Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Scarlett Dracarys]

Newsflash this isn't the first time babies are being killed in that region. It's pure evil when an institution is responsible for the death of children. I'm getting sick to my stomach just thinking about it and I'm hoping that it's misinformation.
Having said that let's all stop and remember ALL the children that died there. The life of a child isn't lesser than the next. None of them should die.

 

[groovyalbert]

Can only speak from the Iranian perspective


Iran is the only "muslim" country where the ordinary people (not the regime mercenaries) are much more pro-Israel or more to say anti-Palestine. The reasons are very simple:

- Palestine was a terrorist training ground for Islamists and Marxists to get military training and import them to Iran to cause chaos in lead up to the 1979 "revolution" which started our downfall and misery.

- Palestinians absolutely love Saddam Hussain. There is a Saddam square in Gaza and even 2 nights ago when there was "celebration rally" for Hamas in Toronto, the Palestinians were dancing with Saddam posters (I have the video)

- For 44 years, all of our taxes, and money of OUR IRANIAN natural resources has been going to Palestine, Gaza, Hezbollah etc...A large proportion of population in the West is already frustrated and tired of having their tax money sent to Ukraine after 1.5 years, now imagine this scenario for 44 bloody years as you get poorer and poorer every day. That's why one of the most prevalent chants in all anti-regime protests in Iran is: "No to Gaza, No to Lebanon, My life is only for Iran."

- All of Gazans, Hamas fans, Hezbollah etc would gladly come to streets of Tehran and act as suppression arm of Islamic Republic to massacre Iranians just so that their sugardaddy sponsor, Islamic Republic, can stay in power. Last year on Twitter in height of the Mahsa Amini protests, literally every single person with "Palestine" flag in their bio and name were justifying the brutal massacre of our kids, women, teenagers, and men on the streets of Iran.

...I've seen nothing but misery in my life from Palestinian side. So that's why most Iranians are don’t care about Ummah or Islamic aspect of Palestine stuff. Hell, I’m willing to bet if there was a truly free questionnaire on how many Iranians consider themselves Muslim now, you’d get a number around 50-60% ….We've suffered enough...plus, we were a nation before Islam even was forced on us, and we'll be a nation long after these cancers (Mullahs) are gone. inshallah

Lots and lots of Iranians and Iranian flags (the real one, not the occupier current one) in display last night in Israel Solidarity gathering of 20k in Toronto.

Thanks for this post, it's a really fascinating point highlighting the depths of complexity within Middle East relations. I'd seen recent videos of the Persepolis football match where fans actively reject the Palestinian flag, and then further videos of Iranian flags flying alongside Israeli ones in Paris gatherings. Both make much more sense now. Hopefully the IR regime crumbles. What it has both destroyed and simultaneously played a key role in establishing in the region is nothing short of heart-braking. Everyone would be better off with its demise.

 

[The Corinthian]

Ahmed Madi, a Swedish man living in Gothenburg, was on the phone to his wife Yasmine in Gaza - who was there with their two young daughters.

Minutes later, he got a call saying they were all dead. A missile had hit their home.

Four-year-old Nawal was a Swedish citizen, but her one-year-old sister Sila and mother weren't, according to the girls' cousin Mohammed Hassan. That's why they weren't in Sweden, he tells the BBC.

"Those girls were desperate to come to Sweden, to be with their dad," he says.

A fourth member of the family has also died, he says - and others are in hospital.

Mohammed describes the helplessness of being abroad with family who are trapped as the bombs fall.

"You can't help innocent people who are suffering. You just sit around waiting to see if they die."

A number of countries say their citizens have been caught up in the latest hostilities. France is one of the latest countries to offer an update - saying eight of its nationals have been confirmed dead in attacks by Hamas.

 

[pierrethesnack]

Can only speak from the Iranian perspective


Iran is the only "muslim" country where the ordinary people (not the regime mercenaries) are much more pro-Israel or more to say anti-Palestine. The reasons are very simple:

- Palestine was a terrorist training ground for Islamists and Marxists to get military training and import them to Iran to cause chaos in lead up to the 1979 "revolution" which started our downfall and misery.

