Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[MDFC Manager]

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'Anything' is not possible though. As in, no good outcome for the Palestinians. They'll get decimated again.

 

[NicolaSacco]

From just the clips recorded and released, add a guess at all those not recorded and its looking likely they've taken hundreds of hostages.

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I said as much earlier. We’ve seen so many examples of hostage taking in such a small amount of time that it’s unfortunately likely to be the tip of the iceberg.
I wonder if this is Hamas’s attempt at an insurance policy- ie assassinate our leaders and we will kill our hostages.

 

[NicolaSacco]

They'd be insane to do it, but they might just go ahead and annex the Gaza strip.

I might be misremembering but didn’t they already ‘own’ Gaza up until about 2006? And Ariel Sharon (of all people) relinquished control as it was unmanageable. If I’m wrong I’d love to know what actually happened that led me to form that memory.

 

[Simbo]

I said as much earlier. We’ve seen so many examples of hostage taking in such a small amount of time that it’s unfortunately likely to be the top of the iceberg.
I wonder if this is Hamas’s attempt at an insurance policy- ie assassinate our leaders and we will kill our hostages.

Has to be a main part of their strategy, human shields will be their most effective defence. I suppose filming as many hostages as possible is part of that strategy.

 

[Simbo]

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[Rado_N]

@Solius @Rado_N @golden_blunder @Damien @Niall are you guys going to allow someone to label Jewish people or Israelis as Nazis? Does that fly on redcafe.net?

I’ve not been a mod for about 7 years.

 

[Superden]

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/18/opinion/sometimes-nazi-is-the-right-word.html

 

[calodo2003]

Dozens & dozens of Israeli armed forces hostages, some command personnel in that number.

None being held hostage in Gaza currently & don't see how they could be smuggled over the border easily now.

Hopefully that might limit the effect a larger scale armed intervention would undoubtedly bring.

 

[Superden]

They'd be insane to do it, but they might just go ahead and annex the Gaza strip.

that would then lead to a single state solution, which would be a major problem for those who would to continue the apartheid..

 

[nimic]

Dozens & dozens of Israeli armed forces hostages, some command personnel in that number.

None being held hostage in Gaza currently & don't see how they could be smuggled over the border easily now.

Hopefully that might limit the effect a larger scale armed intervention would undoubtedly bring.

Israel is almost certainly rollig into Gaza either way. This won't be limited to air strikes.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Has to be a main part of their strategy, human shields will be their most effective defence. I suppose filming as many hostages as possible is part of that strategy.

Yep- stepping away from the human tragedy for a moment, this seems to have been a very well planned large scale operation from Hamas. There are already the obvious accusations flying around that Israel knew about this, and let it happen, in order to have a carte blanche to react. But perhaps the Israeli secret services simply didn’t consider Hamas to be capable of this, and so warning signs were ignored. Just a theory.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Israel is almost certainly rollig into Gaza either way. This won't be limited to air strikes.

This prospect worries me a lot. Gaza is very built up. Hamas will have had years to prepare for exactly this, so it could be a brutal battle with civilians stuck in the middle. The last thing we need is a situation where Netanyahu feels he is obligated to win, and win big.

 

[Superden]

This prospect worries me a lot. Gaza is very built up. Hamas will have had years to prepare for exactly this, so it could be a brutal battle with civilians stuck in the middle. The last thing we need is a situation where Netanyahu feels he is obligated to win, and win big.

A lot of people (like me) that absolutely support the palestinian cause, dont have much time for Hamas, either because of their links to Shia Iran / Hizbollah or their tactics. Whereas it seems there is unequivocal support for the actions of the IDF from those who are against the idea of a Palestine. And yet they want the moral high ground?

 

[adexkola]

Why is that the world shall revolve around Israel-Palestine conflict while there are millions of bad things and crimes happening in the world

...

Can I say you are a hypocrite since I suppose you never cared 3000 Burmese civilians killed by the burmese military Junta in one year and "normalized" the brutalities committed by the Junta?

I... never asked for the world to revolve around the Israel-Palestine conflict. It's one thing to be silent and not have anything to say about any issue at all. It's another thing to only speak up when big events happen, and pretend like those big events happen in a vacuum.

