A very good basis to build on, what I explained in that post.
Is there anyone left who wants to defend lvg now?
- Thread starter golden_blunder
- Start date
I'm not asking for a back up player as good as those. I'm asking for options. Especially when our first choice was putrid for most of the season. We have had countless games this season with no striker on the bench. We've struggled to score goals. That's factual evidence for you. If you think our squad is fine in depth and quality you're deluded and in a tiny minority.
I have to agree with this. Squad depth is one of our biggest problems.
Then again it is all dependent on what van gaal is here for. If he is building a team for the future ( just today he mentioned how he would have been long gong before getting to see martials true potential); then keeping a squad of rafael, RVP & any other tom dick & harry he sold; would only get in the way of the youngsters like Mcbair, Borthwick, Valera, Martial, memphis & Pereira getting game time.
On the other hand you have pellegrinig someome who clearly does not mind playing youngsters - just about fitting ieanacho in to whatever game time he has left. Then again; i'm sure his targets are different to van gaal's - no matter how similar our fans wish for it to be.
No manager in the world gets the job (never mind at United) to 'build a team for the future'. This is ridiculous.
That was enjoyable last night.
Time to chill out and relax, no expectations for the rest of the season so players and fans might enjoy a stress free few months.
Time to chill out and relax, no expectations for the rest of the season so players and fans might enjoy a stress free few months.
On the matter of foundations, what has LVG really laid down? A good defence? I mean...we're alright, and Smalling is developing into the player we want to, but we still have a defence that often looks very exposed under pressure?
In midfield? Schweinsteiger and Carrick are both talented footballers, but both are clearly getting on and won't be here for too much longer. Fellaini shouldn't be a long-term option. Schneiderlin should hopefully be here for the long-term though, which is positive.
Up front? Martial's our only really promising talent at the moment. Even an improved Rooney is getting older. Lingard's alright, but unlikely to be much more than a squad player. Januzaj isn't getting a lot of game-time. I think that Mata has plenty of talent, but LVG has demonstrated that he's often unsure how/where to use him.
Overall, I'm not really sure as to what foundations LVG has been laying down. It's certainly not our playing style, which has mostly been dreadful. Unless we see the very idea of possession football, which is hardly some alien, out there concept, as a new one which LVG has remarkably introduced. Which isn't the case, especially when it's quite possible the next manager will ditch it for a new style.
In midfield? Schweinsteiger and Carrick are both talented footballers, but both are clearly getting on and won't be here for too much longer. Fellaini shouldn't be a long-term option. Schneiderlin should hopefully be here for the long-term though, which is positive.
Up front? Martial's our only really promising talent at the moment. Even an improved Rooney is getting older. Lingard's alright, but unlikely to be much more than a squad player. Januzaj isn't getting a lot of game-time. I think that Mata has plenty of talent, but LVG has demonstrated that he's often unsure how/where to use him.
Overall, I'm not really sure as to what foundations LVG has been laying down. It's certainly not our playing style, which has mostly been dreadful. Unless we see the very idea of possession football, which is hardly some alien, out there concept, as a new one which LVG has remarkably introduced. Which isn't the case, especially when it's quite possible the next manager will ditch it for a new style.
@Cheesy hes laid down new trees at carrington
He'll take them with him when he leaves though. After all, he likes keeping possession of stuff.
No I haven't, anyway we're just playing ping pong with this debate, time is the only thing that will give us the answer, so best leave it there.
Who do you think we should have signed then?
And even if I'm in the minority that's fine.
Take the current top four in the premier league for goals scored:
City, their top scorer has 13 goals, their next three have between them 15 goals.
Spurs, their top scorer has 15 goals, their next three have between them 14 goals.
Leicester, their top scorer has 18 goals, their next three have between them 19 goals.
Everton, their top scorer has 15 goals, their next three have between them 14 goals.
And now compare this to United:
Our top scorer has 7 goals, our next three have between them 13 goals.
Had Aguero, Kane, Vardy or Lukaku struggled to score for their teams they would not be where they are, I don't think our problem has been the lack of a stop gap attacking option but the fact Rooney hasn't produced like the main goal scorers of the top four for goals scored so far this season.