- Palestinians absolutely love Saddam Hussain. There is a Saddam square in Gaza and even 2 nights ago when there was "celebration rally" for Hamas in Toronto, the Palestinians were dancing with Saddam posters (I have the video)

- For 44 years, all of our taxes, and money of OUR IRANIAN natural resources has been going to Palestine, Gaza, Hezbollah etc...A large proportion of population in the West is already frustrated and tired of having their tax money sent to Ukraine after 1.5 years, now imagine this scenario for 44 bloody years as you get poorer and poorer every day. That's why one of the most prevalent chants in all anti-regime protests in Iran is: "No to Gaza, No to Lebanon, My life is only for Iran."

- All of Gazans, Hamas fans, Hezbollah etc would gladly come to streets of Tehran and act as suppression arm of Islamic Republic to massacre Iranians just so that their sugardaddy sponsor, Islamic Republic, can stay in power. Last year on Twitter in height of the Mahsa Amini protests, literally every single person with "Palestine" flag in their bio and name were justifying the brutal massacre of our kids, women, teenagers, and men on the streets of Iran.

...I've seen nothing but misery in my life from Palestinian side. So that's why most Iranians are don’t care about Ummah or Islamic aspect of Palestine stuff. Hell, I’m willing to bet if there was a truly free questionnaire on how many Iranians consider themselves Muslim now, you’d get a number around 50-60% ….We've suffered enough...plus, we were a nation before Islam even was forced on us, and we'll be a nation long after these cancers (Mullahs) are gone. inshallah

Lots and lots of Iranians and Iranian flags (the real one, not the occupier current one) in display last night in Israel Solidarity gathering of 20k in Toronto.

Interesting stuff, cheers.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Ahmed Madi, a Swedish man living in Gothenburg, was on the phone to his wife Yasmine in Gaza - who was there with their two young daughters.

Minutes later, he got a call saying they were all dead. A missile had hit their home.

Four-year-old Nawal was a Swedish citizen, but her one-year-old sister Sila and mother weren't, according to the girls' cousin Mohammed Hassan. That's why they weren't in Sweden, he tells the BBC.

"Those girls were desperate to come to Sweden, to be with their dad," he says.

A fourth member of the family has also died, he says - and others are in hospital.

Mohammed describes the helplessness of being abroad with family who are trapped as the bombs fall.

"You can't help innocent people who are suffering. You just sit around waiting to see if they die."

A number of countries say their citizens have been caught up in the latest hostilities. France is one of the latest countries to offer an update - saying eight of its nationals have been confirmed dead in attacks by Hamas.

fecks sake. just harrowing.

And we've seen nothing yet.

This is going to be a dark stain on humanity, this entire "round".
As if we don't have enough shite going on.

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

Ahmed Madi, a Swedish man living in Gothenburg, was on the phone to his wife Yasmine in Gaza - who was there with their two young daughters.

Minutes later, he got a call saying they were all dead. A missile had hit their home.

Four-year-old Nawal was a Swedish citizen, but her one-year-old sister Sila and mother weren't, according to the girls' cousin Mohammed Hassan. That's why they weren't in Sweden, he tells the BBC.

"Those girls were desperate to come to Sweden, to be with their dad," he says.

A fourth member of the family has also died, he says - and others are in hospital.

Mohammed describes the helplessness of being abroad with family who are trapped as the bombs fall.

"You can't help innocent people who are suffering. You just sit around waiting to see if they die."

A number of countries say their citizens have been caught up in the latest hostilities. France is one of the latest countries to offer an update - saying eight of its nationals have been confirmed dead in attacks by Hamas.

Poor babies

 

[Raoul]

Can only speak from the Iranian perspective


Iran is the only "muslim" country where the ordinary people (not the regime mercenaries) are much more pro-Israel or more to say anti-Palestine. The reasons are very simple:

- Palestine was a terrorist training ground for Islamists and Marxists to get military training and import them to Iran to cause chaos in lead up to the 1979 "revolution" which started our downfall and misery.

