Is Pogba as good as gone?

[worldgonemad]

I think he's as good as gone . A really talented player , but i was surprised you guys bought him back from Juve when he'd already left once . fergie had it right in letting him go . Since he came back there seems to have been a circus surrounding him for one thing or another ( not sure its all down to him , but hes has opportunities to quel the media storm at times and passed on the opportunity ) In some ways he reminds me of ballotelli in that he does have bags of talent but seems to be wrapped up in ego and surrounded by people with their own interests at heart . For all the undoubted talent he has , i genuinley cant think of another top 6 club in the premier league who would take him into their team . I would imagine ole will do a dance of joy when he goes , regardless of the money he sells for .

As an aside , i cant understand how his value has potentially gone up since he signed . What has he done to convince other clubs hes a safe investment or a player who is improving ?

 

[Litch]

I wouldn't argue the generational talent tag. That level of ability is why he has taken so much criticism, some have attributed it to personality, haircuts, race, but when you have the gifts that he has, can be the best midfielder in the world and only really show it in flashes it will bring a reaction.

I don't feel sorry for him, the club is bigger than the individual, and with his wages, fame and ability expecting more from him is to be expected.

Agree. Like said, its always easier to show your ability in a team game when others are of a similar ability or just below it. Not comparing him to CR and Messi but irrespective of the uber world class ability, those teams were absolutely stacked with world class talent in all positions.

 

[Litch]

Maguire was never one of the best CB's in the league. Half the Caf agreed when we bought him that he was a modest upgrade, at best, on what we had.

Absolute rubbish. Maguire would walk into any of the top four teams in the league, one of which he played for anyway. Ok might not be worth 80m, but to say he was never one of the best CB in the league, you must have some kind of agenda.

 

[Bestietom]

Yes, it is only natural that a player will show better with top class stars around him in a team. But you can always pick out a good player/ trier in a bad team when the player wants/tries to perform.
Fernandes is doing this every week.

 

[RedNed77]

I think he's as good as gone . A really talented player , but i was surprised you guys bought him back from Juve when he'd already left once . fergie had it right in letting him go . Since he came back there seems to have been a circus surrounding him for one thing or another ( not sure its all down to him , but hes has opportunities to quel the media storm at times and passed on the opportunity ) In some ways he reminds me of ballotelli in that he does have bags of talent but seems to be wrapped up in ego and surrounded by people with their own interests at heart . For all the undoubted talent he has , i genuinley cant think of another top 6 club in the premier league who would take him into their team . I would imagine ole will do a dance of joy when he goes , regardless of the money he sells for .

As an aside , i cant understand how his value has potentially gone up since he signed . What has he done to convince other clubs hes a safe investment or a player who is improving ?

It hasn't. His fee at his age will be determined by what he's done not what he could theoretically do, he's nearly 27 ffs, yet peope are still talking about potential with him. WYSIWYG. I'd take £90m for him in a heartbeat.

 

[dev1l]

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[KekiZeki]

If he's actually injured again then it's terrible from our medical team. That's twice we've brought the same player back prematurely only to relapse once more.

Don't really know what to think on this one. Too much noise from Raiola for nothing to be happening here, my gut tells me. Weirdly, I don't really find myself all that bothered whether he leaves of not anymore. For too long he's been the best player 'talent-wise' in our squad. Unfortunately, we haven't seen enough of it.

The fact that we have to say "if he's injured" says everything really. Injured or not, the fact is that there is no trust between the fans and him, or club and him... or fans and club when it comes to him. Either way it creates an unhealthy atmosphere and is a major hurdle on what we want to build moving on. Terrible example for any youngsters breaking in. But he's a big name. Some think he can fetch 100 or more mil. I don't, but whatever it is, it should be decent enough offer for us to be able to sell this coming summer and move on. It's not often that I think this but money in the bank is starting to look better than the player himself.

 

[smi11ie]

I am sure he could have played more games if he wanted. I think he has been using the last few months to get himself into perfect physical condition for the summer. For me he hasn't done a lot since his return and he is probably a bad influence for the other wannabees. Will be glad when he goes. I prefer a "head down and get on with it" type like Scholes.

