Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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There’s also this:
Two former Israeli ambassadors to South Africa accuse Jewish state of 'apartheid'
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/isra...south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-apartheid
I mean, when literal ambassadors of your country are calling it apartheid it probably is.
Two former Israeli ambassadors to South Africa accuse Jewish state of 'apartheid'
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/isra...south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-apartheid
I mean, when literal ambassadors of your country are calling it apartheid it probably is.
I'm not knowledgeable enough in Israel/Palestine conflict to have a reasonable opinion but calling Desmond Tutu a bigot and accusing him of antisemitism is way over the line. The man was one of the few real humanitarians around and cared deeply for everyones well-being. I'm not saying Israel is at fault but every criticism that hits them can not just be antisemitism, some must have some truth, same goes for the Palestinians.
This quote from the article is so on point:
Bears reminding that Dershowitz is the same guy that likened the International Court of Justice to the all white courts of Mississippi during the Jim Crow Era because the ICJ called out Israeli human rights violations.
Which is especially ironic, considering Jim Crow laws were our apartheid. Projection at its finest by Alan.
Which is especially ironic, considering Jim Crow laws were our apartheid. Projection at its finest by Alan.
In 2020, the UN General Assembly passed exactly 23 resolutions condemning various countries.
17 of them were directed against Israel
The rest of the world - Syria, Myanmar, North Korea, Iran and so on - must be content with a combined total of six condemnations.
I fear that no UN organisation is objective about the situation.
So about the report. I have already said that an arab party is part of the government right now. That did not apply to Apartheid in South Africa.
Also the report laments that Gaza is basically cut off from Israel and West Bank. Of course that will affect people's lives. As I said, for me Gaza and West Bank are under military rule, of course life won't feel like a trip to Disneyland.
Among other things, the report also rues the loss of land the Palestinians have experienced in the last 70 years. Well, they lost the bloody war. What did they expect?
AI treat the situation like it is happening and it was created out of thin air. Everything that happened is a prologoue of what is happening now.
I hate to say it, but context is everything and it is desperately missing in AI's report.
17 of them were directed against Israel
The rest of the world - Syria, Myanmar, North Korea, Iran and so on - must be content with a combined total of six condemnations.
I fear that no UN organisation is objective about the situation.
So about the report. I have already said that an arab party is part of the government right now. That did not apply to Apartheid in South Africa.
Also the report laments that Gaza is basically cut off from Israel and West Bank. Of course that will affect people's lives. As I said, for me Gaza and West Bank are under military rule, of course life won't feel like a trip to Disneyland.
Among other things, the report also rues the loss of land the Palestinians have experienced in the last 70 years. Well, they lost the bloody war. What did they expect?
AI treat the situation like it is happening and it was created out of thin air. Everything that happened is a prologoue of what is happening now.
I hate to say it, but context is everything and it is desperately missing in AI's report.
Excellent hasbara. You eyeing a promotion?
habla ingles?
Yet all the countries except israel has had sanctions against them…
So I guess those in favor of the Israel is an Apartheid state narrative would have to address the fact that there are about 14 Arabs in the Knesset (one of which is apparently a Likud member no less) in a democratic nation that regularly holds elections. This would on the surface be quite different from Apartheid era South Africa where black South Africans couldn't vote until the mid 90s.
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Not sure how this is relevant? I'm sure AI and Desmond Tutu are aware of these whataboutisms but still calling a spade a spade.
What random individuals say based on their own political preferences isn't really a convincing argument imo. If there is truly apartheid in Israel, those promoting that narrative still have all their work ahead of them since there are currently elections in Israel that Arab citizens participate in to the tune of 70% turnout each cycle. They have, and take advantage of, an opportunity to vote for politicians who best reflect their views, which would seem to be a problem for "Israel is apartheid" proponents.
Coloureds and Asians had representatives in the parliament of Apartheid South Africa, a country which regularly held democratic elections.
There were a few black people in the US Congress during Jim Crow/defacto segregation in the North. The US has always been a democratic nation even during years of massive disenfranchisement of black people.
See where I'm going here?
Edit: Exactly what @adexkola said.
You really shouldn't have had to spell this out, it's mind numbingly obvious.
Shame that Raoul is following the hasbara route in the guise of devil's advocate or whatever he wants to call it.
Yeah but we're not talking about random, token candidates. There are 14 or so Arabs in the 120 member Knesset, which is not insignificant. Are you telling Israeli Arabs their votes shouldn't count ?
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You're really massaging that statistic. 3 of those Arabs are Druze. 1, possibly 2, of them are Christian (one attended a Catholic high school). Also, Arabs make up over 20% of the Israeli population, but are sitting at 11% of the Knesset... even less than that when you account for the Druze and Arab Christian(s).
If people are just going to ignore human rights groups like Amnesty International and B'Tselem and then ignore political figures like Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu then I'm not what use this thread is.
This looks like something Israeli Arab voters can change if they so choose. They can obviously vote for whoever they want.
The reason Israel is an Apartheid state is not as much due to it's treatment of Israeli Arabs (and other minorities). You're (deliberately) ignoring the elephant in the room.
You know, coincidentally, the Constitution said black Americans could do just that during the entire Jim Crow Era. But I'm sure voter suppression has been largely blunted in Israel, the same way it was here.
I think that's a big problem for Israel which needs to be looked at in a balanced way by taking into account both Israeli and Palestinian (most recently Hamas) policy towards one another.
Sorry, why would you distinguish Druze and Christians here?
The accepted definition of Apartheid appears to be broader than relying on the specific conditions that prevailed in South Africa. Amnesty have also recently declared Myanmar an apartheid state, and I believe under the current definition there are more states which can be legitimately categorized as such. Whether this process actually helps drive actual change or has the effect of cheapening the term remains to be seen.
Yes I'm sure we could pluck an endless amount of whataboutisms out of history, but none would perfectly align with the specific nuances of the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The further people discuss this issue through the lens of fringe narratives, the further apart both sides will drift until diplomacy and negotiations are impossible, which is ultimately the only way progress will be made.
Because Druze and Christians aren't the same thing...?
That's not a whataboutism. It's another example of apartheid. Which, again, is what Israel has done / is doing.
I think the question is why you'd distinguish them from other Arabs?
Because they're not Palestinian Muslim Arabs.
Yes but the conversation was about Israeli Arabs as a whole.
They are ethnic Arabs, so would obviously count here.
The Druze and Arab Christians have a much different relationship with the State of Israel. To include them in the "it isn't apartheid because there are 14 Arabs in the Knesset" seems to me to be ignoring that fact.
Legally speaking, how is the relationship different?
When examining Jewish vs non-Jewish participation in Israeli elections, all ethnic Arabs as well as other minorities count (I thought this would be obvious).
Because if they were Muslim, or Palestinian, they’d struggle to have the same rights they do have as Druze or Arab Christian.
Arab Muslim citizens of Israel have the same rights as Arab Christian and Druze citizens.
I disagree. There is no balance in apartheid, the onus and attention falls on the side performing apartheid.
You sound like Reagan telling the ANC to "renounce violence".