@Empire May I have some clear, concise bullet points describing the various foundations van Gaal has laid (effectively) for his successors please. Thanks.
We could've kept Van Persie or Hernandez if a better player was not available.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here at all. Perhaps competition would've spurred on our main striker. As it was he could play like shit and continue to play. Are you really trying to say having a quality back up is not helpful?
When we had four strikers back in the day Andy Cole and Dwight Yorke knew they had to be at their best or they'd lose their place. Rooney never had that. If we had decided to drop him then we would be weakening ourselves in another position. Explain how this is good enough.
I have to agree with @Empire
Had Aguero, Kane, Vardy or Lukaku struggled to score for their teams they would not be where they are, I don't think our problem has been the lack of a stop gap attacking option but the fact Rooney hasn't produced like the main goal scorers of the top four for goals scored so far this season.
The most serious problem, by far, this season has been the lack of goal scoring/creating by Rooney. He put on a fantastic display last night, but until very recently he's been in disastrous form for most of the season. And thus we've dropped far too many stupid points and we find ourselves scrambling now for the fourth place spot instead of the league trophy.
Had Aguero, Kane, Vardy or Lukaku struggled to score for their teams they would not be where they are, I don't think our problem has been the lack of a stop gap attacking option but the fact Rooney hasn't produced like the main goal scorers of the top four for goals scored so far this season.
The most serious problem, by far, this season has been the lack of goal scoring/creating by Rooney. He put on a fantastic display last night, but until very recently he's been in disastrous form for most of the season. And thus we've dropped far too many stupid points and we find ourselves scrambling now for the fourth place spot instead of the league trophy.
The pressure only came off after the opening goal, until that point the fans around me were in the same scared silence they've been in for months.
We need to attack more in the first half of games, it's blindingly obvious to me. Going in at ht at 0-0 just encourages them to hold out in the 2nd half and the players feel the fans frustration and become nervous when every bad touch is met with groans of derision from all around the stadium.
This is just a ridiculous post where upon realising the fact of our attacking problems you are trying to rationalise how a stop gap would be of use.
Think about how each of those points apply to the top four scoring teams in the league currently, they don't.
And as said many times before, RVP or Hernandez would not be adding the amount of goals we'd need from our first choice striker to be in the top four in terms of goals scored in this league. You overrate their ability, there is a reason they are where they are and it was right to let them go.
A stop gap might add a few goals, not elevate us into one of the best attacking teams in the league. It's nice you realise this point now.
If you don't understand how competition can improve performance you're a lost cause. If you'd like an idea of what being dropped can do for a performance compare Rooney pre Stoke to post Stoke.
That is the worst possible outcome for you C'est, because some of those defending LvG will claim United winning the league in the year 2030 will be due to Louis' "foundation"!
I'd be certainly willing to defend him if he achieves another top 4 finish this season. To be that represents the bringing back of some form of stability following the Moyes season. Its the minimum I expected mind. If he was younger and did not have an end date I'd have then given him a third year. As it stands though experience shows players do not perform when they know a manager is not going to out-stay them so for that reason alone I'd change manager in the summer. If he achieves 4th and signs and was open to signing an extention I'd consider him having more time as I'm not convinced Maureen will be the answer for us.
You are spot on with this, but us sensible people will know the truth, and that's all that matters.
He looks set to struggle to meet any reasonable targets this season.
Top 3 (his own words just a few weeks ago) looks a longshot.
Very poor European perfomance.
But the blame should be appropriated. It was the board that kept him here and didnt act. They'll easily hire another manager and keep their jobs, that isnt totally fair.
Top 3 (his own words just a few weeks ago) looks a longshot.
Very poor European perfomance.
But the blame should be appropriated. It was the board that kept him here and didnt act. They'll easily hire another manager and keep their jobs, that isnt totally fair.
Good post.
This.
The 'laying foundations for the future' is useless and lazy as an argument because it can never be proved or disproved. Future results don't prove anything if he's not at the dugout when they happen. I find it odd that it has to be for a successor to reap benefits of his work, as opposed to achieving for himself.
I've personally come to the conclusion that he's so incredibly poor at getting the best out of players, that when a coach comes after him and gets the players performing it seems like some kind of miracle. That's the explanation for what happened at Barca and Bayern.