- Palestinians absolutely love Saddam Hussain. There is a Saddam square in Gaza and even 2 nights ago when there was "celebration rally" for Hamas in Toronto, the Palestinians were dancing with Saddam posters (I have the video)

- For 44 years, all of our taxes, and money of OUR IRANIAN natural resources has been going to Palestine, Gaza, Hezbollah etc...A large proportion of population in the West is already frustrated and tired of having their tax money sent to Ukraine after 1.5 years, now imagine this scenario for 44 bloody years as you get poorer and poorer every day. That's why one of the most prevalent chants in all anti-regime protests in Iran is: "No to Gaza, No to Lebanon, My life is only for Iran."

- All of Gazans, Hamas fans, Hezbollah etc would gladly come to streets of Tehran and act as suppression arm of Islamic Republic to massacre Iranians just so that their sugardaddy sponsor, Islamic Republic, can stay in power. Last year on Twitter in height of the Mahsa Amini protests, literally every single person with "Palestine" flag in their bio and name were justifying the brutal massacre of our kids, women, teenagers, and men on the streets of Iran.

...I've seen nothing but misery in my life from Palestinian side. So that's why most Iranians are don’t care about Ummah or Islamic aspect of Palestine stuff. Hell, I’m willing to bet if there was a truly free questionnaire on how many Iranians consider themselves Muslim now, you’d get a number around 50-60% ….We've suffered enough...plus, we were a nation before Islam even was forced on us, and we'll be a nation long after these cancers (Mullahs) are gone. inshallah

Lots and lots of Iranians and Iranian flags (the real one, not the occupier current one) in display last night in Israel Solidarity gathering of 20k in Toronto.

Add to that there are a lot of Iranian Jews with families ties in Israel, most here in the US.

 

[berbatrick]

It would create the political conditions for those negotiations to happen and would turn the tide within much of Israeli society towards peace as well.

In 2018, they, men, women, and children, walked peacefully to the same border that was breached this time, were shot with a lot of bullets, and in response the elected Israeli government became more right-wing.

...

I like to think even barbarians would think twice about hurting babies

Killing babies in personal, sadistic ways has been common - Mongols, Vikings (it's shown in the Northman IIRC), and the Nazis did a ton of it. More recent, and more analogous to Israel/Gaza, there is video of somebody boasting about it during religious violence in India in 2002.

I'm relieved there's some doubt about it in this case, but I wouldn't put it past them. Even if it wasn't top-down "policy" or representative of everybody*, at least a decent chunk of the attackers were clearly out for any blood and revenge. Their brutality (whether or not it involved beheading, it did involve shooting babies for sure) will (and should) be the main factor in how the attack is remembered.


*saw on twitter an interview with an Israeli mother who was caught at home with her two children and then released unharmed, and a couple more like it. People were claiming that these proved the high ideals/restraint of the attackers, but that's very obviously not the case for the attack as a whole.

 

[The Corinthian]

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[Amarsdd]

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No surprise there when US politicians are basically saying it. Marco Rubio was essentially calling for that today (in CNN I think) when asked what will happen to the 2M in Gaza; 1M of them children; and he basically said oh well Israel gotta do when they gotta do.

 

[Tibs]

Is Zionism a form of white supremacy?

 

[fergies coat]

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What's wrong with people? The human race will never learn. We will wipe ourselves out one day.

 

[neverdie]

The use of the Israeli flag will live in infamy (by the various EU/Western states). That was a state-to-apartheid-state decision. They could have condemnded Hamas, as they did, and called for a ceasefire (which they won't, or will hesitate too, another decision which will live in infamy) without using a flag associated directly with apartheid. Just a Ukrainian-add-on in EU non-think.

The problem isn't that they said they supported Israeli citizens, it's that they chose to make a state distinction and used a flag which they know, because they've all furthered and signed various resolutions vetoed by the US, is complicit, symbolically, in some of the worst acts of similar terror we witnessed just recently. You would never expect the Palestinian flag to be beamed (even when you get a rare "we stand with Palestinian victims" statement). It's just colonial, racist, horseshit by certain states. Entirely Orwellian in its doublethink implications and they know it (or do they?). One wonders.