If I don't say anything about Burma at all I'm not a hypocrite. If I only wade into a Burma thread when an anti-junta fighter blows up a junta checkpoint and bemoan violence in then abstract and ignore said brutalities then yes, I'm a hypocrite.

 

[Newtonius]

What's interesting to me is a lot of the stories I'm seeing about it talk about the attempted rocket launches by Hamas in the headlines...not the going door to door and killing civilians. Talk about buring the lead.

This was always a pretty ironic topic too that in the age of progressive nativism the same people that would bring up colonialism will in the same breath go on about "Palestinian land" when its as much "Palestinian Land" as South africa or Australia is to the British. Arabs just aren't native to the middle east they exist because of the Arab conquest and genocide after the fall of the Eastern half of Rome.

 

[jojojo]

I've locked the thread to give people a little time to cool down and to read some of the reports that have come in complaining about posts/posters.

I recognise that emotions are running understandably high, but I ask everyone to respect the fact that emotions will be running high on all sides in this situation - particularly for those with family or friends who are likely to be directly impacted.

When it does reopen I will request that people try to moderate their own words.

 

[Raoul]

Update from BBC:

1. Dozens of Israelis are believed to have been captured by Palestinian militants in an unprecedented assault into Israeli territory
2. "We are at war," says Israel's PM Benjamin Netanyahu
3. At least 70 people in Israel have been confirmed killed, with hundreds of others being treated in hospitals, according to emergency services
4. Nearly 200 people have been killed in retaliatory Israeli strikes in the Gaza strip, officials there say
5. Hamas commander Mohammed Deif says the Palestinian militant group had "decided to say enough is enough"

 

[nimic]

Prediction: this thread would not have been re-opened if we lost today.

Hamas has told Norwegian broadcaster Nrk (and probably many others) that the goal of taking hostages was to force the release of palestinian prisoners. I'm not sure how realistic that is now...

 

[VorZakone]

Prediction: this thread would not have been re-opened if we lost today.

Hamas has told Norwegian broadcaster Nrk (and probably many others) that the goal of taking hostages was to force the release of palestinian prisoners. I'm not sure how realistic that is now...

Why wouldn't it be realistic? Israel would want their citizens back.

 

[VorZakone]

Had a scan through Israeli twitter. Netanyahu's government getting massive criticism. No idea what political leanings those twitter accounts had, mind.

 

[nimic]

Why wouldn't it be realistic? Israel would want their citizens back.

Because this was a lot more than just taking hostages. We're pretty much guaranteed an extreme response, maybe involving a full-scale invasion of Gaza. Hamas is going to take many times more losses than whatever prisoners they can get released, not to mention the many more civilians who will die.

 

[The Corinthian]

Had a scan through Israeli twitter. Netanyahu's government getting massive criticism. No idea what political leanings those twitter accounts had, mind.

He’s very unpopular due to the whole fiasco with the Supreme Court a few months back.

 

[nimic]

Had a scan through Israeli twitter. Netanyahu's government getting massive criticism. No idea what political leanings those twitter accounts had, mind.

A leader of the opposition has suggested forming some kind of unity government. I have no idea what that would realistically mean, or if it's even realistic.

 

[VorZakone]

Because this was a lot more than just taking hostages. We're pretty much guaranteed an extreme response, maybe involving a full-scale invasion of Gaza. Hamas is going to take many times more losses than whatever prisoners they can get released, not to mention the many more civilians who will die.

So...Israel abandons those Israeli hostages?

 

[NicolaSacco]

A lot of people (like me) that absolutely support the palestinian cause, dont have much time for Hamas, either because of their links to Shia Iran / Hizbollah or their tactics. Whereas it seems there is unequivocal support for the actions of the IDF from those who are against the idea of a Palestine. And yet they want the moral high ground?

I’m not sure what question you are asking here, and don’t want to get into an argument. I would say though, that I don’t know many people who are ‘against the idea of Palestine’. It’s usually much more nuanced than that, and you’re maybe viewing this in a far more binary way than it is in reality.

 

[Raoul]

Given the war declaration, I'm expecting a full on land war into Gaza in the coming days/weeks. Sadly, the amount of casualties will be staggering, and Hamas won't have any credibility to negotiate their way out of it.

 

[Super Hans]

What's interesting to me is a lot of the stories I'm seeing about it talk about the attempted rocket launches by Hamas in the headlines...not the going door to door and killing civilians. Talk about buring the lead.