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I am sure everyone will have their own interpretation of foundation, however, for me it would be based on 3 factors.
1. A balance of academy, young, prime and experienced players
2. A strong spine comprising CF, CM, CB, GK
3. A recognized style of play that can be continued by the next manager.
I am sure others have a different definition, and there is no right or wrong answer as it is how you see it.
When I look at the first, the balance, I believe LVG has excelled in this area. One can question quality, but I am happy with his purchases and his releases. You would have to be totally blinkered to not recognize that the balance of the side when he took over was wrong. Fergie, suffered because the academy players in terms of Pogba and Morrison decided to leave. Also, he relied heavily on his senior players without really finding ideal replacements. Moyes did nothing but delay the inevitable. LVG got rid of players that he did not feel would challenge the first team players (Buttner, Cleverley, Welbeck, Hernandez) and the more experienced players that were at the end of their career. He also got rid of a number of young and academy players that obviously did not show enough during training (Zaha as an example). Therefore, I would argue he has got a sensible balance of those age groups and experience. Something that can be built on.
The second point, is probably the key weakness to date. Great that DDG has stayed (but for how long), LVG has not really bought a WC CB, for the CM he has looked at Schniedlerin as the future, but it hasn't worked out so far, CF/striker he has relied on Rooney, and largely been let down. So this is an area where I expect all our focus in the summer. He probably needs to address the leadership issue.
The third a recognized style of play. it would be hard to say he does not have his philosophy and style of play that could be continued. That does not mean everyone needs to like it.
So imo he is laying a foundation, I accept he and the board had a 3 year plan. They probably expected more attractive football, they probably expected to have better results. If someone like Jose came in (not that I am a fan) he will be in a similar position to when he took over Chelsea the first time, there will be a foundation that needs tweaking. Interestingly Jose brought in the spine in his first session with Chelsea.
1. A balance of academy, young, prime and experienced players
2. A strong spine comprising CF, CM, CB, GK
3. A recognized style of play that can be continued by the next manager.
I am sure others have a different definition, and there is no right or wrong answer as it is how you see it.
When I look at the first, the balance, I believe LVG has excelled in this area. One can question quality, but I am happy with his purchases and his releases. You would have to be totally blinkered to not recognize that the balance of the side when he took over was wrong. Fergie, suffered because the academy players in terms of Pogba and Morrison decided to leave. Also, he relied heavily on his senior players without really finding ideal replacements. Moyes did nothing but delay the inevitable. LVG got rid of players that he did not feel would challenge the first team players (Buttner, Cleverley, Welbeck, Hernandez) and the more experienced players that were at the end of their career. He also got rid of a number of young and academy players that obviously did not show enough during training (Zaha as an example). Therefore, I would argue he has got a sensible balance of those age groups and experience. Something that can be built on.
The second point, is probably the key weakness to date. Great that DDG has stayed (but for how long), LVG has not really bought a WC CB, for the CM he has looked at Schniedlerin as the future, but it hasn't worked out so far, CF/striker he has relied on Rooney, and largely been let down. So this is an area where I expect all our focus in the summer. He probably needs to address the leadership issue.
The third a recognized style of play. it would be hard to say he does not have his philosophy and style of play that could be continued. That does not mean everyone needs to like it.
So imo he is laying a foundation, I accept he and the board had a 3 year plan. They probably expected more attractive football, they probably expected to have better results. If someone like Jose came in (not that I am a fan) he will be in a similar position to when he took over Chelsea the first time, there will be a foundation that needs tweaking. Interestingly Jose brought in the spine in his first session with Chelsea.
Now you just said putting Rooney on the bench for 45minutes is all that was needed to change his form.
And all the players in the world out of form, that's all that's needed right?
Competition for places isn't what drives Aguero, Vardy, Lukaku or Kane, I can't believe I need to tell you that. It's not what drives Messi or Ronaldo either.
I don't really see why that laughable tbh.
Now you just said putting Rooney on the bench for 45minutes is all that was needed to change his form.
And all the players in the world out of form, that's all that's needed right?
