Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Iker Quesadillas]

I mean, no offense to Dagestan but I don't think they're education system and society is quite as "modern" as ours.

Probably. But this happened in the U.S. last month:

Approximately 200 protesters gathered on a tree-lined residential street on Staten Island on Thursday night, many with high-powered flashlights on hand. They wielded those flashlights like strobes, beaming bright, jerky light over police barriers, into the windows of a former school where around 60 asylum seekers are living temporarily. Meanwhile, a man named Johnny Tabacco, a bitcoin-guy-turned-Newsmax-host, wearing an oversized blue pinstripe suit and slicked-back hair, stood on a truck bed and bellowed in a gravelly voice through a PA system that was turned up so loud that this reporter’s ears were still ringing hours later. Tabacco, who is one of the organizers, conceded in a short interview later on that the decibel level was by design. The organizers wanted to send a deafening message to their new neighbors: “You’re not welcome here.”

https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7bpb3/staten-island-immigrants-protest

 

[4bars]

Unless I missed something Holocaust is a name, there is only one.

It has a meaning by itself, that is why it was named like that. Actually THE Holocaust fits losly into the description

 

[Roane]

Unless I missed something Holocaust is a name, there is only one.

Not according to dictionary definitions.

Holocaust has a general meaning but The Holocaust is specifically referring to what happened with the Jewish community


It has different meanings but as @Raoul says there is a Greek link to the meaning. It's from the meaning burnt offering

 

[JPRouve]

It synonymous with what happend in Germany and is branded as such, but it doesn't have to be used only in that context. The term itself is rooted in Greek iirc.

From a language standpoint it comes from greek but it's not a term that has an actual relevance in that context, it's a religious sacrifice. If we go with the strict greek definition then no, it's not an holocaust, nor was The Holocaust. The Holocaust in the way Roane is thinking, is a name that describe a particular genocide.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

It has nothing to do with education systems or modern societies. It's genuinely braindead human beings, the average human being regardless of where he is from isn't deprived of cognition which is why the vast majority of people don't act like that.

Also the same nonsense happens in "developed" countries.

Well, it does but I am sorry if you don't think there are cultural differences and cultural standards some nations or regions have where others don't.

 

[Drizzle]

I wonder what you will say if israel ends killing 100k. Where the goalposts will be

Then I'll change my view of course. It's not difficult, nor am I being dogmatic, just responding to facts.

But as per Raoul's instruction, I'll leave it now because I admit this whole discussion is not appropriate when there's a horrible war ongoing. My issue so often here is the extreme use of language, and I can see why some think I'm trying to minimise what's going on or somehow suggest it's really not that bad. That's not the case. I'm absolutely gutted about the whole thing, I'm hating every second of it and the tragedy both peoples are suffering. I get that people are extremely upset about it and that will inevitably lead to extreme language. Comparing this to the holocaust, I will never ever get on board with that, it's preposterous. But I'm hoping that it's not coming from a bad place in most cases.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Probably. But this happened in the U.S. last month:

Approximately 200 protesters gathered on a tree-lined residential street on Staten Island on Thursday night, many with high-powered flashlights on hand. They wielded those flashlights like strobes, beaming bright, jerky light over police barriers, into the windows of a former school where around 60 asylum seekers are living temporarily. Meanwhile, a man named Johnny Tabacco, a bitcoin-guy-turned-Newsmax-host, wearing an oversized blue pinstripe suit and slicked-back hair, stood on a truck bed and bellowed in a gravelly voice through a PA system that was turned up so loud that this reporter’s ears were still ringing hours later. Tabacco, who is one of the organizers, conceded in a short interview later on that the decibel level was by design. The organizers wanted to send a deafening message to their new neighbors: “You’re not welcome here.”

https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7bpb3/staten-island-immigrants-protest

Parts of the USA have a third-world level of literacy and cognition.

 

[JPRouve]

Well, it does but I am sorry if you don't think there are cultural differences and cultural standards some nations or regions have where others don't.

