Italian parliamentary elections

[nimic]

Anyone following this? The elections are taking place on the 25th. I haven't been paying a lot of attention, but it does appear that the right is going to win. What's more, the biggest party is probably going to become Brothers of Italy, a very right-wing party with Fascist origins. I heard a speech from their leader and likely next Prime Minister, Giorgia Meloni, and it gave me really bad vibes.

It looks like we can add another far-right election victory to the European and global trends. Maybe I'm being hysterical because I don't live in Italy and don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

I watched the segment from the Mehdi Hasan Show the other day. It is just terrifying to see those far-right parties winning the Swedish election and soon the Italian election. As usual, minorities and immigrants will pay the price for the shitty rhetoric.

It's also bad in my home province in Canada when most party leaders speak about restricting immigration HARD even though we are in a deep hole of labor shortage. Feckers are trying to make us believe in unicorns rather than go for what is practical and no-nonsense for the future.

 

[horsechoker]

It might be some comfort that most Italian governments falter and coalitions collapse.

However the right is expected to get a sizeable chunk of the vote and the parties of the right may avoid fracturing.

It's worrying all the same.

 

[Cheimoon]

I watched the segment from the Mehdi Hasan Show the other day. It is just terrifying to see those far-right parties winning the Swedish election and soon the Italian election. As usual, minorities and immigrants will pay the price for the shitty rhetoric.

It's also bad in my home province in Canada when most party leaders speak about restricting immigration HARD even though we are in a deep hole of labor shortage. Feckers are trying to make us believe in unicorns rather than go for what is practical and no-nonsense for the future.

Legault's comments on immigration and the problems he thinks it causes (violence, fractured society, etc.) are positively sickening. And the worst part is that many boomers totally agree (in my experience at least). It will be a while before that sentiment loses its power in Quebec.

Anyway, yeah, quite concerning in Italy. Although it also seems that Meloni's main attraction might be that she's not been in any kind of government yet. Or at least, the analysis I read put that forward as a major factor working in her advantage. I hope that's it rather than really deep-seated fascist sympathies among a significant portion of the Italian electorate.

 

[nimic]

Legault's comments on immigration and the problems he thinks it causes (violence, fractured society, etc.) are positively sickening. And the worst part is that many boomers totally agree (in my experience at least). It will be a while before that sentiment loses its power in Quebec.

Anyway, yeah, quite concerning in Italy. Although it also seems that Meloni's main attraction might be that she's not been in any kind of government yet. Or at least, the analysis I read put that forward as a major factor working in her advantage. I hope that's it rather than really deep-seated fascist sympathies among a significant portion of the Italian electorate.

She's been a government minister, actually, under Berlusconi (because of course it was).

 

[WPMUFC]

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[11101]

After four years of living there this sort of thing no longer worries me, because within about 6 months the whole lot will have collapsed and there will be a new government. There is a constant stream of new PMs and there is always a sprinkling of the far right in government.

Having said there have been plenty of warnings over the last decade that pandering to the left too much on various topics will embolden the far right, as most people lean closer to the right than the left. How many countries is it now where far right parties have gotten very close to real power?

 

[neverdie]

there have been plenty of warnings over the last decade that pandering to the left too much on various topics will embolden the far right

are there any examples, even one or two, in the recent history of western economic policy where the ruling powers or governments have pandered to the left? i'm struggling to think of one. the ten years that you speak of was the decade of austerity. was there a lot of pandering to the left in that period of time? sort of impossible by definition, isn't it?

 

[nimic]

Having said there have been plenty of warnings over the last decade that pandering to the left too much on various topics will embolden the far right, as most people lean closer to the right than the left. How many countries is it now where far right parties have gotten very close to real power?

This is the ultimate enlightened centrist argument. It wasn't true in the run-up to WW2, and it's not true now.

 

[Red the Bear]

Nothing major will happen in the areas you lot seem to worry about, it never does.

 

[Cheimoon]

Nothing major will happen in the areas you lot seem to worry about, it never does.

What areas? In not sure what you're referring to.

 

[nimic]

Nothing major will happen in the areas you lot seem to worry about, it never does.

What exactly never happens? Didn't half the US ban abortion just now? There was also an attempt to violently stop a transfer of power after the last elections, which in all likelihood involved the same candidate who is going to run next time too. Hungary is by some definitions no longer classified as a democracy. Russia has gone even deeper on the religious national conservatism, and is currently engaged in a war of conquest against another European country. The UK left the EU and is currently trying to send asylum seekers to Rwanda. These aren't just words written on a football forum, they're real things that have serious consequences for real people.

 

[nimic]

You're well aware of the abortion issue, since you yourself participated heavily in the thread on it. I can only assume you're trolling here when you're saying "nothing major will happen".

