Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[frostbite]

No, I'm saying everyone knew it was coming because of how Israel has been behaving over the past five years in particular and decades if we really want to go through it. Examples of Israel bombing women and children? Endless. Give Hamas the weaponry Israel has and you might get a "nicer" form of what is always "murder". Look at the body counts and general conditions in the WB/Gaza over the past 15 years if you want the examples you don't have.

This sounds like excuses to me. You can also find reasons for Hitler and the Nazis in 1933, as you can find reasons for Hamas. But there is nothing positive in the Nazis and there is nothing positive in Hamas.

 

[neverdie]

Send me neutral content on the subject I’d be happy to listen.

It's been happening for years on end. Read through the thread. There are that many incidents, the last attack on Gaza as one example, that you'd stuggle to chronicle them on wikipedia.

 

[africanspur]

Notice that for the BBC, Palestinians 'die' while Israelis are 'killed'.

Also noticed that they've reported on the defence ministers comments on the siege of Gaza but have conveniently excluded his words calling them animals.

 

[africanspur]

This sounds like excuses to me. You can also find reasons for Hitler and the Nazis in 1933, as you can find reasons for Hamas. But there is nothing positive in the Nazis and there is nothing positive in Hamas.

Have you read scholeseythewise comments on this thread?

Can you also appreciate the difference between excuses/ justification and an understanding of the context in which something happens?

Having an understanding that the treaty of versailles would lead to a resurgent, angry and bitter Germany is not a defence of the Nazis or their actions. But it is a valid historical (and contemporary) analysis and one that played out. The two are not the same.

 

[neverdie]

This sounds like excuses to me. You can also find reasons for Hitler and the Nazis in 1933, as you can find reasons for Hamas. But there is nothing positive in the Nazis and there is nothing positive in Hamas.

I'll let someone else perhaps answer that but equating Hamas (Palestinian resistance) with a Holocaust regime is absurd.

For example, anyone who says Israel has a right to go in to Gaza or respond. That sounds like excuses to me. You can also find reasons (and so on). It was predicted. It would explode, you couldn't justify it, and Israel would retaliate, and that you cannot justify either. It's not an excuse. It's a sad indictment on the complete lack of movement regarding tangible solutions and no one ever holding Israel to account once the cameras leave.

 

[fergieisold]

Notice that for the BBC, Palestinians 'die' while Israelis are 'killed'.

Also noticed that they've reported on the defence ministers comments on the siege of Gaza but have conveniently excluded his words calling them animals.

Considering the circumstances is that surprising? If you were going to split between killed and died it’s clear which side it applies to.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Notice that for the BBC, Palestinians 'die' while Israelis are 'killed'.

Also noticed that they've reported on the defence ministers comments on the siege of Gaza but have conveniently excluded his words calling them animals.

BBC news homepage right now.

 

[The Corinthian]

You are trying to excuse what’s just happened. I’m genuinely interested if you have examples of Israel (in modern history) behaving like Hamas just did.

Abu Khdeir - 16 year old Palestinian murdered by Israeli savages:

autopsy conducted at the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute in Tel Aviv revealed that the teen had soot in his lungs, indicating that he was alive and breathing when he was set alight. He had been forced to swallow petrol beforehand.[51][52][53][54] The burns affected 90% of his body, and it appeared he had sustained head injuries from a beating and had been repeatedly hit in the head with a sharp object,[6][16][55] which at the time was alleged to have been a tire iron,[56] but is now alleged to have been a wrench

Israeli settlers killing a baby:

Right-wing Jewish extremist settlers near Nablus firebombed a Palestinian home on Thursday night, starting a fire which destroyed the house and burned a baby to death, as well as severely burning the baby’s four-year-old brother, mother and father.
The baby who was killed in the attack was about 18 months old. He was identified as Ali Saad Dawabsha.

Here's the aftermath of that incident - from Israeli savages:

This is precisely what Israeli Jewish settlers were doing yesterday, outside the court in Lod. “Ali was burned, where is Ali? Ali is on the grill!”, they chanted, in reference to the 18-month old baby Ali Dawbsheh, who was burnt alive by Jewish terrorists in the West Bank town of Duma in 2015. Ali’s mother Riham and father Saad died of their wounds a few weeks later. Of the family of four, only 5-year-old Ahmad survived the arson with severe burns.