You would have a point if these type of things were limited to a particular culture or level of education unfortunately it's not the case. It's no different to far right morons in France who organize Rattonade or similar actions done all around the world by a minority of morons.

And these people are often as educated if not more educated than either of us. I have met a few in law school.

 

[2cents]

Not according to dictionary definitions.

Holocaust has a general meaning but The Holocaust is specifically referring to what happened with the Jewish community


It has different meanings but as @Raoul says there is a Greek link to the meaning. It's from the meaning burnt offering

What is the point of the question really? It’s like asking if what happened to the Karabakh Armenians in September is by definition a nakbah.

 

[africanspur]

No I stand by it. In the list of 21st century war crimes, this is pretty far down. I didn't say it wasn't on the list. And Hamas are on there too.

The numbers are horrible I agree. But they back up the fact this is sadly small fry compared to some other recent horrors.

How many people need to die or buildings obliterated or settlements built before this war crime is promoted up the leagues do you think?

Hamas are on there too and they're scum. One is rightly proscribed as a terrorist organisation by most countries around the world who's opinion matters. One is the largest recipient of military aid in the world, currently has its superpowers navy near by and had the 'moral' western politicians backing, especially initially, to do what they wanted to.

Is Hamas really who you want Israel to be compared to?

 

[Sly]

Throwback to Russia doing the same in Ukraine.

Exactly. Unfortunately I also saw the video of the kid getting shot. I find it hard to believe he was a terrorist, he was just walking, not plotting anything. There's no distinction between the countless videos my ukranian wife showed me of russian terror and the videos we are seeing everyday from Gaza and the West Bank. As left leaning western person, I just can't turn away and not condemn these atrocities like I condemned the Hamas attack.

I don't have any Palestinian or Muslim friends to discuss this with, there's a really low percentage of Muslim population in Portugal but I do have Jewish friends and at the moment it's impossible to discuss these matters with them. Most of them hate Netanyahu but they want their revenge for what happened in the Hamas attack. It's a desperate situation, where unfortunately I see no way out. Palestinians are going to suffer much more before the situation calms down.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Then I'll change my view of course. It's not difficult, nor am I being dogmatic, just responding to facts.

But as per Raoul's instruction, I'll leave it now because I admit this whole discussion is not appropriate when there's a horrible war ongoing. My issue so often here is the extreme use of language, and I can see why some think I'm trying to minimise what's going on or somehow suggest it's really not that bad. That's not the case. I'm absolutely gutted about the whole thing, I'm hating every second of it and the tragedy both peoples are suffering. I get that people are extremely upset about it and that will inevitably lead to extreme language. Comparing this to the holocaust, I will never ever get on board with that, it's preposterous. But I'm hoping that it's not coming from a bad place in most cases.

I'm not saying this and The Holocaust are the same thing. I'm saying that I'm shocked how other countries are letting this happen and used The Holocaust teachings I had as a kid lead to me asking that very question. Obviously many despicable things have happened in between and will happen going forward.

 

[Roane]

What is the point of the question really? It’s like asking if what happened to the Karabakh Armenians in September is by definition a nakbah.

I was reading through some of the posts and you've got one set using terms which the other set are taking exception to.

Genuinely aroused my curiousity so I asked the question.

These terms can be interchangeable.

Nakabah and holocaust have the same meaning to the two groups involved currently. As in catastrophe.

Again a word I hadn't given much thought to but looked into when you raised it here.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I wonder what you will say if israel ends killing 100k. Where the goalposts will be

That's easy. Call it fake numbers put out by Hamas.

 

[JPRouve]

I'm not saying this and The Holocaust are the same thing. I'm saying that I'm shocked how other countries are letting this happen and used The Holocaust teachings I had as a kid lead to me asking that very question. Obviously many despicable things have happened in between and will happen going forward.

The issue is that you can't fix this issue as an outsider easily without bloodying your hands and also lose some of your own nationals. You also need to have a higher level of integrity.

The reason being that both sides are "wrong", they both want more than they deserve and they are both stubborn enough to fight for it instead of sharing. Which means that whoever gets in the middle will have to face both sets of extremists but can't be heavy handed when responding to violence.