 

[Hambley]

Pogba had 2 quite decent seasons for us, but it's time for him to leave. He doesn't want to play for us anymore as he thinks he might had better partners and a better team overall, playing Cl every sesaon, winning cups etc. He just has no desire to play for us now. That's simple as that. And this is why he missed almost the whole season treating phantom injuries. I assume he tried to leave last summer but failed and he just waits for the end of the sesaon. The club gets its money and Paul gets his exit and the club he wants to play for. Both sides are satisfied. Despite the fact Paul is really a top player, he's not the one who can perform great consistently every match without same top partners, grinding results out of nothing. So I see 2 objective reasons why we should part with him as soon as possible. I have a thought that he came to us in the wrong time of "permanent rebuilding". Any another time he would suit us well but life's a cruel thing you know.

 

[sammsky1]

Generational talent in an era that's wrong for him and the club.

Yeah, right!

 

[Massive Spanner]

Absolute rubbish. Maguire would walk into any of the top four teams in the league, one of which he played for anyway. Ok might not be worth 80m, but to say he was never one of the best CB in the league, you must have some kind of agenda.

I don't. I said before we signed him that he wasn't much better than what we had so why would I have an agenda? Clearly I'm being proven right.

 

[Bobski]

Agree. Like said, its always easier to show your ability in a team game when others are of a similar ability or just below it. Not comparing him to CR and Messi but irrespective of the uber world class ability, those teams were absolutely stacked with world class talent in all positions.

True, but I think what has most disappointed people is the variable levels of effort and engagement, too often he has drifted through games. The consistent quality might not always be there, in some ways because of the quality around him but level of player around you should not lead to such wild swings in effort.

 

[devilish]

Perhaps, but you have shifted the goalposts to is one of the greatest teams in history better than another of the greatest teams in history? You began by working off the claim that 90s Serie A had quality running all through it, now you want us to only talk about Milan.

If we are going to do speculative history, isn't the idea that Pep's tiki-taka simply bewilders Milan and bypasses Rijkaard just before Iniesta pulls Baresi out of position so Messi can rifle into the corner just as likely? I would argue more so. Tactical innovation counts.

I made two separate arguments here.

A- That the Serie A of the time was the most competitive league in world history. I stick to that. You had top top players who could have played at any club in the world playing with mid level/small clubs like Napoli, Lazio, Udinese, Brescia and Fiorentina. I am referring to players like Maradona, Careca and Zola (Napoli), Gazza and Signori (Lazio), Zico (Udinese), Hagi (Brescia) and Baggio, Batistuta and Dunga (Fiorentina). These players would walk in the first team of any club. The situation was so ridiculous that it was normal for top players to flop in the Serie A (Rush, Pancev, Bergkamp etc) and for old/average players to leave the Serie A and do very well elsewhere (Ravanelli, Vialli, Blomqvist etc). It also took little for top clubs to find themselves in a silly situation (Inter few points away from the relegation zone, Juventus at 7th place) or for small clubs to win the league (Verona in 1984-85, Napoli the 1986-87, 1989-90, Sampdoria won the 1990-91 league). All you needed was 1 slip up, 1 bad signing, 1 injury and you're in trouble.

B- That the Milan of the time was slightly better then Peps. I believe that Barcelona would slightly win the battle in CM but their defence would soak in the extra pressure. I also think that Pique and Puyol stands as much chance of keeping Van Basten and Gullit in place as Jesse Lingard has to beat the crap out of Anthony Joshua.

 

[Litch]

True, but I think what has most disappointed people is the variable levels of effort and engagement, too often he has drifted through games. The consistent quality might not always be there, in some ways because of the quality around him but level of player around you should not lead to such wild swings in effort.

I think levels of effort is a bit of amisnomer and I think his playing style can often be interpreted in different ways. That's not to say he hasn't, cause I'm pretty sure it's been the case but not to anything like he same degree. I don't think it's too dissimilar to the stuff written about Tony.

 

[Rolaholic]

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[Bobski]

I think levels of effort is a bit of amisnomer and I think his playing style can often be interpreted in different ways. That's not to say he hasn't, cause I'm pretty sure it's been the case but not to anything like he same degree. I don't think it's too dissimilar to the stuff written about Tony.

