Because only an idiot would put kids in to a playground and not tell them the rules first.
Is LVG the best coach at developing youth players in recent times?
- Thread starter Rozay
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Mourinho would have just padded out the squad. Like someone else said, van Gaal trimmed the squad so that there'd be a greater chance of youth getting games. Yes, he starts the same XI when fit bar a couple of changes due to form/injuries like Lingard becoming a starter and Fellaini playing but so does Mourinho, and if Mourinho was here, the younger players wouldn't have got that many games as squad players like Evans would probably still be here.
He's not been afraid to give some very talented young players a chance over the years and I'm pretty sure his rigid demeanor can be helpful for players with little experience. Maybe his approach is the best way to help them learn something.
But when I see a name like Xavi getting brought up I cringe for a second. One of the most talented midfielders the modern era has had, what can a coach do? Give him a chance and give him some confidence, that's about it as far as I can see. Just look at the video from his debut, it was all there already aged 18. And this goes for many of the top talents some people give him credit for.
In a way you can also say he's at least as selfish as someone like Mourinho, look at the state we're in thanks to the philosophy and the decision to use a lean squad with the anticipation of using many young players, for no other apparent reason than being able to say young academy players have been given a chance. God knows how much this shambles season will cost us in the long run.
But when I see a name like Xavi getting brought up I cringe for a second. One of the most talented midfielders the modern era has had, what can a coach do? Give him a chance and give him some confidence, that's about it as far as I can see. Just look at the video from his debut, it was all there already aged 18. And this goes for many of the top talents some people give him credit for.
In a way you can also say he's at least as selfish as someone like Mourinho, look at the state we're in thanks to the philosophy and the decision to use a lean squad with the anticipation of using many young players, for no other apparent reason than being able to say young academy players have been given a chance. God knows how much this shambles season will cost us in the long run.
So now we are going to give credit to LVG and applaud him for sacrificing:
-Trophies
-Champions league football
-Enjoyable football
-Dignity and pride as a top club
so he could play some 20 year olds in the squad ?
Seriously ?
In my opnion a coach can only be regarded as successful with developing young players if he actually manages to be successful with young players. The only thing LVG manages is to be highly unsuccessful with young players. You could give him some credit if some of those young players were gems in the making and he developped them as players but most of those young players are average at best. The exception of Martial, Shaw and maybay Memphis isn't one I'am going to make because we paid top dollar to get them. Martial came with the pricetag of an absolute super star, that he'd be playing decent football is the very least you could expect when you blow 80 million out window. Don't see why LVG should get any credit for that at all, the best youngsters were bought and not brought up from our academy and it costed a shitload of money to get them.
-Trophies
-Champions league football
-Enjoyable football
-Dignity and pride as a top club
so he could play some 20 year olds in the squad ?
Seriously ?
In my opnion a coach can only be regarded as successful with developing young players if he actually manages to be successful with young players. The only thing LVG manages is to be highly unsuccessful with young players. You could give him some credit if some of those young players were gems in the making and he developped them as players but most of those young players are average at best. The exception of Martial, Shaw and maybay Memphis isn't one I'am going to make because we paid top dollar to get them. Martial came with the pricetag of an absolute super star, that he'd be playing decent football is the very least you could expect when you blow 80 million out window. Don't see why LVG should get any credit for that at all, the best youngsters were bought and not brought up from our academy and it costed a shitload of money to get them.
That's the crux of it, I suppose.
The question is what LVG's remit actually is. If he was hired, with little or no expectations of short term impact, to build up an ideal squad – over three years – for his successor to eventually make use of, then we're not in a position to judge his effort...yet. Everything he's done may – yet – pay off.
That's the extreme take on it some of his disciples seem to prefer.
If, on the other hand, what he was supposed to do was to oversee a period of transition while at the same time keep us there or thereabouts for a club of our stature, well...he hasn't impressed anyone in the slightest. Other than said disciples – who are at liberty to jump back and forth between present/tangible and future/intangible as it suits them.
this thread is exactly the sort of thing we used to make fun of liverpool for. outrageously low expectations and OTP praise for slightly above meaningless wins.
we beat shrewsbury and came from behind to beat some danish team nobody had heard of before in the EUFA CUP, ffs.
we beat shrewsbury and came from behind to beat some danish team nobody had heard of before in the EUFA CUP, ffs.