How does beaming one "side's" flag protect that "side's" security within Europe/America, etc., when there are as many, if not many, many, more muslims/Arabs/Palestinian-implicated (related in various ways) in those populations? It's devisory. Now, if they did it when Israel (the state) carpet bombed Gaza the last time, beamed the Palestinian flag, or when they broke international law (a newtonian constant now within the westbank, basic Israeli settler-far-right n mentality), you might have consistency. Instead all you have is farcical propaganda which will, before too long, be remembered exactly as I am describing it (or not too far off). Guaranteed.

As it goes, there should be a complete ban on all settlement produced goods from the WB. That's not a controversial position unless you literally support apartheid or do not understand why the ban should exist. It acts to do two practical things: one, prevents capital gain from territorial acquisition; two, stands as a redline implementation which actuallly does say "pacificism might get you somewhere".

(as it goes, individuals within those states have all the right in the world to rally for this or that cause, be it Israel or Palestine and use either flag, but states making a distinction in what is, by all of them now, defined and/or accepted, EU, certainly, as an apartheid situation, is beyond the pale of rationality).

 

[The Corinthian]

Some more retractions/unsubstantiated claims etc here:

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[groovyalbert]

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Fecking disgusting. Horrible horrible sentiments that prevail everywhere. Hopefully these are just examples of the extremes/in the heat of the moment.

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[calodo2003]

The clock is already as close to midnight as it's ever been, measured in seconds now versus minutes in past fraught times. Times like the Cuban Missile Crisis, Able Archer, & the Gulf wars. It's at 90 seconds & that's with the Ukraine war already factored in. Frightening.

 

[Raoul]

Fecking disgusting. Horrible horrible sentiments that prevail everywhere. Hopefully these are just examples of the extremes/in the heat of the moment.

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If these were skinheads or neo-nazis there would be outrage..

 

[groovyalbert]

Some more retractions/unsubstantiated claims etc here:

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This looks like a pretty dangerous attempt to dismiss something that is truly horrific, even if the exact reportings possibly contestable. Good BBC long-piece on the massacre that doesn't reduce to a headline:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67065205

Edit - sorry, wrong link!

 

[calodo2003]

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LA Times has retracted the rape claim as it’s been unsubstantiated.

@Raoul @calodo2003 - I know this wasn’t one of the sources you provided but I imagine given the wording and phrases used, they all came from that Tablet article which would suggest it’s been made up / misinformation.

@Iker Quesadillas @hasanejaz88 fyi as well.

Hopefully soon stories will be found to be untrue, not just unsubstantiated.

 

[groovyalbert]

If these were skinheads or neo-nazis there would be outage.

With this particular faction of the "Pro-Palestinian Movement" (they're not, they're just antisemites) there's no difference.

 

[pierrethesnack]

The use of the Israeli flag will live in infamy (by the various EU/Western states). That was a state-to-apartheid-state decision. They could have condemnded Hamas, as they did, and called for a ceasefire (which they won't, or will hesitate too, another decision which will live in infamy) without using a flag associated directly with apartheid. Just a Ukrainian-add-on in EU non-think.

The problem isn't that they said they supported Israeli citizens, it's that they chose to make a state distinction and used a flag which they know, because they've all furthered and signed various resolutions vetoed by the US, is complicit, symbolically, in some of the worst acts of similar terror we witnessed just recently. You would never expect the Palestinian flag to be beamed (even when you get a rare "we stand with Palestinian victims" statement). It's just colonial, racist, horseshit by certain states. Entirely Orwellian in its doublethink implications and they know it (or do they?). One wonders.

I'm not sure what you expected. Even if the squabbling 27 managed to come up with something like this, half of them also need to consider the fact that they cannot possibly do or say anything that isn't in lockstep with Washington. We are very loyal like that.

 

[neverdie]

This looks like a pretty dangerous attempt to dismiss something that is truly horrific, even if the exact reportings possibly contestable. Good BBC long-piece on the massacre that doesn't reduce to a headline:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-67072901

None of it is substantiated. We all hope it didn't happen. Fact is, many children have died and will many more will be murdered as events continue. The selection process,, which is again without any surprise for English press standards, is apalling. They've chosen a "side". It's not journalism, it's propaganda.

 

[calodo2003]

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Christ almighty, imagine being the lackey bureaucrat who sat on that info.