To be fair Pogba's frame and size make it more difficult to play at a consistently high tempo, hard work keeping up with the terrier style midfielders when you are 6"3+.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

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Great to hear some fecking sense from a Utd old-boy for once!

Sharpe would understand a player like Pogba so much better than a tub thumping media muppet like Neville ever could - after all, he himself was a flair player who has experienced the spotlight at Old Trafford - and knows all the glories and pressures that being one of the creative players at that level brings.

 

[chromepaxos]

A- That the Serie A of the time was the most competitive league in world history. I stick to that.

Couldn't one make these same claims about the Premier League over the last decade?

You had top top players who could have played at any club in the world playing with mid level/small clubs like Napoli, Lazio, Udinese, Brescia and Fiorentina. I am referring to players like Maradona, Careca and Zola (Napoli), Gazza and Signori (Lazio), Zico (Udinese), Hagi (Brescia) and Baggio, Batistuta and Dunga (Fiorentina).

Aubameyang, Pogba, Kane, Sterling, Suarez, Moutinho, De Gea, Coutinho, just off the top of my head, all play/played for sides that hadn't won a league title in years, and that's not counting the superstars at City, Liverpool or Chelsea.

The situation was so ridiculous that it was normal for top players to flop in the Serie A (Rush, Pancev, Bergkamp etc) and for old/average players to leave the Serie A and do very well elsewhere (Ravanelli, Vialli, Blomqvist etc).

I don't think I even need to talk about the top players that move to the Premier League and fail, do I? Or the fact that Inter is currently gobbling up as many of our cast-offs as they can get?

It also took little for top clubs to find themselves in a silly situation (Inter few points away from the relegation zone, Juventus at 7th place)

So, just like we were a few points off the relegation zone earlier in the season, and how Arsenal are doing currently?

The reality is that in what you are describing as "the most competitive league in world history", Milan And Juve split the league between themselves for eight years straight through the 90s. Doesn't actually sound that competitive, does it? The decade of the 90s saw four different teams win Serie A, while it seems that we will see five different teams having won the PL this decade. And before the 90s, the only reason Napoli won a couple of titles was because of Diego - and one team having the GOAT is hardly illustrative of the overall strength of the league.

Where is the extraordinary competitiveness of which you speak?

 

[Red_toad]

Great to hear some fecking sense from a Utd old-boy for once!

Sharpe would understand a player like Pogba so much better than a tub thumping media muppet like Neville ever could - after all, he himself was a flair player who has experienced the spotlight at Old Trafford - and knows all the glories and pressures that being one of the creative players at that level brings.

Understand him better as he wasn’t a consummate professional? Sharp could have been a much better player, but was removed from the club due to his off field issues. Fergie knew how to create teams and I don’t believe he’d have ever repurchased Pogba, with his lovely agent as a secondary gift.
That said Pogba is an exceptional player and will probably do very well for his new club if he’s motivated and surrounded by a few more senior players who will call him out on his immaturity.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Understand him better as he wasn’t a consummate professional? Sharp could have been a much better player, but was removed from the club due to his off field issues. Fergie knew how to create teams and I don’t believe he’d have ever repurchased Pogba, with his lovely agent as a secondary gift.
That said Pogba is an exceptional player and will probably do very well for his new club if he’s motivated and surrounded by a few more senior players who will call him out on his immaturity.

Sharpe's career doesn't need to be flawless to order to offer insight on creative United players and their potentials...

He's not an idiot, he's a sharp guy (pun intended).

Indeed - I'd argue that Sharpe's own flaws in the past would probably deepen his understanding of certain situations in a player's career.

My over-arching point is that it's nice to hear a Utd old-boy actually saying something that isn't disruptive, negative or agenda driven about Pogba - who is, lest we forget, our best player when on form.

 

[devilish]

Couldn't one make these same claims about the Premier League over the last decade?



Aubameyang, Pogba, Kane, Sterling, Suarez, Moutinho, De Gea, Coutinho, just off the top of my head, all play/played for sides that hadn't won a league title in years, and that's not counting the superstars at City, Liverpool or Chelsea.



I don't think I even need to talk about the top players that move to the Premier League and fail, do I? Or the fact that Inter is currently gobbling up as many of our cast-offs as they can get?