C : abortion is still a reprehensible act that no expedient matter will excuse its existence in my opinions.

 

[Red the Bear]

What areas? In not sure what you're referring to.

Going off by what's been previously posted i imagine it mostly meant a ban or at least limiting the influx of immigration in the long term and the Italian political scene veering more to the far right or fascism whichever way you classify it.

I just don't see it, Italian governments seem to be shakey and in theory this is a horrible time to get in power as I think we're heading for a global recession and that environmental is not favorable to those in power at all and I genuinely doubt in government elected in such a state will be capable of preserving itself.

What exactly never happens? Didn't half the US ban abortion just now? There was also an attempt to violently stop a transfer of power after the last elections, which in all likelihood involved the same candidate who is going to run next time too. Hungary is by some definitions no longer classified as a democracy. Russia has gone even deeper on the religious national conservatism, and is currently engaged in a war of conquest against another European country. The UK left the EU and is currently trying to send asylum seekers to Rwanda. These aren't just words written on a football forum, they're real things that have serious consequences for real people.

You're well aware of the abortion issue, since you yourself participated heavily in the thread on it. I can only assume you're trolling here when you're saying "nothing major will happen".

No I'm not trying to troll anyone as explained beforehand and I think you're severely overstating some of those points, Russia is no more visibly authoritarian than it was before the war and its been so as long as I remember it, I don't even think you could call it democratic under yeltsin. Eastern Europe has always been destabilized since the soviet union collapsed (and even beforehand) so this too is not that big of a shock and on your last point is still quite insignificant considering that uk's net immigration for last year was not that much different from the previous years, I won't answer the part about us as I rather not get in the abortion debate again.


We're definitely living in relatively turbulent times which may plunge the world in chaos if we do go into a global recession but as of now I doubt it's any more worrying than the break up of the soviet union and wars resulting from it or the destabilizing effect the Iraq war and the ensuing recession had on the region and world and its surely no worse than cold war years where each region of the world had it's crises to handle although I concede that we may reach those levels if a previously mentioned global recession happens .

With all that said I hold that I doubt this Italian parliamentary election or the Swedish one for that matter will have a major long term effects.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

Nothing major will happen in the areas you lot seem to worry about, it never does.

That is what they said about Poland before the adoption of the full ban on abortion and about Hungary when Victor Orban arrived. That mindset above has aged like milk in those 2 cases.

 

[Red the Bear]

That is what they said about Poland before the adoption of the full ban on abortion and about Hungary when Victor Orban arrived. That mindset above has aged like milk in those 2 cases.

Both in eastern Europe where they've spent most of their existence under authoritarian rule, if anything the democratic rule was an aberration.

I don't see anything major happening while western Europe still enjoys a relatively decent living standard, big change mostly happens when people get desperate.

On the abortion issue that you specifically referenced Italy had a redrandum on the issue back when the country was probably more conservative on the whole and it failed, i can't see how that's gonna change now with most of the older conservative generation dead.

 

[Rajma]

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[nimic]

Both in eastern Europe where they spent most of their existence under authoritarian rule

Definitely the worst Prince of Bel Air intro I've heard.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

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One small cathedral was not enough, Silvio? Do you need a second?

 

[coolredwine]

Anyone following this? The elections are taking place on the 25th. I haven't been paying a lot of attention, but it does appear that the right is going to win. What's more, the biggest party is probably going to become Brothers of Italy, a very right-wing party with Fascist origins. I heard a speech from their leader and likely next Prime Minister, Giorgia Meloni, and it gave me really bad vibes.

It looks like we can add another far-right election victory to the European and global trends. Maybe I'm being hysterical because I don't live in Italy and don't know what I'm talking about.

No Italian govt has completed its full term, so there's that too.

 

[Penna]

The lack of pragmatism of the Five Star Movement is astounding to me. They allowed the previous government to fall, knowing this would happen. I despair of seeing Salvini back in a powerful position, he's far scarier than Meloni or Berlusconi.

Our region already has a Fratelli d'Italia president, unfortunately. We can't vote of course as we're not Italian citizens, but it's bound to impact us in some way (as we're immigrants, even though we have retained our pre-Brexit rights).

 

[Cheimoon]

Going off by what's been previously posted i imagine it mostly meant a ban or at least limiting the influx of immigration in the long term and the Italian political scene veering more to the far right or fascism whichever way you classify it.

I just don't see it, Italian governments seem to be shakey and in theory this is a horrible time to get in power as I think we're heading for a global recession and that environmental is not favorable to those in power at all and I genuinely doubt in government elected in such a state will be capable of preserving itself.