 

[calodo2003]

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Decapitated babies is now also debunked.

@Raoul @Drainy

Great to hear.

 

[neverdie]

I'm not sure what you expected. Even if the squabbling 27 managed to come up with something like this, half of them also need to consider the fact that they cannot possibly do or say anything that isn't in lockstep with Washington. We are very loyal like that.

Expect the states to be above the passions of the majority (or actually, the minority as it goes) of their citizenry and abide by the very standards they themselves continually expound within/across the international arena. It was a joke.

 

[groovyalbert]

None of it is substantiated. We all hope it didn't happen. Fact is, many children have died and will many more will be murdered as events continue. The selection process,, which is again without any surprise for English press standards, is apalling. They've chosen a "side". It's not journalism, it's propaganda.

But then you get the same arguments from the other side in this regarding the BBC too. It's a more extreme version of how both Labour and Tory voters hate the BBC for not relaying what they want to hear. This is accurate wartime journalism in a time when reporting has incredible challenges. I guarantee you there are Israeli interpretations of this which will bemoan it for not being more forthright.

 

[berbatrick]

Is Zionism a form of white supremacy?

It's it's own thing, with a lot of intellectual history! I think they saw themselves as settlers and made explicit analogies to the (white, "civilising") settler project in the Americas.

I'd posted this here before, I think it's a really prescient text, and, for it's time, not particularly racist: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot
I would not call it white supremacy, his entire reasoning is that because Arabs are humans, like any other humans, they will not willingly leave their land, and so they must be violently destroyed.

The "tasty" excerpts about colonialism from him and the more mainstream founder are in this tweet, but I think that whole essay is worth reading

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[neverdie]

But then you get the same arguments from the other side in this regarding the BBC too. It's a more extreme version of how both Labour and Tory voters hate the BBC for not relaying what they want to hear. This is accurate wartime journalism in a time when reporting has incredible challenges. I guarantee you there are Israeli interpretations of this which will bemoan it for not being more forthright.

It's not that. The British press has been in lockstep with a top-down state approach with respect to the conflict for years. It's not comparable. What they published is propaganda. There's no other way of putting it. Any historian will tell you that. Until the fog of war clears and you can substantiate all the facts, what you've got is something that may have happened but has also been refuted many times over. It's junk reporting (but even worse insofar as it is intentional propagandization of a state's readership for an international audience).

There will be no "Israel has murdered a thousand Palestinian children" headline across these papers (within this conflict) nor a Palestinian flag projected across Downing Street. Propaganda, plain and simple. States should refrain.

Journalism sets itself one standard, propaganda sets itself another. No true journalistic standard would allow that story to pass (at this time).

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Christ almighty, imagine being the lackey bureaucrat who sat on that info.

No no, Bibi the cnut is 99% lying.

There is evidence that several heads of councils (like "mayors" of adjacent small villages) in southern Israel were sent messages- to their phoens- by Hamas, warning them of an attack from Gaza on the Jewish holidays (i.e sometimes between the end of September and the beginning of October).

This info was passed on to higher authorities. wasn't taken seriously.

 

[groovyalbert]

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Decapitated babies is now also debunked.

@Raoul @Drainy

Surely by the same logic Anadolu Agency should be noted as being a Turkish new agency that has close ties to Erdogan/AKP. Hardly a reliable source?

Sorry, just trying to work through all the info that's currently out there!

 

[calodo2003]

And expected fog of war atrocity claims that no one can verify but fine for either side because it goes viral (with one side having an edge) and then walking it back is something few ever care about.

Yep, the 'babies being thrown to the floor' version of this conflagration sure did go far & wide with rapidity, much more so than just CNN with the story way back yonder. Disappointed that I played my part in it.

 

[calodo2003]

No no, Bibi the cnut is 99% lying.

There is evidence that several heads of councils (like "mayors" of adjacent small villages) in southern Israel were sent messages- to their phoens- by Hamas, warning them of an attack from Gaza on the Jewish holidays (i.e sometimes between the end of September and the beginning of October).

This info was passed on to higher authorities. wasn't taken seriously.

But did it get all the way up to Bibi or his version of a Cabinet? To anyone with some sway with him?