So, just like we were a few points off the relegation zone earlier in the season, and how Arsenal are doing currently?

The reality is that in what you are describing as "the most competitive league in world history", Milan And Juve split the league between themselves for eight years straight through the 90s. Doesn't actually sound that competitive, does it? The decade of the 90s saw four different teams win Serie A, while it seems that we will see five different teams having won the PL this decade. And before the 90s, the only reason Napoli won a couple of titles was because of Diego - and one team having the GOAT is hardly illustrative of the overall strength of the league.

Where is the extraordinary competitiveness of which you speak?

The EPL is the closest thing to that depth but not quite. You mention Aubameyang, Pogba, Kane, Sterling, Suarez, DDG and Coutinho. However most of these players play with traditionally big clubs whom for some reason or another are having a bad patch. The Serie A of the time had world class players (some of whom way bigger then that) at mid or small size clubs. You had guys like Zico with Udinese, Hagi to Brescia, Laudrup, Dunga, Baggio and Batistuta with Fiorentina, Maradona and Careca with Napoli, Lazio (Gazza, Signori etc), Taffarel with Reggiana etc. That created a level of football were teams like Inter came just 1 point away from relegation despite having players like Zenga, Schillaci, Bergkamp, Bergomi, Sosa and Berti or Juventus going 7th. You also had successful players at top clubs elsewhere moving to small clubs (ex Hagi who moved from Real to Brescia) and players refusing to join top foreign clubs because they couldn't afford their salary (ex Batistuta at Fiorentina who refused to join us)

Believe it or not I am quite a critic of that style of football. Ultimately that league was the precursor of the Serie A of today as clubs in the mid 80s and mid 90s were too busy spending money on bringing in that WC player to the club then invest in proper infrastructure and the business side of the club. That lead to the vast majority of Serie A clubs going into the 2000s as glorified bloodsuckers who were totally dependent on the sugar daddies to maintain them. As football became too expensive for the average local multi millionaire to afford the Serie A's quality declined and some spectacular financial bust ups occurred from Lazio (who relied on Cirio) and Parma (who relied on Parmalat). This trend proceeded to hit the big clubs as well with both Berlusconi and Moratti being forced to sell to well, the owners they have today. That doesn't take anything from the argument though ie the Serie A of that period being the most competitive and tough league I've ever seen.

 

[chromepaxos]

The EPL is the closest thing to that depth but not quite. You mention Aubameyang, Pogba, Kane, Sterling, Suarez, DDG and Coutinho. However most of these players play with traditionally big clubs whom for some reason or another are having a bad patch. The Serie A of the time had world class players (some of whom way bigger then that) at mid or small size clubs. You had guys like Zico with Udinese, Hagi to Brescia, Laudrup, Dunga, Baggio and Batistuta with Fiorentina, Maradona and Careca with Napoli, Lazio (Gazza, Signori etc), Taffarel with Reggiana etc. That created a level of football were teams like Inter came just 1 point away from relegation despite having players like Zenga, Schillaci, Bergkamp, Bergomi, Sosa and Berti or Juventus going 7th. You also had successful players at top clubs elsewhere moving to small clubs (ex Hagi who moved from Real to Brescia) and players refusing to join top foreign clubs because they couldn't afford their salary (ex Batistuta at Fiorentina who refused to join us)
[...] That doesn't take anything from the argument though ie the Serie A of that period being the most competitive and tough league I've ever seen.

I don't think we are that far apart in our views however I think the parallels with the EPL are closer than you admit. You seem to regard only Juve and Milan as "big" teams, which facilitates the argument that so many superstars played for "mid or small size clubs". Without doing a deep comparison, I suspect that back in 1985 the histories of teams like Fiorentina, Napoli and Lazio were not that different to those of City, Chelsea and Spurs. If your claim is that the last 15 years has made those English clubs "big", then surely the same applies to 80s and 90s Serie A clubs?

A fairer methodology might be to take the top six or eight teams and look at how many star players they have. On that basis (and taking off the rose-tinted glasses which regard 90s players as world-class but 2010s players as merely very good) I say the EPL is at least as competitive, if not more so.

I think we are a golden age, tbh. I love 90s Serie A, don't get me wrong. But I think EPL football currently is actually amazing.