This was always a pretty ironic topic too that in the age of progressive nativism the same people that would bring up colonialism will in the same breath go on about "Palestinian land" when its as much "Palestinian Land" as South africa or Australia is to the British. Arabs just aren't native to the middle east they exist because of the Arab conquest and genocide after the fall of the Eastern half of Rome.

Palestinian DNA is virtually identical to the DNA of people living in Sidon 3700 years ago. Tell me how that can be true if Palestinians are not native to the region

 

[maniak]

fecking depressing all around. I'll try to follow the news but I'm not going to watch any images, as depressing as the current terrorist images are, I suspect what's coming from gaza is going to be a lot worse. My mental health is not ready for it.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Thousands are going to die as a result of today. It's fecking desperate.

 

[VorZakone]

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[Ragnar123]

fecking depressing all around. I'll try to follow the news but I'm not going to watch any images, as depressing as the current terrorist images are, I suspect what's coming from gaza is going to be a lot worse. My mental health is not ready for it.

I don't think it gets worse than having desecrated women's bodies and israelian soldiers paraded around the city in trucks like dead cattle. This is the most evil form of barbarism and disrespect of human life I can imagine. Absolutely nothing distinguishes them from ISIS and other strone age barbarian groups.

That said, yeah it's extremly depressing because I have a feeling it's gonna get a lot worse in the future. Nobody can tell me, that all that is happening around the world is a pure coincidence. African military juntas visiting the Kremlin, shortly after coups in Africa, Hamas visited last year the Kremlin. Russia and Iran right now working together as close as never before probably. Both regimes are united by hatred of the West. They hate our prosperity, because it makes them feel inferior. Our democracy is a danger to their rule. Putin openly talks about the end of the colonial rule. They speak in the language of the Middle Ages, calling us Anglo Saxons. I'm pretty sure that the majority of today's misery towards the western world is orchestrated by Russia and Iran and I expect it to continue and even get worse.

 

[Simbo]

Dozens & dozens of Israeli armed forces hostages, some command personnel in that number.

None being held hostage in Gaza currently & don't see how they could be smuggled over the border easily now.

Hopefully that might limit the effect a larger scale armed intervention would undoubtedly bring.

I've seen a few clips of hostages within Gaza already. Unless you mean something else? They appearto control much of the border, no smuggling needed.

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[maniak]

I don't think it gets worse than having desecrated women's bodies and israelian soldiers paraded around the city in trucks like dead cattle. This is the most evil form of barbarism and disrespect of human life I can imagine. Absolutely nothing distinguishes them from ISIS and other strone age barbarian groups.

That said, yeah it's extremly depressing because I have a feeling it's gonna get a lot worse in the future. Nobody can tell me, that all that is happening around the world is a pure coincidence. African military juntas visiting the Kremlin, shortly after coups in Africa, Hamas visited last year the Kremlin. Russia and Iran right now working together as close as never before probably. Both regimes are united by hatred of the West. They hate our prosperity, because it makes them feel inferior. Our democracy is a danger to their rule. Putin openly talks about the end of the colonial rule. They speak in the language of the Middle Ages, calling us Anglo Saxons. I'm pretty sure that the majority of today's misery towards the western world is orchestrated by Russia and Iran.

As I said, I'll keep away from images for my own sake. Worse in terms of total numbers, the barbarism of the acts themselves to be honest is a competition with no winners so it doesn't interest me much.

 

[nimic]

So...Israel abandons those Israeli hostages?

Maybe? I don't know. They'll probably try to get them by force and "intelligence gathering".

 

[Cloud7]

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Surprised he hasn’t offered any “solutions” like he usually does

 

[adexkola]

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[Raoul]

I don't think it gets worse than having desecrated women's bodies and israelian soldiers paraded around the city in trucks like dead cattle. This is the most evil form of barbarism and disrespect of human life I can imagine. Absolutely nothing distinguishes them from ISIS and other strone age barbarian groups.