Eric Harrison says hello
Some of these kids have been playing in much bigger games this season too, though. We outplayed and drew with Chelsea at Stamford Bridge with a side featuring Borthwick-Jackson and Lingard, the former impressing and the latter scoring a wondergoal for the opener.
No-one is claiming the recent wins mean anything in particular, but LVG's use of youngsters does mean something and it's been a consistent trend this season.
Exactly
Weakening the squads numbers, and putting the clubs season in serious danger so he could play random young players, weather they are good enough or not, is playing Russian roulette at its finest. There is a huge different in developing players, and just throwing random young players in the team because of injuries, is 2 completely different entities all together. One win against some poor European club does not all of a sudden make him the best coach at developing players, it just makes him a manager having no choice and once again reality will strike everyone sunday. If fans would rather this that its awesome giving random youngsters a chance, who may never make it, while in the real world we continue to decline at a horrible rate. Yea lets weaken the squad's depth, with so many games piling up to play random academy players, yea good management there
It's difficult to properly know when it appears he has been forced to play them.
That said, Ferguson would play senior players in wildly inappropriate players rather than use a youth player, so it can't be dismissed altogether.
That said, Ferguson would play senior players in wildly inappropriate players rather than use a youth player, so it can't be dismissed altogether.
By the way, Leonardo Jardim is doing a fine job with youth players. And Nice have the youngest team in Europe.
Yes, but he didn't do that very often. And his overall results justified his approach. He also regularly gave chances to academy products/youths in a clear attempt to - say - avoid having to bring in expensive, established players. According to many on here Fergie gave far too many chances to a certain category of player - rather than doing what the same people wanted him to do, viz. to dip into the market.
LBJ only played because there were literally four other players LVG would sooner put there (shaw, blind, rojo, young), but all were unavailable.
and lingard, while scoring a nice goal in that game is not of a particular high quality... nevermind the fact that he's 23. at what point does the word "youth" no longer apply?
Yes, it does: that we had an unprecedented defensive injury crisis.
Shaw, Rojo, Blind, Young, Darmian - all played at LB before he was forced to introduce CBJ. Tell me a game where he started when any of those guys were fit? It was Blackett who went to the States not CBJ or Riley.
Darmian, Valencia, Young - have all started at RB when fit. Varela only came into the picture when all of them were out or Darmian had to play LB.
VG said in Decemeber that these guys are too young and we may need to get some players for our defense in the Jan window, and then we tried to get Debuchy on loan.
Martial, Fellaini and Rooney all started or rotated up top and Wilson didn't get many chances and was eventually loaned out. Rashford introduction wasn't because of some grand design to give youth a chance.
Our two most talented youngsters - Januzaj and Pereira - haven't gotten much of a look in; Januzaj was in fact loaned out even when we were desperately short of attackers.
McNair, our RB for the next 10 years, hardly gets a look in.
The only player who you can has gotten a look in is Lingard.
That's true. The poor old youth development guys cant win with him. In all fairness the class of 92, the Barcelona guys, the Ajax players were all credited to the academies to be fair. Tis why many claimed United have a strong youth academy and also La Masia and Ajax's academies are famed. Had all of real Madrids prospects stayed there to develop and not been sold off, theres might get a mention too
Those players weren't simply thrown in. Scholes was in and around the first team for 2 years by '95 & Giggs for around 4 years. Only Becks was very raw but still had a loan spell and appearances the previous season. Plus, they had many experienced professionals and leaders in the team to guide them through.
There was planning involved in Fergie's introducing the Class of '92; it wasn't a maverick approach like VG has adopted the last two years.
Firstly, Shaw is himself a young player. And LVG has chosen on several occasions already to play youngsters at fullback ahead of Young and indeed Blind this season, so that point doesn't stand up.