 

[devilish]

I don't think we are that far apart in our views however I think the parallels with the EPL are closer than you admit. You seem to regard only Juve and Milan as "big" teams, which facilitates the argument that so many superstars played for "mid or small size clubs". Without doing a deep comparison, I suspect that back in 1985 the histories of teams like Fiorentina, Napoli and Lazio were not that different to those of City, Chelsea and Spurs. If your claim is that the last 15 years has made those English clubs "big", then surely the same applies to 80s and 90s Serie A clubs?

A fairer methodology might be to take the top six or eight teams and look at how many star players they have. On that basis (and taking off the rose-tinted glasses which regard 90s players as world-class but 2010s players as merely very good) I say the EPL is at least as competitive, if not more so.

I think we are a golden age, tbh. I love 90s Serie A, don't get me wrong. But I think EPL football currently is actually amazing.

Not really. Fiorentina got relegated in 93-94 despite having players like Laudrup, Batistuta, Dunga, Branca and Effenberg in the team. They nearly got themselves relegated again in 89-90 despite having Roberto Baggio scoring goals left right and center. Between 85 and 95 the highest they got was 4th place while the lowest was well, 15th. In their history they only won the league twice once in the 50s and the other in the 60s. Napoli also won two leagues thanks to a certain Diego Armando Maradona. They had a positive run during Maradona's time but then dropped to 8th, 4th, 11th, 7th, 12th, 13th up until they got relegated in 97-98. Finally Lazio also won just 2 league titles one in the 70s and one in 1999-2000 which nearly bankrupted the club. Between 85 and 87 they were in the Serie B, then they spent 4 years flirting between 10th to 8th place and then they had a good run when they even got 2nd at one point. Chelsea alone won as many leagues as the three clubs combined.

I don't think there's alot of rose-tinted glasses here. I can't think of many (if any) EPL players who are at par to the likes of Baresi, Scirea, Van Basten, Maradona, Baggio, Batistuta and co. I mean if Maguire costed us 80m then imagine what the likes of Maldini and Baresi would cost, 300m maybe?

Ultimately as said before the situation the Serie A was at the time was unsustainable and lead to the crash in later years which is felt to this very day. So many clubs had imploded or are imploding till this very day including Lazio, Parma, Perugia, Napoli and Milan with the likes of Inter being among the near misses. The EPL is far less competitive than that Serie A but is far more sustainable which is a good thing. However the argument still stand between 85 and 95 the Serie A was the most competitive league in the world.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

So he might leave in the summer or stay and become a legend... the media haven’t a fecking clue themselves

 

[Haddock]

The EPL is the closest thing to that depth but not quite. You mention Aubameyang, Pogba, Kane, Sterling, Suarez, DDG and Coutinho. However most of these players play with traditionally big clubs whom for some reason or another are having a bad patch. The Serie A of the time had world class players (some of whom way bigger then that) at mid or small size clubs. You had guys like Zico with Udinese, Hagi to Brescia, Laudrup, Dunga, Baggio and Batistuta with Fiorentina, Maradona and Careca with Napoli, Lazio (Gazza, Signori etc), Taffarel with Reggiana etc. That created a level of football were teams like Inter came just 1 point away from relegation despite having players like Zenga, Schillaci, Bergkamp, Bergomi, Sosa and Berti or Juventus going 7th. You also had successful players at top clubs elsewhere moving to small clubs (ex Hagi who moved from Real to Brescia) and players refusing to join top foreign clubs because they couldn't afford their salary (ex Batistuta at Fiorentina who refused to join us)

Believe it or not I am quite a critic of that style of football. Ultimately that league was the precursor of the Serie A of today as clubs in the mid 80s and mid 90s were too busy spending money on bringing in that WC player to the club then invest in proper infrastructure and the business side of the club. That lead to the vast majority of Serie A clubs going into the 2000s as glorified bloodsuckers who were totally dependent on the sugar daddies to maintain them. As football became too expensive for the average local multi millionaire to afford the Serie A's quality declined and some spectacular financial bust ups occurred from Lazio (who relied on Cirio) and Parma (who relied on Parmalat). This trend proceeded to hit the big clubs as well with both Berlusconi and Moratti being forced to sell to well, the owners they have today. That doesn't take anything from the argument though ie the Serie A of that period being the most competitive and tough league I've ever seen.