Personally I have more issue with western countries acting as if one side was righteous more than I have an issue with no one actually intervening because it's easy to see why no politician is ready to put his country in the middle of that mess.

 

[Drizzle]

I'm not saying this and The Holocaust are the same thing. I'm saying that I'm shocked how other countries are letting this happen and used The Holocaust teachings I had as a kid lead to me asking that very question. Obviously many despicable things have happened in between and will happen going forward.

Fair enough. Equating it to the holocaust is sometimes used in bad faith by some very nasty people which means I can get touchy about it, but I understand where you're coming from on this.

 

[2cents]

I was reading through some of the posts and you've got one set using terms which the other set are taking exception to.

Genuinely aroused my curiousity so I asked the question.

These terms can be interchangeable.

Nakabah and holocaust have the same meaning to the two groups involved currently. As in catastrophe.

Again a word I hadn't given much thought to but looked into when you raised it here.

You asked pretty much the same question in this thread in 2021 -https://www.redcafe.net/threads/isr...-more-discussion.438643/page-96#post-27228174

 

[Shez]

You got to see the answer to that in Darfur, Rwanda, Syria, Yemen etc etc. Hundreds of thousands slaughtered, starved, butchered. But whatever. Israel kills 7000 in response to a terrorist attack - it's the fecking holocaust again lads. Give me a break.

And this does not excuse it. They are perpetrating war crimes (as did Hamas) and they should be held to account. But the extremity of the language here is ridiculous.

They are people not skittles. How heartless are you.

You earlier told someone to educate themselves - learned authorities, scholars, the UN, Doctors Without Borders, a number of NGOs like stc have been raising the alarm bells of a possible genocide - we had 7 k deaths on Friday and that was before things intensified. Food and water shortages, lack of power - at what volume of innocents butchered do you want us to stop giving you a break ?

 

[Roane]

You asked pretty much the same question in this thread in 2021 -https://www.redcafe.net/threads/isr...-more-discussion.438643/page-96#post-27228174

I'd forgotten about that, but then it was 2 years ago.

Here though my issue wasn't the definition per se, rather that some folk are seeing that as simply being The Holocaust.

 

[JPRouve]

I'd forgotten about that, but then it was 2 years ago.

Here though my issue wasn't the definition per se, rather that some folk are seeing that as simply being The Holocaust.

I don't actually understand your issue. We have a generic word that describe this type of events which is genocide, holocaust doesn't have a superior meaning.

 

[Roane]

I don't actually understand your issue. We have a generic word that describe this type of events which is genocide, holocaust doesn't have a superior meaning.

I never claimed it did. There was someone getting upset about the term being used for the murder of Palestinians and my point was it can be used here as it's not exclusive to The Holocaust.

 

[JPRouve]

I never claimed it did. There was someone getting upset about the term being used for the murder of Palestinians and my point was it can be used here as it's not exclusive to The Holocaust.

But in that case why don't you just use the actual term instead of trying to alter one that is linked to a particular event when it has no actually added value?

 

[VorZakone]

They freed a hostage?

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Roane]

But in that case why don't you just use the actual term instead of trying to alter one that is linked to a particular event when it has no actually added value?

I said it can be used here and not to be conflated with The Holocaust.

I think genocide, ethnic cleansing and holocaust can be used to describe what's happening.

A poster writing it's the holocaust again lads seemed to imply that it's only to be used with what the Nazis did.

 

[Drizzle]

They are people not skittles. How heartless are you.

You earlier told someone to educate themselves - learned authorities, scholars, the UN, Doctors Without Borders, a number of NGOs like stc have been raising the alarm bells of a possible genocide - we had 7 k deaths on Friday and that was before things intensified. Food and water shortages, lack of power - at what volume of innocents butchered do you want us to stop giving you a break ?