I agree that the new government (whatever new government, really) is likely to self-destruct pretty soon, as that simply seems to be unavoidable in Italy's current political climate. They can do some real damage in the meantime though. Immigrants will be screwed over (new arrivals as well as immigrants that have already been accepted into the country. Any neoliberal measures (privatization of companies, tax decreases) will be felt economically for a long time to the detriment of the lower income groups (as always with rightist economic policies). Any development towards greening the Italian economy and society is likely to slow down significantly, to the detriment of all of us (and the Italian economy in the long term). And so on. Oh, and obviously, a Meloni win will embolden the racists and fascists to come out more in the open, which is poison.

They might not be able to get these things very far in the time they're in power, but I do think they can do some real damage in these and other areas.

 

[sun_tzu]

So.... Quitaly?

Is it on the cards

 

[Fluctuation0161]

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Concerning.

 

[VidaRed]

I watched the segment from the Mehdi Hasan Show the other day. It is just terrifying to see those far-right parties winning the Swedish election and soon the Italian election. As usual, minorities and immigrants will pay the price for the shitty rhetoric.

It's also bad in my home province in Canada when most party leaders speak about restricting immigration HARD even though we are in a deep hole of labor shortage. Feckers are trying to make us believe in unicorns rather than go for what is practical and no-nonsense for the future.

When luxuries are reduced or taken away the mask slips off.

 

[Red the Bear]

Definitely the worst Prince of Bel Air intro I've heard.

I'm gonna pretend to know what that means

I agree that the new government (whatever new government, really) is likely to self-destruct pretty soon, as that simply seems to be unavoidable in Italy's current political climate. They can do some real damage in the meantime though. Immigrants will be screwed over (new arrivals as well as immigrants that have already been accepted into the country. Any neoliberal measures (privatization of companies, tax decreases) will be felt economically for a long time to the detriment of the lower income groups (as always with rightist economic policies). Any development towards greening the Italian economy and society is likely to slow down significantly, to the detriment of all of us (and the Italian economy in the long term). And so on. Oh, and obviously, a Meloni win will embolden the racists and fascists to come out more in the open, which is poison.

They might not be able to get these things very far in the time they're in power, but I do think they can do some real damage in these and other areas.

Maybe but I think it's far more likely for them to accomplish nothing and be gone before even completing their term.

But the election isn't over yet so who knows, they might not even get in to power so let's see what happens.

 

[Penna]

So.... Quitaly?

Is it on the cards

No, because we get too much money from the EU. The right will sabre-rattle and posture, but I think that'll be the limit of it.

 

[sun_tzu]

No, because we get too much money from the EU. The right will sabre-rattle and posture, but I think that'll be the limit of it.

I thought Italy was still a net contributor not beneficiary
Admittedly this is 2018 but I would have thought brexit required Italy to make up some of the uk shortfall?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.statista.com/chart/amp/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/

 

[Penna]

I thought Italy was still a net contributor not beneficiary
Admittedly this is 2018 but I would have thought brexit required Italy to make up some of the uk shortfall?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.statista.com/chart/amp/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/

Italy got a shedload of dosh after Covid. Some of it comes later with caveats, but the total sum is €200bn.

 

[11101]

This is the ultimate enlightened centrist argument. It wasn't true in the run-up to WW2, and it's not true now.

Yet here we are with multiple countries experiencing surges in support for right wing parties as people cite specific liberal policies for pushing them that way.

 

[phelans shorts]

Yet here we are with multiple countries experiencing surges in support for right wing parties as people cite specific liberal policies for pushing them that way.

The right get surges because the right controls the narrative via the likes of Murdoch, Burlesconi etc…

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

Legault's comments on immigration and the problems he thinks it causes (violence, fractured society, etc.) are positively sickening. And the worst part is that many boomers totally agree (in my experience at least). It will be a while before that sentiment loses its power in Quebec.

A really long while indeed. In the past, we had 2 main positions in Quebec: either seeking independence (a little bit like Scotland with the SNP now) or remain to become stronger within Canada. Those positions and the ensuing debates never spilled into demonizing immigrants and people who are not of French Quebecois descent at all. I would have taken back any of the previous premiers for all their qualities and flaws. Things were far more peaceful and more respectful with them, before Legault became Quebec's premier - one who is stuck neck deep into tropes and the nostalgia of an era long gone.

/off-topic.

I agree that the new government (whatever new government, really) is likely to self-destruct pretty soon, as that simply seems to be unavoidable in Italy's current political climate. They can do some real damage in the meantime though. Immigrants will be screwed over (new arrivals as well as immigrants that have already been accepted into the country. Any neoliberal measures (privatization of companies, tax decreases) will be felt economically for a long time to the detriment of the lower income groups (as always with rightist economic policies). Any development towards greening the Italian economy and society is likely to slow down significantly, to the detriment of all of us (and the Italian economy in the long term). And so on. Oh, and obviously, a Meloni win will embolden the racists and fascists to come out more in the open, which is poison.