 

[groovyalbert]

It's not that. The British press has been in lockstep with a top-down state approach with respect to the conflict for years. It's not comparable. What they published is propaganda. There's no other way of putting it. Any historian will tell you that. Until the fog of war clears and you can substantiate all the facts, what you've got is something that may have happened but has also been refuted many times over. It's junk reporting (but even worse insofar as it is intentional propagandization of a state's readership for an international audience).

There will be no "Israel has murdered a thousand Palestinian children" headline across these papers (within this conflict) nor a Palestinian flag projected across Downing Street. Propaganda, plain and simple. States should refrain.

Well obviously, Israel is a strategic ally of the UK - Downing Street/UK gov have nothing to do with it. That's a show of the current government's commitments and ties.

And you're wrong about the British press. There has been outrage by many members of the current government cabinet over the language being used - or more pertinently not used - by BBC reporters when discussing Hamas. But again, I guess this also comes down to consumers political stances. In this particular case, whether or not you think of Hamas as a terrorist organization or not.

 

[groovyalbert]

Is Zionism a form of white supremacy?

No because Zionists are not necessarily white?

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

But did it get all the way up to Bibi or his version of a Cabinet? To anyone with some sway with him?

supposedly, yes.
can't tell for sure.

Everything he says is driven by self-preservation. he sometimes speaks the truth, yeah.
No liar lies ALL the time, I'm aware of that.

but I'm much more inclined to believe those heads of local councils who state black on white,
having seen their residents slaughtered, that the government could have known if it wanted to know.

 

[groovyalbert]

supposedly, yes.
can't tell for sure.

Everything he says is driven by self-preservation. he sometimes speaks the truth, yeah.
No liar lies ALL the time, I'm aware of that.

but I'm much more inclined to believe those heads of local councils who state black on white,
having seen their residents slaughtered, that the government could have known if it wanted to know.

Netanyahu has majorly fecked things in all this - on both sides, for decades. This would be a fitting final act for him if the info was ignored. I expect it was.

 

[berbatrick]

not sure if this was posted here earlier, none of the other tweets actually had the original source for the claim (and even this only has a screenshot)

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also

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[neverdie]

And you're wrong about the British press

I'm not. I've studied that press for a lifetime. They're engaged in a propaganda campaign (from the top down). Any publishing those reports. I don't see the Guardian doing it (different standards). They've gone to shit over the years but still haven't gone completely insane (yet).

Well obviously, Israel is a strategic ally of the UK - Downing Street/UK gov have nothing to do with it. That's a show of the current government's commitments and ties.

It a show of illogicality, myopia, and general stupidity. They have more to gain from remaining consistent and neutral (as brokers rather than stokers). Not only would that be the ethical position to take, but the logically consistent position, with UK/International law/UN addresses, too.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

not sure if this was posted here earlier, none of the other tweets actually had the original source for the claim (and even this only has a screenshot)

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Yes, the first tweet at least, about intending to bomb trucks from Egypt, has been posted here.

I'm truly amazed at the millions (by guesswork) of Israelis who will find it easy to not particularly care/rejoice about the fact that 2M people are going to be treated like cockroaches.

What Hamas did made a lot of "central" and even left-leaning Israelis stop differentiating between their men and the average Gazan.

 

[groovyalbert]

I'm not. I've studied that press for a lifetime. They're engaged in a propaganda campaign (from the top down). Any publishing those reports. I don't see the Guardian doing it (different standards). They've gone to shit over the years but still haven't gone completely insane (yet).





It a show of illogicality, myopia, and general stupidity. They have more to gain from remaining consistent and neutral (as brokers rather than stokers). Not only would that be the ethical position to take, but the logically consistent position, with UK/International law/UN addresses, too.

Unfortunately it doesn't, Israel is a massive trading partner with the UK. They provide critical services across security, healthcare, water and far beyond. It's also a partner in developing opportunities for UK companies overseas. These are hugely important to the UK, especially post-Brexit. There simply is no equivalence in material senses in supporting Palestine/being neutral. And this isn't even to mention the need for an ally in the Middle East which Israel will always provide the West.

Ethically you have a point, but when has that been the driving factor in politics?