Lingard is a product of our academy who is in his first real season as a first-teamer. If he was 28 that might not mean anything but for a kid who was incredibly tiny until he hit 20, I'd say he more than qualifies as a 'local youth product'.
And like so many others on this forum, you seem to be missing that the reason injuries are 'forcing' LVG into introducing youngsters is because he deliberately reduced the size of the squad because that's how he likes it. Throughout his career his approach has always been to have a small pool of senior players, without too many fringe seniors sitting on the bench every week, and then if injuries require he calls on youngsters from the academy. He couldn't have predicted he'd have quite so many injuries and need to dig quite so deep into the academy - Riley replacing CBJ, for example, or Rashford having to come in with Keane and Wilson both injured or absent - but he deliberately set this team up so that youngsters would have room to feature.
I'm not sure about the OP question, but what I am sure its that he's got incredible belief in youth. Much more than the regular manager today.
Sometimes it works (Ajax) , sometimes its misguided(Kraft v Neur).
But its ballsy on his part. Nothing is stopping him from playing senior players out of position, more often than not, he just seems to be willing to take a chance with youngsters.I'll give him plaudits for that.
Sometimes it works (Ajax) , sometimes its misguided(Kraft v Neur).
But its ballsy on his part. Nothing is stopping him from playing senior players out of position, more often than not, he just seems to be willing to take a chance with youngsters.I'll give him plaudits for that.
Shaw, Rojo, Darmian, Young and Blind have all played at LB. Which other senior player can play that position?
Who else can play RB besides Valencia, Young & Darmian?
Which senior players are even on the bench who can start in those positions?
That would be true if started or rotated players in attack where we were short in numbers. But Wilson didn't get a look in, Januzaj for loaned out, Pereira doesn't even come off the bench much often.
Let's give him credit for things that he may have done, but let's not manufacture things to make this failure sound less dramatic.
So much of the above is simply bollocks.
- Varela has started at least once at LB when Darmian was fit. He might not be first choice yet, but there's certainly no indication that he's likely to slip behind either Young or Valencia in the pecking order when they return to fitness.
- Similarly, CBJ has been playing at LB in games when Blind and Young were both fit. Ok, again, he might be third choice behind Shaw and Rojo, but he's certainly not been denied the chance to stake his claim, and he's doing it. Let's not forget that Fergie chose to partner Park and Fabio in midfield over Pogba, who at the time was much further along in his development than Riley, Rashford or CBJ were this season. LVG's approach is wildly different.
- Wilson and Januzaj didn't get many chances, I'd agree with you there. But Januzaj was loaned to Dortmund because Van Gaal gave him the choice and that was what he wanted to do. He certainly wasn't shipped out against his will.
- Pereira certainly has got chances, but of course they've been more limited than some of the young fullbacks because we've not suffered injuries to the players he's in competition with: Mata, Herrera, Lingard and Depay. No-one's suggesting LVG is some madman who drops experienced, quality senior players for no reason.
- McNair isn't getting a look-in because Varela is outperforming him. 'LVG isn't playing Academy Graduate 1, who he promoted and played a lot last season, because Academy Graduate 2, who he promoted and is playing a lot this season, is better' isn't a very good argument against LVG's youth credentials. Quite the opposite. The same argument applies to Lingard and Pereira - if we've got academy graduates competing with each other for places in the first team, clearly he's doing a good job of getting them promoted and involved.
Most importantly, you're missing the obvious point, which I've had to write out on here about four times now, that the reason LVG is using youngsters to replace injured players is because he's set our squad up that way. He shipped out a lot of senior squad players and reduced the size of our squad so that there would be opportunities, whether through injury or rotation, for youngsters to come in instead of mid-career bench-warmers who were never going to be good enough to become regulars.
I think that he is.
It's not.
Did he not get this opportunity when they were injured? We tried to offload him last summer, what more proof do we need that he wasn't in the plans when the season started. We sent him to Real with a buyout clause.
Ahead of them when they were fit? Or did they have to play at CB and RB in the same game? He is not third choice, he was the 6th choice behind the players I mentioned. If all those players were injured or needed in other positions, which other senior player would you have started at LB? If you noticed our bench, we hardly have any senior players on the bench these days.
