bullying in his case it reaches Higuain type of stuff that it's just too much.
 

RedBanker

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Official espn account.

Translates as:

There's an offer in the Europa league, if you play against Manchester United and Maguire plays you get one goal FOR FREE!
This can't be real surely? But this goes to show the entire world knows what we know, but behave as if we don't.
 

Crimson King

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Anyone was surprised at "how good" Sevilla was last night? Both offensively and defensively?

This is 100% the reason for it. Sevilla dropped down and defended very deep with 11 players. The problem when you do that is that it can become really hard to get up field once you win the ball. But we did not take advantage of that at all in any way shape or form. This is the two Sevilla players furthest up the pitch. Lindelof and Maguire are what 30 ft from them and sprints home at full speed. This happened all night. All Sevilla needed to do was poke a ball loose and they could go on the attack undisturbed. I can easily find 20 similar pictures, and I have to question how ETH handled this issue.

But anyway -- we can say what we want about Lindelof and Maguire. But this is what you get from bad coaching. Lindelof and Maguire have (a) played like this for many many years and (b) they have never played up from the back. Lindelof has played many many games for Sweden -- you can't find a football team that plays up less from the back than Sweden in today's football.

From my point of view -- the big issue is not Maguire, but a deeper problem that will cause bigger issues. There have been talk on how executives in MUFC's transfer department are sceptical about listening too much to ETH expressing concerns along the line of: It will be very damaging for the club if you only hand pick players for him -- and the next coach want a different type of player. I mean, it is 2023, anyone who today forms some sort of educated opinion on what style is best -- for a top team -- in football, can see how playing up from the back and playing a high defensive line is the way to go. All top teams does it. But obviously, if you lived in football 24/7 for 20 years when something else was more effective -- the above just shows that you don't have to see it, you can be stuck in the past. And this is a big challenge for ETH.

When Pep took over Manchester City -- one of the biggest stars on that team was a well established starter for the English national team, GK Joe Hart. This is an direct account from Joe Hart on his first conversation with Pep:
It was a two-hour conversation that kind of ended with him [Guardiola] saying 'I can’t see this working'," Hart said. "He said 'I’ll be the first person to be proved wrong but what I see in you isn’t what I want from my goalkeeper'. "I was like 'it’s all very well saying that, but I’ve never been asked to do the kind of things I know you like your goalkeepers to do, so I think it’s only fair I be given the opportunity'. He said 'of course you’ll be given the opportunity, but…'. As soon as there are any buts at the end you know there’s a decision."

Compared to Joe Hart, DDG was a top ball playing GK (funny thing is that when Sven Goran Eriksson took over Man City, their starting GK was Swedish National Team star Andreas Isaksson, who SGE felt was so bad with his feet that he decided to not give him a chance in favor of Kasper Schmeichel and Joe Hart). Joe Hart just did not have what Guardiola must get from his GK.

To the same extent -- is it not very obvious that Harry Maguire is not a fit at CB for ETH? I think so. Then the relevant question becomes -- why the heck is he still here? Again, its 2023. It is downright remarkable that someone, anyone, thought that Maguire could be a good idea for ETH's style. How far is it from say someone thinking Usain Bolt would be a top striker in the Premier League? Its like early in WW1 when people sent in the cavalery (on horses) against machine guns in trenches. To be brutally honest, anyone thinking that Maguire might be a good idea for ETH must -- from my point of view -- be completely disattached to what works in the game of football today. And this obviously applies to our -- current -- management.

And this is not a knock on Harry Maguire per se. Joe Hart went on to play for Inter Milan IIRC. But you cannot squezze a square peg into a round hole at the highest level.
You've basically highlighted how the club spent way too long dallying over appointing a Director of Football, or some such other person/team of people to oversee how signings fitted into a long term vision for the club's footballing ethos.

It's been mentioned many times before, but City made sure they had that structure in place before Pep arrived (those 2 chaps from Barca) and had already started to make signings that they knew suited his playing style. Or, at the very least, players that wouldn't look out of place at any side that wanted to play attacking, possession football. When he arrived they just continued with that, starting with jettisoning Hart.

Even clubs like Brentford and Brighton have had great success by using data models to sign players that fit a specific style of play. Look how easy De Zerbi was able to just come in after Potter and continue what he'd started.

For years we resisted that idea, probably because Woodward is a complete megalomaniac, and have only just now started to adopt that approach. Although, it still feels half hearted having appointed an internal yes man like Murtough, but it's probably too early to say whether or not he's been a success yet.
 

TsuWave

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Official espn account.

Translates as:

There's an offer in the Europa league, if you play against Manchester United and Maguire plays you get one goal FOR FREE!
I mean, they're not lying :lol:
 

lsd

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Official espn account.

Translates as:

There's an offer in the Europa league, if you play against Manchester United and Maguire plays you get one goal FOR FREE!

They totally underestimate him. It's way more than one goal
 

Chesterlestreet

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About the DDG versus Maguire debate:

A veteran goal keeper, a defence leader (which DDG should be) doesn't do that. It's too risky given the situation (and assessing the situation does involve assessing your own ability on the ball, and the ability of your team mate to deal with what you're kicking at him).

A veteran CB, a defence leader (which Maguire should be), doesn't signal for the pass. It's too risky given the situation (similarly, this involves not only reading the situation as such, but also considering your own ability to deal with it).

It's pretty much pointless to debate who of them is most to blame. But if you're interested in that sort of (essentially pointless) detail, I would say that without knowing precisely what instructions were involved (I doubt very much that ETH instructed DDG to play it short to a team mate, no matter what, in that sort of situation), DDG is clearly the main culprit. It should be feckin' obvious to him that...no, you don't play that sort of pass to anyone in this United team, and certainly not to Maguire. Even if he stupidly signals he's available for a pass (players do that all the time).
 

pratyush_utd

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I believe he was at fault for the goal and have been vocal against him for some of his mistake but this mocking has gone beyond what football fans can call as banter.

Point out what he could have done or what mistake he did but literally making him punchline for every football joke is not correct. Plus this constant booing he is receiving every game (home and away) is bewildering as he is not one to rile up the crowd.
For his sake, he should leave in summer and probably leave the captaincy right away voluntarily.
 

norm87cro

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No because he is simply not good enogh but not the root of our problems. He should joint Moyes at West Ham or a mid table club where there will be non of this kind of abuse.
 

Rayman96

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ETH isn't going to change the captaincy issue mid-season. On the off chance that Maguire is still here next season he'll definitely drop down the pecking order, but we'll have to put up with it for the rest of this season.
Its hardly mid season. Its nearly May :lol:
 
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