Don't bother. I don't think a lot of posters can begin to appreciate a situation where players as good as Beppe Signori, Platt and Bierhoff were playing for the likes of Foggia, Samp and Udinese. A time when Beppe Signori is banging goal after goal in and wins three golden boots and no one remembers him now. Moratti was burning through money and getting nowhere while Sampdoria were bidding for Alan bloody Shearer.

Attempting to compare it to a situation where the mid table premier league clubs can and will have their prize assets seized within a season is so laughable you have to cringe. Literally the only comparable case of an player of the highest calibre at a mediocre club I can think of in the last decade was either Tevez/Mascherano at West Ham and Payet and neither stayed very long. Bloody Gabriel sodding Batistuta played for fecking Fiorentina who were relegated to Serie B when he was in his mid 20s and he stayed on for years.


There was nothing like it.

 

[cyril C]

It hasn't. His fee at his age will be determined by what he's done not what he could theoretically do, he's nearly 27 ffs, yet peope are still talking about potential with him. WYSIWYG. I'd take £90m for him in a heartbeat.

I would take a 3 instalments payment if necessary. Problem is WHO is going to fork out 90m cash for him? All RM said is to swap him for Bale or JR or anyone they don't need.... (and neither do we)

 

[Andrew Richmond]

Pogba want’s to go to Spain I have no doubt. I think we would be best served getting the best deal possible and move on from him. He has largely flattered to deceive and has been a destabilising influence in my opinion. Regardless of what he is capable of, we have rarely seen it on the field and are probably best off without him.

 

[RoyH1]

Pogba want’s to go to Spain I have no doubt. I think we would be best served getting the best deal possible and move on from him. He has largely flattered to deceive and has been a destabilising influence in my opinion. Regardless of what he is capable of, we have rarely seen it on the field and are probably best off without him.

I think he just as likely wants to go back to Italy or maybe even Paris. If I have to put money on his next clubs it's Juventus first and then PSG.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The only worry I'd have with him leaving would be how we'd use the funds.

If I didn't have that worry, I'd be completely indifferent to him leaving(or somehow staying).

 

[Denis' cuff]

Maguire was never one of the best CB's in the league. Half the Caf agreed when we bought him that he was a modest upgrade, at best, on what we had.

half the caf agreed fecking hell. who needs a manager?

poggers bro at it again... get rid of this disease and his brother and his agent.

Problem: nobody prepared to pay for him

mouthing off again. Got more value out of Djemba Djemba than this fraud. prefer Lingard.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

So went to fashion show in Paris this weekend but again nowhere close to watching the club that pays him an absolute fortune to play football.

He will be a legend @Ronaldo's ego - not for the reasons his fans want at united.

 

[Rolaholic]

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[FootyGirl88]

So went to fashion show in Paris this weekend but again nowhere close to watching the club that pays him an absolute fortune to play football.

He will be a legend @Ronaldo's ego - not for the reasons his fans want at united.

Where was McTominay? Didnt see him watching the game either, last i saw of him he was out having dinner with friends at a restaurant.

 

[Judas]

Fair isn't it. I think at this point everyone would be better off if Pogba leaves. Not that I trust us to spend whatever money we get for him, but I think we need to move on for everyones sake.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Where was McTominay? Didnt see him watching the game either, last i saw of him he was out having dinner with friends at a restaurant.

He hasn’t spent the last 4 months galavanting around the world.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

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Slightly different attitude to his recovery

 

[top1whoisman]

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Not saying that Evra shouldn’t have said ”maybe it’s time for Paul to leave” and defend his friend, but it’s interesting considering he’s an U18 coach at the club. Wonder if someone will have a word with him after those comments. Again, not saying someone should, but wouldn’t be suprised if they did.

 

[Bastian]

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Slightly different attitude to his recovery

Yeah, Pogba was the first thing I thought of when I read that too.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Yeah, Pogba was the first thing I thought of when I read that too.

Kinda think he’s having a dig there at a colleague rarely seen anymore.

 

[Bastian]

Kinda think he’s having a dig there at a colleague rarely seen anymore.

Yeah. I agree.