Competition for places isn't what drives Aguero, Vardy, Lukaku or Kane, I can't believe I need to tell you that. It's not what drives Messi or Ronaldo either.
Rooney has been a different player since then, maybe its a coincidence, but maybe it was the kick up the backside he needed.
It's not all that's needed but can you explain the difference? If you want to continue believing that competition does not help drive performance you're welcome to continue living in that little bubble. I won't be responding again to state the same thing.
Now you just said putting Rooney on the bench for 45minutes is all that was needed to change his form.
And all the players in the world out of form, that's all that's needed right?
Competition for places isn't what drives Aguero, Vardy, Lukaku or Kane, I can't believe I need to tell you that. It's not what drives Messi or Ronaldo either.
What Louis van Gaal inherited
During Ferguson's final season we had an attack, an RVP on fire and a Carrick who had an amazing season, a goal keeper who saved us and Rafael stayed fit.
We did well early on with a world class attacker saving us from a leaky defence, but then when you have confidence and momentum it's difficult to stop as we have seen with Leicester and a Liverpool side under Rodgers who almost went all the way.
When Ferguson retired RVP's inevitable decline came, Carrick showed the signs of ageing, Rafael was back to being injured and so De Gea was all that remained.
The squad went through Moyes who had no idea how to fix it and made it worse.
By the time it got to Louis van Gaal it had no defence, midfield or attack, the transfer business in recent seasons was not great, RVP always was extremely short term, the signing of Kagawa and RVP in one season lacked balance, the season before on the wing Young didn't turn out as a good as we hoped, Jones has been injury prone and we lost Pogba, the only class signing has been De Gea.
The rebuild
Louis van Gaal's job was to take United back to the top of English football and so prevent the situation that has happened at Liverpool, the first step of that is to rebuild the squad and he has done that well, spending only £129m in two seasons when City spent over £150m tweaking their championship winning squad and Arsenal £73m a squad that the season before LvG arrived spent more time at the top of the league than any other and Louis has drastically reduced the wage bill too, that combined with the work of the commercial department means it is 41.3% or something when we look to have it about 50% of turnover so we are very healthy financially.
This is good work, the current team has a solid defence, Shaw, Smalling, Darmian and De Gea are starters needing the addition of only one centre back, the rotation options are fine, and he has given game time to a potential gem in Borthwick-Jackson who now we know probably has a future in our squad.
The midfield shield has added Schneiderlin but obviously Carrick needs replacing however the signing of Schweinsteiger was sensible as he is 31 and allows a younger player time to bed in if he needs it.
The attack looks to have potential, his vision includes players like Adnan, Martial, Memphis and Lingard, the two bought have been sensible and the game time to Lingard fantastic too for his development at a point in his career where he needs it, this attack will be full of goals and flair.
The future
The rebuild is over, now we need only to add quality. To rebuild isn't an easy skill a lot of clubs use DOFs etc. and people behind the scenes to do it but Louis van Gaal has done good work, whether this squad goes onto become the best in England only time will show, I think the signings will show their quality and we are looking better than Arsenal + City assuming we continue to do good work in the market.
When you look at the sheer quantity of change in such a short period then obviously players will take a lot of time to gel, understand each other etc. next season is different because there will be one or two quality signings but not quantity.
Tactics
Louis van Gaal's patient, positional game will work well in big matches putting down a tactical foundation, against the smaller teams (the parked bus) individual brilliance will break it down as our inconsistent youngsters mature into consistently effective attackers, in the big matches these tactics seem like they will serve us well, drilling this into the players now is vital especially with young players, but as with any skill they will get better with time, the new manager will profit from this but obviously Louis wants to be
that guy and will want to be here next season to do that but even if he isn't you can't just disregard his work.
Link between youth and first team
The integration of youth into the first team is also vital, losing Pogba has got to be a wake up call, we can't let it happen again and the smaller squad size helps with this. He also has a vision for how he wants us to play and that's probably been implemented throughout the academy, even if the new manager has changes at least the structure is there so it's easy to implement into our youth education.
The results
He has obviously underperformed this season in terms of results on the pitch but Rooney is our main man, there was little choice there, we tried to sign the likes of Bale, Neymar or Muller because he realised that's an area where we were lacking but that's near impossible, and Rooney isn't really good enough to consistently do this anymore throughout the season and so his numbers don't match the likes of Kane or Aguero.