They might not be able to get these things very far in the time they're in power, but I do think they can do some real damage in these and other areas.

Very much this. As we have seen in recent years anywhere in the world, it doesn't take long for one horrible government to do a lot of damage to satisfy the small base and then embolden the lowest of the low in the meantime. Every single time that happens, it takes several years to undo the damage.

Salvini already did quite a lot of damage to Italy's reputation when he went that hard against topics such as same-sex marriage, civil unions, adoption and anti-discrimination laws on top of being a cruel person in the face of human distress with the migrants seeking asylum. Moreover his economic policies (flat tax, tax cuts, fiscal federalism, protectionism, etc.) have hurt lower income groups really hard. The worst that can happen is that Meloni will look forward to finish what Salvini started, especially when some people like Berlusconi (pro-Putin cnut) are pulling the strings behind.

 

[nimic]

Yet here we are with multiple countries experiencing surges in support for right wing parties as people cite specific liberal policies for pushing them that way.

Liberals aren't the left in Europe, so if they're citing specific liberal policies then you're actually blaming the centre, not the left.

Either way it's a bad argument, and historically inaccurate.

 

[Cheimoon]

Yet here we are with multiple countries experiencing surges in support for right wing parties as people cite specific liberal policies for pushing them that way.

Like which policies?

You seem to equate 'left' with 'liberal', which is questionable (as @nimic said). I'm thinking you are rather thinking of the neoliberal policies that have left many people behind in society - to which now the right somehow manages to convincingly respond by further rightist policy. In my view, the problem here is that the right (neoliberalism in particular) has been so dominant in political discourse that its basic tenets have become undebatable (socialism has even become a bad word; go back a century and it really wasn't), so that people's attention is deflected instead to identity politics and stopgaps as solutions.

And that's why I'm asking 'which policies' - cause I don't see what actual leftist policies are around that people are unhappy with. I'd love to see your examples.

A really long while indeed. In the past, we had 2 main positions in Quebec: either seeking independence (a little bit like Scotland with the SNP now) or remain to become stronger within Canada. Those positions and the ensuing debates never spilled into demonizing immigrants and people who are not of French Quebecois descent at all. I would have taken back any of the previous premiers for all their qualities and flaws. Things were far more peaceful and more respectful with them, before Legault became Quebec's premier - one who is stuck neck deep into tropes and the nostalgia of an era long gone.

Yeah, it's an unfortunate development in Quebec. In a way, Quebec is changing politically by leaving the sovereignty discussion behind and switching to a more traditional left/right division. (Which is why the PQ is basically disappearing: they haven't chosen and now basically stand for nothing but sovereignty.) Unfortunately, it's now showing that underneath everything else, a large part of the Quebec electorate has become pretty centre-right with a strong streak of xenophobia. I just hope that Charest-Couillard-Legault represents another Duplessis era, and another Lesage-Lévesque era is just around the corner.

 

[Penna]

This old man's sign - "I was born under Mussolini. I don't want to die under Meloni. God help us."

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[horsechoker]

The Guardian:

According to the Consorzio Opinio Italia poll for Rai, the rightwing coalition has won between 41-45% of the vote and the left alliance on 25-29.%.

 

[Sweet Square]

The Guardian:

According to the Consorzio Opinio Italia poll for Rai, the rightwing coalition has won between 41-45% of the vote and the left alliance on 25-29.%.

 

[horsechoker]

The Guardian:

According to the Consorzio Opinio Italia poll for Rai, the rightwing coalition has won between 41-45% of the vote and the left alliance on 25-29.%.

They've added

"At this point we should make our regular health warning: Italian exit polls have a very chequered history, and are sometimes wrong. It’s well worth waiting for the projections to come."

However with all the polls before the election predicting a big right-wing I'd be surprised if the exit poll was far off the mark.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Having said there have been plenty of warnings over the last decade that pandering to the left too much on various topics will embolden the far right, as most people lean closer to the right than the left. How many countries is it now where far right parties have gotten very close to real power?

Seriously can we stop this utterly delusional and dangerous bullshit?

The past decade has seen the far right being ‘pandered to’, and the left increasingly marginalised and trodden on.

We are literally in a new age of modern fascism and far right domination - idiotic, insane policies the World over are mobilised via far right rhetoric that idiotic bigots gobble up and then get fecked by and it isn’t ‘because the left’.

It has nothing to do with the fecking left - take some responsibility.

 

[VorZakone]

So why has Meloni and her party attracted voters? What caused this?