Routine torture of Palestinians:

One major case, in which 20 men from Beita and Huwara were taken from their homes, gagged and bound hand and foot and then had their limbs broken with clubs,

Doing so with impunity:

people, including children, could be smeared with vomit or urine, be confined in a "coffin", be suspended by the wrists; be denied food and water or access to toilets, or be threatened to have their sisters, wives or mothers raped.[19] Methods, including torture, practiced also on Palestinian children were reported to persist with Amnesty International stating in 2018 that though over 1,000 complaints have been filed regarding these practices since 2001, "no criminal investigations were opened

Here's a report of how 40% of Palestinian children detained are sexually abused with virtually all tortured when in detainment:
40% of Palestinian Children Detained by Israel Sexually Abused; Virtually All Tortured (bennorton.com)

So please spare me the idiotic nonsense of how Israel are somehow holier than thou. Spare us your ignorance on the matter and read up on it at the very least.

 

[VorZakone]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[africanspur]

Considering the circumstances is that surprising? If you were going to split between killed and died it’s clear which side it applies to.

What circumstances? Have the Gazan civilians just ceased to exist then? Do they not also get killed?

It's quite clear that you've made your opinion of which side you fall on, despite admitting you don't follow it that closely.

 

[fergieisold]

Abu Khdeir - 16 year old Palestinian murdered by Israeli savages:


Israeli settlers killing a baby:


Here's the aftermath of that incident - from Israeli savages:


Routine torture of Palestinians:


Doing so with impunity:


Here's a report of how 40% of Palestinian children detained are sexually abused with virtually all tortured when in detainment:
40% of Palestinian Children Detained by Israel Sexually Abused; Virtually All Tortured (bennorton.com)

So please spare me the idiotic nonsense of how Israel are somehow holier than thou. Spare us your ignorance on the matter and read up on it at the very least.

Thanks, you rarely get anybody replying with sources.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[The Corinthian]

BBC news homepage right now.

This is on BBC's live feed right now:

• About 900 people have been killed in Israel since Saturday's surprise attack, including 260 people massacred by Hamas gunmen at a music festival
• Since Israel began striking Gaza in response, nearly 600 people have died

 

[africanspur]

BBC news homepage right now.

I'm not sure if that's the BBC news international home page but this is what's coming up on the UK:

Summary

1. Israel will use "enormous force" against the Hamas militant group, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has warned
2. He says the Israel Defense Forces' retaliation for the worst attack on Israeli soil in decades has only just begun
3. About 900 people have been killed in Israel since Saturday's surprise attack, including 260 people massacred by Hamas gunmen at a music festival
4. Since Israel began striking Gaza in response, nearly 600 people have died

Apologies I can't post a screenshot right now.

 

[neverdie]

Throw stones, get shot and killed by snipers.

Gaza clashes: Dozens killed as US opens Jerusalem embassy http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44104599

Here. Post one from this very thread. Israel and US break international law and dozens of Gazans murdered by Israeli snipers. Asking for sources of Israeli wrong-doing in this conflict is like asking someone to chronicle World War Two for you. It's everywhere. Of course Hamas/etc., wrongdoing also. No one disputes it. It's the assymetry in power relation which people tend to forget or just don't understand.

 

[fergieisold]

What circumstances? Have the Gazan civilians just ceased to exist then? Do they not also get killed?

It's quite clear that you've made your opinion of which side you fall on, despite admitting you don't follow it that closely.

No, they don’t cease to exist. Me admitting I don’t follow it that closely is trying to give everyone a caveat. My opinion may very well be incorrect.

 

[frostbite]

I'll let someone else perhaps answer that but equating Hamas (Palestinian resistance) with a Holocaust regime is absurd.

I'll repeat it: There is nothing positive in the ideology of the Nazis and there is nothing positive in the ideology of the Hamas.

You can find historical reasons why the Nazis were created and you can find historical reasons why Hamas was created. And I can see the "academic value" of discussing the reasons these were created. However, the fact remains that either of them have zero positive values and bring nothing positive to any humans, their followers included.

 

[neverdie]

I'll repeat it: There is nothing positive in the ideology of the Nazis and there is nothing positive in the ideology of the Hamas.