It's not so easy to perform well when your best player is a 19 year old (now 20) making the step up who isn't yet a prolific goal scorer, and that's the reality, because our squad lacked the ability in attack after RVP's decline we had to invest in a player that will take time to get there, in future signings like Martial need to happen while we have a striker still at the top of his game near the end of his prime.
The new manager will profit from this rebuild obviously, his situation will be radically different to the one LvG inherited, if LvG is here next season he will profit from this rebuild, he can still do that this season with the cups as a lot of changes were made in the summer but now things seem to have settled.
Crazy
I find it crazy fans don't care for this work and only results on the pitch, we got into this mess because our long term planning was poor, after Ronaldo left the short term work produced 2 league titles out of four and 0 cups out of four and it left our squad in a real mess, our lack of planning in succeeding Ferguson made the situation considerably worse.
We now have a manager who is big on long term planning even though he also wants to win in the short term but he won't sacrifice the long term for it hence the methods he has employed.
I find it crazy so many fans don't care for the good work done and only care for short term success, that's how you end up like Liverpool, I get the impression fans would sooner we have Mourinho win us another league title even if it means we are in an even worse state afterwards.
Two years and the foundation is in place in terms of our tactics, solid squad, promotion of youth to first team, integration of current youth into first team playing time, and clarity in vision because when you see clearly what you are building it's much easier for there to be continuity.
The results on the pitch haven't been good enough and that needs to change, but when you look at our current situation and compare it to when LvG came, it's obvious now it's simply a matter of time, the current squad is too good not to do well especially if there is more transfer business like we have done, the results will come and we will produce them for a long time.
When this season comes to an end it will have been 17 years since we won both the FA Cup and League in one season, that's way too long. But when I look at our situation now, I can't help but think we're going to do it in the near future, of course that's assuming the work put in place under Louis van Gaal continues and so we have clarity in the transfer market this summer.
During Ferguson's final season we had an attack, an RVP on fire and a Carrick who had an amazing season, a goal keeper who saved us and Rafael stayed fit.
We did well early on with a world class attacker saving us from a leaky defence, but then when you have confidence and momentum it's difficult to stop as we have seen with Leicester and a Liverpool side under Rodgers who almost went all the way.
When Ferguson retired RVP's inevitable decline came, Carrick showed the signs of ageing, Rafael was back to being injured and so De Gea was all that remained.
The squad went through Moyes who had no idea how to fix it and made it worse.
By the time it got to Louis van Gaal it had no defence, midfield or attack, the transfer business in recent seasons was not great, RVP always was extremely short term, the signing of Kagawa and RVP in one season lacked balance, the season before on the wing Young didn't turn out as a good as we hoped, Jones has been injury prone and we lost Pogba, the only class signing has been De Gea.
The rebuild
Louis van Gaal's job was to take United back to the top of English football and so prevent the situation that has happened at Liverpool, the first step of that is to rebuild the squad and he has done that well, spending only £129m in two seasons when City spent over £150m tweaking their championship winning squad and Arsenal £73m a squad that the season before LvG arrived spent more time at the top of the league than any other and Louis has drastically reduced the wage bill too, that combined with the work of the commercial department means it is 41.3% or something when we look to have it about 50% of turnover so we are very healthy financially.
This is good work, the current team has a solid defence, Shaw, Smalling, Darmian and De Gea are starters needing the addition of only one centre back, the rotation options are fine, and he has given game time to a potential gem in Borthwick-Jackson who now we know probably has a future in our squad.
The midfield shield has added Schneiderlin but obviously Carrick needs replacing however the signing of Schweinsteiger was sensible as he is 31 and allows a younger player time to bed in if he needs it.
The attack looks to have potential, his vision includes players like Adnan, Martial, Memphis and Lingard, the two bought have been sensible and the game time to Lingard fantastic too for his development at a point in his career where he needs it, this attack will be full of goals and flair.