Van Gaal gave him a choice on where he wanted to go, not on if wanted to go out on loan or stay here.
He hasn't got many chances. For one of our top youngsters he didn't even get starts in games against shit opposition.
You don't think we could have rotated those players to give a talented youngster a chance? Martial played every game since he came here before he had to pull out. Same with Rooney or Mata.
McNair isn't getting a look in because he has gone backwards in his development. He has looked more shocking at RB then he has at CB.
No, he is using most of them in defense, where we have suffered most of the injuries. He doesn't rotate the attack much, even when we are so short in numbers.
We also got knocked out of Champions league because we decided to sell those "mid-career bench-warmers". As much as I loved watching Rashford and Riley last night, I would rather have had us play a night before in another competition and be sitting 6 points ahead of the 4th placed team in the league.
Really want us to offer him a position within the academy in the Summer.
This pretty much sums it up. There was no buyout clause, that was only ever just a rumour. And yes, his debut was due to injury but he's played games since then - Derby, for example - when Darmian wasn't injured. I'm not claiming he's already replaced Darmian, but clearly LVG has proven that he's willing to reward a youngster for an impressive performance by letting them keep their spot for another game or two. Clearly he's not going to be behind Valencia and Young in the pecking order.
Direct quote from Van Gaal: 'I wanted to play him in the Premier League, but he chose Borussia Dortmund.'
Not while other positions were struck by injury, no. He's certainly had minutes on the pitch, but only an idiot would have, for example, dropped Mata or Herrera yesterday to 'give a talented youngster a chance' when so many other youngsters were already on the pitch by necessity. We're in the middle of an injury crisis, and he's allowing youngsters to fill a lot of the gaps but he's not going to deliberately create more gaps just so that every single youngster can start every single game. Pereira has had plenty of minutes considering he plays in the position where we've had all our first-teamers available.
So what? The argument is whether LVG gives kids chances and lets them play. Last season, he surprised everyone by giving McNair loads of game time, trusting him and Blackett instead of signing another CB. This season, McNair's not played so well, so he's given Varela a lot of game time. You don't have a leg to stand on here!
Again, what's that got to do with the argument in hand. We're not debating whether or not it's a good idea, we're debating whether or not Van Gaal uses a lot of kids, and clearly he does, and for the reason you've quoted there it's something he's made more likely by choosing to trim the senior squad. He's chosen to do this.
/ thread.
It was widely reported that Madrid had a buy option post his loan, which did not want to exercise. Wasn't Darmian coming off an injury and did not have match rhytm? Even if not, then what made him replace him with Darmian again if he was doing so well?
He definitely will be behind Valencia in the pecking order. And we'll find that out in a weeks time.
“I have said to Januzaj that I will give him opportunities in the position of nine and maybe of 10,” van Gaal told reporters. “I have done that and then decided that, no, it would be better for him to go to another environment, maybe he will play more with them than me and we can see if he develops himself.
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...t-on-loan-and-possible-James-Wilson-deal.aspx
Sorry.
He couldn't start at Strewsbury? Or games against lower league opposition before that? We haven't had this injury crisis the entire season. He didn't even come off the bench on many occasions; Afroman was the preferred choice.
Anyway, all I saying is that this youth development has so far been restricted to injury crisis.
The title of the thread is "Is LVG the best coach at developing youth players in recent times?"
He did a buy a CB, Rojo; too bad he was injured for the most part. We also had Smalling, Jones and Evans. This term he tried to buy Ramos and has played Blind at CB.
I am afraid I am standing on both legs.
He clearly does when he needs to, it's not a plan to integrate them into the first team. He likes a small squad and doesn't rotate much, and that so far has worked like a charm in this league, isn't it?
Majority of these players would never get any minutes if there wasn't for this massive injury crisis. I am pretty sure van Gaal never expected anyone from our debutants from recent weeks to debut this season at all. Actually, even more developed players like Wilson and Keane didn't get any chance because players in their position never got injured(Rooney and Martial). People are crying for months for Perreira to play and van Gaal needed around 20 player to end up injured to give him a chance, despite players in his position being crap for an entire season.