You can find historical reasons why the Nazis were created and you can find historical reasons why Hamas was created. And I can see the "academic value" of discussing the reasons these were created. However, the fact remains that either of them have zero positive values and bring nothing positive to any humans, their followers included.

I have no idea how to respond to that. Use the same logic and apply it to the Israeli occupation and whilst it works, technically, it's still bad logic and terrible comparison.

 

[Andy_Cole]

I'll repeat it: There is nothing positive in the ideology of the Nazis and there is nothing positive in the ideology of the Hamas.

You can find historical reasons why the Nazis were created and you can find historical reasons why Hamas was created. And I can see the "academic value" of discussing the reasons these were created. However, the fact remains that either of them have zero positive values and bring nothing positive to any humans, their followers included.

There is nothing positive about that ideology of Zionism.

 

[The Corinthian]

.

Have Jews historically been targeted and killed by their host nations, again and again and again? Yes.

Why should Palestinians Arab pay the price for what Nazi Germany did to Jews? Answer me that.

However the history of it came about, do think Israel has the right to exist now? Because it doesn't sound like it.

The history of it is inextricably linked to the State of Israel now. So I don't agree with the presupposition. I'd also love to hear how you done 2+2 and come up with 5 saying that 'it doesn't sound like it'.

 

[711]

Most Hamas actions have historically been to use terrorism to draw public attention to put a spotlight on their policy demands. This was little more than the latest example of this. The miscalculation bit is that they didn't think it through well enough - the ISIS style barbarism of cutting throats of teenagers at a dance party, raping Israeli girls, kidnapping 3 year olds and wheel chair bound elderly holocaust survivors etc. was only going to end one way for Hamas. So unless they were suicidal or stupid, this looks to be a massive miscalculation on their part.

I think you're missing that Hamas might just be hoping to provoke a response from Israel so massive that it acts as a recruiting sergeant for them, leaving them with more fighters and more support from around the world than they had before. They may well be wrong of course, but as time goes on people will remember the provocation less and the response more,
I wouldn't like to call it.

 

[The Corinthian]

There is nothing positive about that ideology of Zionism.

Agree - it's a fascist racist ideology.

 

[Werewolf]

This sounds like excuses to me. You can also find reasons for Hitler and the Nazis in 1933, as you can find reasons for Hamas. But there is nothing positive in the Nazis and there is nothing positive in Hamas.

To explain is not to excuse or justify. The following propositions can both be true at the same time:
i) The attack by Hamas is absolutely inhumane and barbarous
ii) The attack by Hamas can be understood as a consequence and a reaction to both the recent and long-term deterioration of the Palestinans' conditions in Gaza

Any explanation cannot not end with a given actor or agent, be it the Palestinians or the Israelis. One needs to take into account centuries of history in order to understand how the current situation has unfolded.

 

[Raoul]

I think you're missing that Hamas might just be hoping to provoke a response from Israel so massive that it acts as a recruiting sergeant for them, leaving them with more fighters and more support from around the world than they had before. They may well be wrong of course, but as time goes on people will remember the provocation less and the response more,
I wouldn't like to call it.

Recruiting won't matter if they don't exist anymore, which is the likeliest of results going forward. They may have hoped to use the Al-Qaeda style attack into Israel to help their cause, but it wouldn't count for much if Hamas ceases to exist and Gaza is reoccupied by Israel.

 

[VorZakone]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Sly]

Abu Khdeir - 16 year old Palestinian murdered by Israeli savages:


Israeli settlers killing a baby:


Here's the aftermath of that incident - from Israeli savages:


Routine torture of Palestinians:


Doing so with impunity:


Here's a report of how 40% of Palestinian children detained are sexually abused with virtually all tortured when in detainment:
40% of Palestinian Children Detained by Israel Sexually Abused; Virtually All Tortured (bennorton.com)

So please spare me the idiotic nonsense of how Israel are somehow holier than thou. Spare us your ignorance on the matter and read up on it at the very least.

this is horrible

 

[owlo]

Cutting through all the bullshit, Hamas are savages. It’s that simple.

When he's saying 'calm down' its hard to think of anything that would calm them other than a bullet in the back of his head.