Seriously, what are you talking about. This is a war crime and a tragedy and I've said it many times, in fact in the last hour or two. So sorry if I want to put it into context, and I dare to mention that it's not the worst thing that's ever happened. That it isn't another holocaust. That makes me 'heartless'? Get lost. Words have meaning.

 

[2cents]

I said it can be used here and not to be conflated with The Holocaust.

If you genuinely believe that then you’re incredibly naive.

 

[JPRouve]

Seriously, what are you talking about. This is a war crime and a tragedy and I've said it many times, in fact in the last hour or two. So sorry if I want to put it into context, and I dare to mention that it's not the worst thing that's ever happened. That it isn't another holocaust. That makes me 'heartless'? Get lost. Words have meaning.

You keep moving the goalpost since you shared that link. Below we have the post you responded to, it's not about the Holocaust nor does it says that it's the single worse exemple ever but simply that it's one of the worst which is factually true and supported by your wikipedia link which named it in the top 15 aka One of the Worst.

Israel is committing one of worst crimes of the century, and the rest of the 'civilized' world is just standing by and watching. I hope that at the very least, history will not be kind to them.

 

[Raoul]

I said it can be used here and not to be conflated with The Holocaust.

I think genocide, ethnic cleansing and holocaust can be used to describe what's happening.

A poster writing it's the holocaust again lads seemed to imply that it's only to be used with what the Nazis did.

Trouble is, the word itself is synonymous with the gassing/murder of 6m Jews in WW2, so it wouldn't work in other contexts, and would probably make whoever attempts applying it elsewhere appear provocative and disingenuous.

 

[stevoc]

If half of the videos that are coming out of Gaza are true, Isreal should be held responsible. War crimes of the highest order.

They should be but they won't be because that's the world we live in.

 

[nickm]

I said it can be used here and not to be conflated with The Holocaust.

I think genocide, ethnic cleansing and holocaust can be used to describe what's happening.

Ethnic cleansing, maybe yes. War crimes? Maybe, I will let the lawyers at the ICC decide that. Holocaust- I think that is just wrong and actually slightly repellent to use that word in this context.

Genocide - well you wouldn’t classify the bombing of Dresden or the firebombing of Tokyo as genocides, and as horrific as this is, it looks more to me like those things than genocide. I just don’t think genocide is a word to use lightly.

 

[Shez]

Seriously, what are you talking about. This is a war crime and a tragedy and I've said it many times, in fact in the last hour or two. So sorry if I want to put it into context, and I dare to mention that it's not the worst thing that's ever happened. That it isn't another holocaust. That makes me 'heartless'? Get lost. Words have meaning.

Yes they do - and someone with two functioning brain cells would be able to distinguish between ongoing activities and rapidly climbing death counts and one that happened in the past.
So yes you’re heartless but clearly that’s not the only thing missing.
Let’s wait on death counts to keep ratcheting up and only comment on it after it becomes a genocide. Words do have meaning - and it’s a pretty damning thing when actual responsible agencies are sounding the alarm bells. We do have a possible genocide on our hands unless preventive steps are taken and indiscriminate bombing is reigned in

 

[RedDevil@84]

Genocide - well you wouldn’t classify the bombing of Dresden or the firebombing of Tokyo as genocides, and as horrific as this is, it looks more to me like those things than genocide. I just don’t think genocide is a word to use lightly.

I don't think it is right to use WW attacks for comparison. The world has moved on since then and today invading nations are expected to fight in a certain way, rather than bomb the hell out of cities and kill large swathes of civilian population, just because they have the weapons to do that.

 

[jackal&hyde]

I don't think it is right to use WW attacks for comparison. The world has moved on since then and today invading nations are expected to fight in a certain way, rather than bomb the hell out of cities and kill large swathes of civilian population, just because they have the weapons to do that.

That is true. And it is also true that if you keep military installations beneath hospitals, etc is a war crime because you are inviting civilian deaths. This does not happen usually, unless for those that have zero care about their own people.

 

[That_Bloke]

Brilliant.

The bit about the inability to hold two truths at the same time (well, three in this case) is critical.