The future
The rebuild is over, now we need only to add quality. To rebuild isn't an easy skill a lot of clubs use DOFs etc. and people behind the scenes to do it but Louis van Gaal has done good work, whether this squad goes onto become the best in England only time will show, I think the signings will show their quality and we are looking better than Arsenal + City assuming we continue to do good work in the market.
When you look at the sheer quantity of change in such a short period then obviously players will take a lot of time to gel, understand each other etc. next season is different because there will be one or two quality signings but not quantity.
Tactics
Louis van Gaal's patient, positional game will work well in big matches putting down a tactical foundation, against the smaller teams (the parked bus) individual brilliance will break it down as our inconsistent youngsters mature into consistently effective attackers, in the big matches these tactics seem like they will serve us well, drilling this into the players now is vital especially with young players, but as with any skill they will get better with time, the new manager will profit from this but obviously Louis wants to be
that guy and will want to be here next season to do that but even if he isn't you can't just disregard his work.
Link between youth and first team
The integration of youth into the first team is also vital, losing Pogba has got to be a wake up call, we can't let it happen again and the smaller squad size helps with this. He also has a vision for how he wants us to play and that's probably been implemented throughout the academy, even if the new manager has changes at least the structure is there so it's easy to implement into our youth education.
The results
He has obviously underperformed this season in terms of results on the pitch but Rooney is our main man, there was little choice there, we tried to sign the likes of Bale, Neymar or Muller because he realised that's an area where we were lacking but that's near impossible, and Rooney isn't really good enough to consistently do this anymore throughout the season and so his numbers don't match the likes of Kane or Aguero.
It's not so easy to perform well when your best player is a 19 year old (now 20) making the step up who isn't yet a prolific goal scorer, and that's the reality, because our squad lacked the ability in attack after RVP's decline we had to invest in a player that will take time to get there, in future signings like Martial need to happen while we have a striker still at the top of his game near the end of his prime.
The new manager will profit from this rebuild obviously, his situation will be radically different to the one LvG inherited, if LvG is here next season he will profit from this rebuild, he can still do that this season with the cups as a lot of changes were made in the summer but now things seem to have settled.
Crazy
I find it crazy fans don't care for this work and only results on the pitch, we got into this mess because our long term planning was poor, after Ronaldo left the short term work produced 2 league titles out of four and 0 cups out of four and it left our squad in a real mess, our lack of planning in succeeding Ferguson made the situation considerably worse.
We now have a manager who is big on long term planning even though he also wants to win in the short term but he won't sacrifice the long term for it hence the methods he has employed.
I find it crazy so many fans don't care for the good work done and only care for short term success, that's how you end up like Liverpool, I get the impression fans would sooner we have Mourinho win us another league title even if it means we are in an even worse state afterwards.
Two years and the foundation is in place in terms of our tactics, solid squad, promotion of youth to first team, integration of current youth into first team playing time, and clarity in vision because when you see clearly what you are building it's much easier for there to be continuity.
The results on the pitch haven't been good enough and that needs to change, but when you look at our current situation and compare it to when LvG came, it's obvious now it's simply a matter of time, the current squad is too good not to do well especially if there is more transfer business like we have done, the results will come and we will produce them for a long time.
When this season comes to an end it will have been 17 years since we won both the FA Cup and League in one season, that's way too long. But when I look at our situation now, I can't help but think we're going to do it in the near future, of course that's assuming the work put in place under Louis van Gaal continues and so we have clarity in the transfer market this summer.
I'm saying the reason Rooney is not a prolific goal scorer in 2015 / 16 is not because he lacks a player like Bony on the bench.
Win our next 2 matches and I'll defend him with the best of em!
Post of the year for me. I absolutely 100% agree with everything you've set out here. I think there's a ridiculous tendency in the modern game to look at the short term, and a big example of this is people not rating players down to form. Some of these players Mata,Herrera, Rooney and Memphis etc are all better players than they have shown for the majority of this year and that's been seen through their careers. While the caf seems to think our future is shrowded in darkness, I think we could be about to enter one of our most exciting eras once again. We still have afew more decisions that we need to get right e.g manager, and remaining signings but if that clicks then we are laughing.