I think you're missing that Hamas might just be hoping to provoke a response from Israel so massive that it acts as a recruiting sergeant for them, leaving them with more fighters and more support from around the world than they had before. They may well be wrong of course, but as time goes on people will remember the provocation less and the response more,
I wouldn't like to call it.

I think the response suits them. Either Israel uses fires and we see a level of destruction and death that would chill Putin, or they will see their forces massacred whilst mass killing civilians. A large scale ground incursion deep in Gaza is the nightmare scenario for any company commander.

 

[Drainy]

Why should Palestinians Arab pay the price for what Nazi Germany did to Jews? Answer me that.

What should have happened to the Jewish settlers who lived in mandatory Palestine?

 

[africanspur]

No, they don’t cease to exist. Me admitting I don’t follow it that closely is trying to give everyone a caveat. My opinion may very well be incorrect.

So why do they 'die' when Israelis are 'killed' or massacred?

Because when Israelis kill, there's always a good reason right and something to do with preceding events? And when Palestinians kill, it's because they're subhuman middle aged savages?

 

[adexkola]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

They're obviously whatabouting

 

[neverdie]

Recruiting won't matter if they don't exist anymore, which is the likeliest of results going forward. They may have hoped to use the Al-Qaeda style attack into Israel to help their cause, but it wouldn't count for much if Hamas ceases to exist and Gaza is reoccupied by Israel.

You'd have to eliminate the entire population of Gaza to oust Hamas. And if Hamas goes, another just pops up to take over what becomes a vacuum until some resolution is finally made. There is a mandate in Palestinian occupied territories for armed response to the occupation. It's terrible to watch, but that's the truth of the matter. It will exist even if Hamas disappears. Maybe it goes to IJ or a new group.

 

[Raoul]

So why do they 'die' when Israelis are 'killed' or massacred?

Because when Israelis kill, there's always a good reason right and something to do with preceding events? And when Palestinians kill, it's because they're subhuman middle aged savages?

That's probably because its framed through western media whose audiences are primarily interested in western themed narratives. The same applies to middle eastern media where audiences are interested in topics that speak to the interests of people in the middle east. Not always, but most of the time.

 

[Ragnar123]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

If they thought that international hostages would put pressure on Israel from those countries to moderate their retaliation, I think they completely miscalculated. All this achieves is a stronger Israeli support.

 

[Andersonson]

Israel should never have been created there in 48. It has been trouble ever since. What Hamas did was disgusting, disturbing and borderline terrorism. Then again, they are living in conditions you cant imagine created by the Israelian government. They have been blocked off, given little to no water at times and very limited resources. The whole thing is a clusterfeck and it has been a clusterfeck since 1948

 

[Raoul]

You'd have to eliminate the entire population of Gaza to oust Hamas. And if Hamas goes, another just pops up to take over what becomes a vacuum until some resolution is finally made. There is a mandate in Palestinian occupied territories for armed response to the occupation. It's terrible to watch, but that's the truth of the matter. It will exist even if Hamas disappears. Maybe it goes to IJ or a new group.

That's why they would have to reoccupy the land to avoid any residual Hamas or new movements emerging to replace them.

 

[neverdie]

That's why they would have to reoccupy the land to avoid any residual Hamas or new movements emerging to replace them.

They can't do it forever. If they reoccupy, they will leave at some stage.

 

[Ragnar123]

Israel should never have been created there in 48. It has been trouble ever since. What Hamas did was disgusting, disturbing and borderline terrorism. Then again, they are living in conditions you cant imagine created by the Israelian government. They have been blocked off, given little to no water at times and very limited resources. The whole thing is a clusterfeck and it has been a clusterfeck since 1948

And where would have been a better choice?

 

[The Corinthian]

And where would have been a better choice?

Europe? Where the majority of Jews were living anyway.

 

[neverdie]

And where would have been a better choice?

Germany? Surely the Germans were the ones who had to provide them with land after the Holocaust. Although it is pointless going that far back. There is going to be an Israel proper regardless, it's just about finding some settlement between that.

 

[Andersonson]

And where would have been a better choice?

Somewhere were the cultures match atleast a bit. Most of the population that moved to Israel in 48 were Europeans. They should have gotten land in Europe.