Van Gaal getting so much credit for this is ridiculous, there are just few examples when he gave our youth players a chance when he had other options.
Van Gaal getting so much credit for this is ridiculous, there are just few examples when he gave our youth players a chance when he had other options.
I don't understand how many times the obvious needs to be explained. So what if an injury crisis has gotten them games? The point is that the injuries go Rashford games, not Chicharito or Nani etc. That is the choice of the manager.
It seems that people are saying because he didn't start the season saying his first XI includes a bunch of kids, he obviously didn't plan to use any.
And players are at different stages in their development. Wilson and Keane needed to play weekly, and are not good enough to do that now. The likes of CBJ didn't need regular league football, he could then be kept around as cover to continue his education.
All this talk of necessity. Regan Poole is 17 and made his debut, in a situation where Van Gaal's hand was not forced. It was a surprise to many that he's been brought into the squad, as much as many of the debutant's surprised us. Injuries or no injuries, most of these call-ups were not expected by us, so he could have easily done what we considered to be the obvious and play someone else. I doubt many thought - 'ah, obviously we'll have Poole on the bench next week, we've got some injuries.'
Nobody is asking anyone to like Van Gaal, it is obvious that many do not. He clearly likes working with young players though and has done great for many of our kids, who I'd bet at least 50% of whom would not have made a match day squad under a different manager.
In his own words he played rash ford because he had no other choice, he picked CBJ because of warren Joyce and he had no one else. He tried to buy Ramos, he even tried to buy debuchy, if first team players are fit they play no matter which competition it is, he doesn't rotate, he doesn't give youngsters a chance even when first team players are playing poorly.
There has been no design or intent to these players playing, it is Only because the squad is a couple of players short and there has been a really big injury crisis. If he keeps his job will he tell Woodward he doesn't need to sign anyone now? When players return from injury will he bring them straight into the side?. I think we all know the answers to those questions.
He deserves no credit for basically making a mess of things and having to rely on the academy, for someone who is supposedly building foundations this week his job has been saved by the foundations of SAF.
Only thing none of us know is how influential or beneficial he is or will be to these players now they are featuring in his team, it might well be by accident but maybe his coaching will help develop them, maybe it won't, none of us know enough either way.
There has been no design or intent to these players playing, it is Only because the squad is a couple of players short and there has been a really big injury crisis. If he keeps his job will he tell Woodward he doesn't need to sign anyone now? When players return from injury will he bring them straight into the side?. I think we all know the answers to those questions.
He deserves no credit for basically making a mess of things and having to rely on the academy, for someone who is supposedly building foundations this week his job has been saved by the foundations of SAF.
Only thing none of us know is how influential or beneficial he is or will be to these players now they are featuring in his team, it might well be by accident but maybe his coaching will help develop them, maybe it won't, none of us know enough either way.
This experiment makes sense only if at least several from these young players go on to become brilliant players for United and form the spin of a new great team. It's not likely to happen though. First, I don't think that they are special talents. It is one thing to have several good games, it is a completely different thing to develop into a high quality player. Januzaj was brilliant for several months, now his futute is very uncertain... Second, if it is true that Mourinho is going to be our manager next season, he isn't going to use them anyway. Unless some wonder happens and we win EL, this season will be regarded as a failure that made the return to normal business ( United having a top top team), even more difficult than it was before.
Well if he kept the likes of Welbeck, Evans, Cleverley, etc. we would have much better squad and we would still have players from our academy playing for us, so I seriously don't see more advantage in playing the likes of Love, Rashford, etc. in two games per season over having bit older academy graduates who are already good squad players and could be useful over an entire season, not just in couple of games. Giving youth players debuts is always great, but it would have never happened if van Gaal had actually good plan for a season ahead because quite obviously we are well short on players. Even if we kept those players I mentioned, youth players could still have chance to get their debuts.
He was just forced to play them, nothing else, he doesn't deserve much credit for that. He is basically being praised because his planning for this season has been terrible.
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I'll keep this simple because your lazy OP and downright offensive SAF generalization bugged the hell out of me and these discussions are going on in a few other threads.