Bit of a statement and could you elaborate? We are looking better than Arsenal and City, who are outperforming us in virtually every competition? It's just a bit vague. Surely if any team in the top 6 does good work in the market they could be the best in the league depending on who they sign. If say Spurs Sign Bale and Modric back, they will be serious contenders, probably champions. City also add significant numbers most seasons (approximately 4-5) so their players will still need to Gel (Sterling, De Bruyne, Otamendi) so its true we probably haven't seen the best of them yet.
Question: In order to become the best team in the premier league, which team requires the most individual players to add to their 1st team?
Which team requires the most investment in terms of expenditure or bottom line. That could mean United only needing 2 top bracket players around the £70 mill mark for example.
Which team requires the least individual additions to their first team to become the best?
which team requires the least cash expenditure (may end up the same answer to question above)
I am just curious as to what you think based on what you said in part of your essay
I'm going out on a limb and speaking for all of South Africa when I say please god dont let him get a third year at the club.
I agree. Do you have any theories as to why three quarters of the team played below form for so long?
Well, I certainly hope you're right. But to me and many others this isn't obvious.
The second part there is what seems obvious to me, viz. that we need to bring in a couple of very good players in order to transform into a team of the calibre we should aim for given our resources, history and stature in the game.
What you refer to as a rebuild has so far, on the face of it, amounted to buying X players and letting Y players go. LVG has done well in that regard, I think, but I fail to see that his ins and outs have been anything special, i.e. moves that not any handful of other managers could have or would have made as well given our transfer budget. Martial is a possible exception there. Many managers would not have gone for him, but someone more experienced instead. And I'm with Louis on that – he was right to go for Martial, as he is precisely the sort of player we should be going for, in the future also.
As for the (future) core of the team – well: The jury's still out on several of these players. Your confidence in Lingard, in particular, is probably not shared by a great number of posters on here. For me, he looks like he will be useful for us at worst, which isn't bad – but I'm far from certain he'll turn into a world beater we can look to as Barca look to Neymar or Bayern to Müller.
One particular point which struck me, reading your post: De Gea. It hasn't been talked about all that much (overshadowed by more pressing concerns, no doubt) but two things have to be said about that situation: 1) He could easily leave after this season. And 2) It looks almost random that he didn't leave last summer. Was LVG 100% certain that he would not leave? I doubt that, I have to say.
In fact, several of LVG's moves (if the DDG affair can be called a move) have looked more like random (re)actions than carefully thought-out bits of strategy – both on and off the pitch, one might add.
LVG's traditional strong point in these debates remains a huge X-factor of sorts: His actual work with the players under his command, his work as a “teacher”, his attempts to pass on football knowledge to 'em which will benefit both the players and the next manager – in short, the aspect of his “philosophy” he's most famous for. We don't know to what extent he has been successful, or done a good job, in that regard. His supporters take it for granted that he has. The skeptics, on the other hand, will point to the obvious: Unlike his Bayern stint, LVG's United stint has never seen him implement his teachings in a way that has been visible, and obvious, on the pitch for a sustained string of matches: For all intents and purposes we haven't actually clicked yet.
Perhaps we'll finally click next season – as I keep saying, stranger things have happened. But it remains a fact that his United stint stands out in his career so far – for the wrong reason: There hasn't been a good run, a period of grace, nothing more than a whisper of it (a handful of matches where we didn't seem to adhere to the default system at that, which makes it even harder to grasp what he's up to) – and we're fast approaching two full seasons of his management.
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@Empire people would maybe agree more if results hadn't regressed so badly this season, the style of play and results are not good enough for Manchester United. He can count himself extremely lucky that he wasn't fired. At any other major club he would have been.
Neither do I agree that its simply 'a matter of time' for things to improve under him. I think HE needs to adapt his thinking if he wants to survive long term. Leicester have shown what can be achieved by being on the front foot, we don't need to be so cautious all the time. Get the ball moving quickly. That's why so many people are frustrated with LVG. We can see the problems. He's too stubborn.
I cant see him being here beyond summer anyway, I think they have a mutual agreement already
Neither do I agree that its simply 'a matter of time' for things to improve under him. I think HE needs to adapt his thinking if he wants to survive long term. Leicester have shown what can be achieved by being on the front foot, we don't need to be so cautious all the time. Get the ball moving quickly. That's why so many people are frustrated with LVG. We can see the problems. He's too stubborn.