That said, yeah it's extremly depressing because I have a feeling it's gonna get a lot worse in the future. Nobody can tell me, that all that is happening around the world is a pure coincidence. African military juntas visiting the Kremlin, shortly after coups in Africa, Hamas visited last year the Kremlin. Russia and Iran right now working together as close as never before probably. Both regimes are united by hatred of the West. They hate our prosperity, because it makes them feel inferior. Our democracy is a danger to their rule. Putin openly talks about the end of the colonial rule. They speak in the language of the Middle Ages, calling us Anglo Saxons. I'm pretty sure that the majority of today's misery towards the western world is orchestrated by Russia and Iran and I expect it to continue and even get worse.

The ISIS reference will no doubt get played up by Netanyahu, as its been a Likud talking point for some time.

The Hamas strategy here appears to be:

1. Stop momentum of Israeli and Saudi Arabia normalizing relations, which would ostensibly normalize relations with most of the Arab world.
2. Do as much damage and destruction inside Israel.
3. Kill as many Israelis and take as many hostages as possible.
4. Use the spectacle of the Israeli counter attack on Gaza as propaganda to draw attention to the situation.

Unfortunately, it won't work and as with every previous rocket attack campaign, will result in the needless deaths of hundreds or thousands of people in Gaza.

 

[calodo2003]

I've seen a few clips of hostages within Gaza already. Unless you mean something else? They appearto control much of the border, no smuggling needed.

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Something I heard on an interview earlier & I hoped it was true. Looks to be the opposite.

 

[owlo]

I don't think it gets worse than having desecrated women's bodies and israelian soldiers paraded around the city in trucks like dead cattle. This is the most evil form of barbarism and disrespect of human life I can imagine. Absolutely nothing distinguishes them from ISIS and other strone age barbarian groups.

That said, yeah it's extremly depressing because I have a feeling it's gonna get a lot worse in the future. Nobody can tell me, that all that is happening around the world is a pure coincidence. African military juntas visiting the Kremlin, shortly after coups in Africa, Hamas visited last year the Kremlin. Russia and Iran right now working together as close as never before probably. Both regimes are united by hatred of the West. They hate our prosperity, because it makes them feel inferior. Our democracy is a danger to their rule. Putin openly talks about the end of the colonial rule. They speak in the language of the Middle Ages, calling us Anglo Saxons. I'm pretty sure that the majority of today's misery towards the western world is orchestrated by Russia and Iran and I expect it to continue and even get worse.

There's been some shocking footage out there today. Often making the Ukrainian stuff look tame because the Palestinians are proud of it so posting it themselves.

I don't think you can blame Russia here; they don't benefit from Israeli instability these days. Atmospheres in the Russian sphere are pro Israel currently, ranging from 'kill them all' to 'this is why we had to invade ukraine, before they did this to us.'

The ISIS reference will no doubt get played up by Netanyahu, as its been a Likud talking point for some time.

The Hamas strategy here appears to be:

1. Stop momentum of Israeli and Saudi Arabia normalizing relations, which would ostensibly normalize relations with most of the Arab world.
2. Do as much damage and destruction inside Israel.
3. Kill as many Israelis and take as many hostages as possible.
4. Use the spectacle of the Israeli counter attack on Gaza as propaganda device to draw attention to the situation.

Unfortunately, it won't work and as with every previous rocket attack campaign, will result in the needless deaths of hundreds or thousands of people in Gaza.

The Hamas strategy is no strategy. They seem to think they've learned the lessons of urban warfare from the Ukraine war and are using many of the same tactics, hence the bluster. But it's going to result in disaster, because Israel can't afford to not massively retaliate.

 

[Raoul]

There's been some shocking footage out there today. Often making the Ukrainian stuff look tame because the Palestinians are proud of it so posting it themselves.

I don't think you can blame Russia here; they don't benefit from Israeli instability these days. Atmospheres in the Russian sphere are pro Israel currently, ranging from 'kill them all' to 'this is why we had to invade ukraine, before they did this to us.'



The Hamas strategy is no strategy. They seem to think they've learned the lessons of urban warfare from the Ukraine war and are using many of the same tactics, hence the bluster. But it's going to result in disaster, because Israel can't afford to not massively retaliate.

Yeah, the Ukraine war has really brought to light the effectiveness of drones, which Hamas appear to have used in this attack as well. Can't see any other result of this than a full on Israeli takeover of Gaza at this point, as anything short of that will be seen as weakness that emboldens more future attacks. Also worth bearing in mind that we're dealing with Netanyahu here, not Lapid or Bennett.