 

[stevoc]

That is true. And it is also true that if you keep military installations beneath hospitals, etc is a war crime because you are inviting civilian deaths. This does not happen usually, unless for those that have zero care about their own people.

What type of military installation under a hospital? What's the source for this?

 

[2cents]

PA Prime Minister on alleged Israeli plans for post-Hamas Gaza:

The Palestinian Authority will not return to governing Gaza after the Israel-Hamas conflict without a comprehensive agreement that includes the West Bank in a Palestinian state, the authority’s prime minister has said.​

​

Israeli civilian and military officials have said their plan for the end of the Gaza war is to have some form of transitional authority rule the territory, perhaps involving Arab states, leading to the restoration of the Palestinian Authority (PA), which was ousted from Gaza in a 2007 Hamas coup.​

​

But Mohammad Shtayyeh, who has been prime minister since 2019, said the PA would not cooperate without a return to a genuine peace process resulting in two sovereign states…​

…Shtayyeh argued that the Israeli need for someone else to run the territory in place of Hamas gives the international community a rare degree of leverage to return to a two-state solution that Netanyahu has systematically dismantled during his time in office.​

​

“The question for us – the Israelis, the Americans, the Europeans, everybody – is, how can we make out of this disaster an opportunity for peace?” he said.​

​

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-not-run-gaza-without-solution-for-west-bank

 

[jackal&hyde]

What type of military installation under a hospital? What's the source for this?

Every western secret service information unit, past proven history, the IDF, captured Hamas soldiers.

 

[That_Bloke]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Fecking braindead mob.

 

[do.ob]

PA Prime Minister on alleged Israeli plans for post-Hamas Gaza:

​

The Palestinian Authority will not return to governing Gaza after the Israel-Hamas conflict without a comprehensive agreement that includes the West Bank in a Palestinian state, the authority’s prime minister has said.​

​

Israeli civilian and military officials have said their plan for the end of the Gaza war is to have some form of transitional authority rule the territory, perhaps involving Arab states, leading to the restoration of the Palestinian Authority (PA), which was ousted from Gaza in a 2007 Hamas coup.​

​

But Mohammad Shtayyeh, who has been prime minister since 2019, said the PA would not cooperate without a return to a genuine peace process resulting in two sovereign states…​

​

…Shtayyeh argued that the Israeli need for someone else to run the territory in place of Hamas gives the international community a rare degree of leverage to return to a two-state solution that Netanyahu has systematically dismantled during his time in office.​

​

“The question for us – the Israelis, the Americans, the Europeans, everybody – is, how can we make out of this disaster an opportunity for peace?” he said.​

​

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-not-run-gaza-without-solution-for-west-bank

I guess that's an encouraging statement?!

 

[Raoul]

PA Prime Minister on alleged Israeli plans for post-Hamas Gaza:

​

The Palestinian Authority will not return to governing Gaza after the Israel-Hamas conflict without a comprehensive agreement that includes the West Bank in a Palestinian state, the authority’s prime minister has said.​

​

Israeli civilian and military officials have said their plan for the end of the Gaza war is to have some form of transitional authority rule the territory, perhaps involving Arab states, leading to the restoration of the Palestinian Authority (PA), which was ousted from Gaza in a 2007 Hamas coup.​

​

But Mohammad Shtayyeh, who has been prime minister since 2019, said the PA would not cooperate without a return to a genuine peace process resulting in two sovereign states…​

​

…Shtayyeh argued that the Israeli need for someone else to run the territory in place of Hamas gives the international community a rare degree of leverage to return to a two-state solution that Netanyahu has systematically dismantled during his time in office.​

​

“The question for us – the Israelis, the Americans, the Europeans, everybody – is, how can we make out of this disaster an opportunity for peace?” he said.​

​

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-not-run-gaza-without-solution-for-west-bank

This is where the UN could make themselves useful, by putting in peacekeeping troops to oversee the area, which would also allow other UN agencies to help. Not sure if the Israelis would go for it though, since they would want to keep security control of the strip until they receive guarantees leaving wouldn't allow another group to step in.