I cant see him being here beyond summer anyway, I think they have a mutual agreement already
In my personal opinion it's mainly down to management. Under LVG the whole team has underperformed and I think that's mainly down to his restrictive football at times. The players are clearly instructed to keep possession and I think for a lot of these players that's not their natural game.
just to give a couple of examples specific to those players. Herrera when he first arrived, was positive, progressive and showed fantastic vision. If you remember he was then dropped for an extended period and when he came back he made some comments alluding to the fact he had now changed to get in line with what LVG wants. Well in changing his game , Herrera has taken huge steps backwards in his game to the point where people are literally writing him off. However, I firmly believe that we haven't seen the best of him as a player and under new management, in a quicker more direct style he would flourish.
I think there are similar stories to tell about the others I listed as well where they looked positive early on before dropping off. The other big factors that is widely and wrongly neglected is the confidence of the players. I can say from my experience playing football that confidence is probably the single biggest factor in performance even more so than ability. Take for example the Leicester team, many of those players have been seen as poor or average players before this season, but just look at what confidence and playing in a fluent team system can do!
Ultimately this is where Fergie succeeded and Moyes and van Gaal have failed, to me a great manger isn't about how they view football it's about how they can adapt to get the very best of the players available. It's no coincidence that the greatest man manager of all time, Sir Alex, is also the greatest and most successful manager as well because he inspired a winning mentality. If Utd have lost anything in three years it's that.
Do you believe it's a good thing for players not to have competition?
How does his spending compare with the two other teams above us? Or the ones that we're ahead of?
We don't need to bring in a couple of very good players, we need for our young potential players to mature into consistent effective performers.
But since making signings is normal each season for every club it's also important we make signings and the sensible thing to do is sign a player that is one of the best in his age group ready for the step up with genuine world class potential, that seems to be how our transfer targets are assessed now.
I didn't say that, if you read my post you'll see there is a lot more to the rebuild than just transfers. The tactical foundations, integration of youth, early promotion of youth talent to first team is also part of it.
But signing players isn't easy, you need to have a vision of your team and then identify players that fit this and find the right talent, there has to be a lot of clarity, that's why most teams use a DOF.
Look at before he came, the three seasons our main signings were:
RVP / Kagawa / Zaha
De Gea / Jones / Young
Bebe / Smalling / Hernandez
I don't think it is as easy to sign top players as you are making out.
The Martial signing is just the start, that's what he does, he'll find a player who he thinks is the best in his age group and go for him. You'd also list Memphis if he had been performing well, PSG were in for him, we took him.
Then there is the fact he has a vision and he knows where young players fit in this, he has clarity, Adnan he probably wants to develop so he can be part of his 4-2-3-1, Lingard he sees something in etc.
Shaw he obviously rated highly and so without a doubt had a key role in his system, he wanted that, in his absence BJ has stepped up.
I think Blind is another player who has done well that you haven't mentioned, other managers wouldn't go for him, he is the type of squad player you want in a team.
And Darmian also I think is going to surprise people, he'll show himself to be a consistently solid right back, he just needs time to adapt.
It's hard to judge this though now, we'll see what comes of these players.
He doesn't need to be Neymar or Muller, Martial will be that, Memphis will be that, Adnan might be that, surely Pedro was of value to Barcelona, if you have a player who is a solid squad player that works hard for the team, you need that, if you have that player in your youth system then you should promote and develop him instead of spending £20m signing a squad player.
At worst Lingard will be that.
Louis van Gaal did well there, he played it right to the end, played hard ball with Madrid and got lucky by a freak mistake on their part. But Louis got lucky because of how he played his hand, he created the possibility for fortune and he always wanted in exchange their goalkeeper otherwise De Gea would see out his contract.
I think Navas is a good keeper personally.
How is De Gea move random? He named his price otherwise De Gea wasn't leaving, Real Madrid didn't give in to the demands until right at the end when Navas would be transferred too.
He was clear on how it was going to be right from the start.
I don't care whether Louis van Gaal is the professor or dutch godfather or whatever, I'm just looking at the work done, if you don't think it's sensible then that's your opinion.