If this season ends without top four and without any silverware, the decision to trim the squad was a mistake. You can't go around saying that he trimmed the squad and how great is when ultimately the team completely fails and it costs you the job as manager. So far, it is looking that way.
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For such a 'matter of fact' tone that you took to start off your post, you didn't half talk a load of irrelevance.
The fact that LVGs decisions may well cost us a place in the top 4 has nothing to do with whether or not he has been good for the youth, and nothing to do with my post you seem to abhor so much. You should take your general dissatisfaction towards LVG to a thread that actually discusses that, there are many.
After all, if City win the league having taken the opposite approach, then that can't be said to be the 'wrong' approach. That said, it also can't be used as a testament to Pellegrini's blooding of kids. See, two separate topics.
Really grinds my gears how he was more or less tossed out with the garbage after captaining the 21's to two in three PDL titles. He was definitely ready to step up and get a chance to show what he had, then that MK Dons dumpster fire.
You can also add Ben Pearson and Tom Lawrence to that list imo.
People will attack me for this but I think Moyes is one of the best managers around when it comes to giving young players a chance and developing young players.
precisely. i can't see how this isn't patently obvious to everyone.
Agree with those saying it's been because he had no choice and to be honest, people saying 'yeah but he trimmed the squad' are just clutching at straws I feel. As if LVG sat with his Sudoku notepad and planned to throw in youth players against Wolfsburg, Bournemouth, Sunderland or other games that have cost us this season.
Almost all young players rely on injuries/luck/necessity in order to get their break in first team so I don't know why people are acting like this is a new thing. Most of the class of 92 got their break because of the foreigners rule in Europe. They took their chances and convinced Ferguson to sell on some of the older players to make room for them. Van Gaal said at the start of the season that he preferred to have a smaller squad and rely on the youth players as back up rather than having older players hanging around as back up so he at least deserves some credit for providing the environment where these players are training full time with the first team squad and getting chances due to injuries. Of course people will say that he trimmed the squad too much but its pretty much impossible to plan for so many injuries and multiple injuries to players in the same position at the same time and whats to say a more experienced player who has spent most of the season as back up would perform any better than these young, hungry players have.
The philosophy is about repetition, reason , structure, rules, roles. The focus on system rather than flair and creativity means that excellent players can be curtailed and become disillusioned but that good, intelligent, well drilled players who are happy to fulfil a role for the team can excel. This provides a perfect platform for the development of youth as they have to comply rather than excel.
Credit to Van Gaal, he does better than most in this regard but I think he does not do it of his free will for United. The amount of youngster we see playing at United is by fact based on coincidence and I doubt with a fully fit squad, many of them will not see the light on the pitch at United.
You just have to look at his past when we did have a fully fit team. He continued to shoehorn Falcao, Van Persie and Rooney together when they were not a productive partnership. Same argumet can be presented with the abundant numbers of midfielders he bought in. He had to find a way to shoehorn Blind in Centerback just to fit him into our squad and have many senior midfielders on 100k plus a week warm the bench.
You have to take into context what Van Gaal has done at United when he is not presented with such a massive amount of injuries. And in regards to playing and developing youngster, it is barely remarkable.
Mauricio Pochettino does this aspect head and shoulders better than Van Gaal and he actually still plays his youth when he has a full fit squad. Moreover, his development of these players are going to be unrivaled with the way some of his youth players are playing at the moment.
You just have to look at his past when we did have a fully fit team. He continued to shoehorn Falcao, Van Persie and Rooney together when they were not a productive partnership. Same argumet can be presented with the abundant numbers of midfielders he bought in. He had to find a way to shoehorn Blind in Centerback just to fit him into our squad and have many senior midfielders on 100k plus a week warm the bench.
You have to take into context what Van Gaal has done at United when he is not presented with such a massive amount of injuries. And in regards to playing and developing youngster, it is barely remarkable.
Mauricio Pochettino does this aspect head and shoulders better than Van Gaal and he actually still plays his youth when he has a full fit squad. Moreover, his development of these players are going to be unrivaled with the way some of his youth players are playing at the moment.