Italian parliamentary elections

[Penna]

So why has Meloni and her party attracted voters? What caused this?

Same arguments that have always allowed far-right populists to get into power - some nebulous feelings of "we could be great again if only we protected our borders", appealing to the very poor (Salvini has pledged to abolish VAT on some staple foods, like bread, milk and pasta), a return to "family values" (meaning only the traditional nuclear family), moving away from progressive social policies (like those which provide support for LGBT people and migrants).

However, what this means in practice is what we've already seen in other European countries and Trump's USA.

 

[P-Ro]

So why has Meloni and her party attracted voters? What caused this?

She's fit.

 

[calodo2003]

So how far right is this prime minister / ruling party to be in control? Le Pin level?

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

So how far right is this prime minister / ruling party to be in control? Le Pin level?

Yep, pretty much. The worst is how many other far-right figures are also controlling their share from the shadows, like Silvio "Putin's Ass-Kisser" Berlusconi. The poor and the underprivileged will be the ones suffering the most (again) from this severe disconnection with reality.

 

[calodo2003]

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[little.triangles]

If Putin had waited a year or two for his invasion, things might have turned out differently for him.

There is a definitive right wing turn in Europe (and across the world). Brace yourselves for the years and decades ahead. There will be wars for basic resources, a warming planet, ecological collapse, and you bet the right wingers will exploit it best even though they caused the sh*tshow in the first place.

 

[coolredwine]

If Putin had waited a year or two for his invasion, things might have turned out differently for him.

There is a definitive right wing turn in Europe (and across the world). Brace yourselves for the years and decades ahead. There will be wars for basic resources, a warming planet, ecological collapse, and you bet the right wingers will exploit it best even though they caused the sh*tshow in the first place.

Portugal: left
Spain: left
France: centre
Holland: centre
Germany: left

just because a far right won in Italy, there’s a definitive right wing turn?

 

[berbatrick]

Portugal: left
Spain: left
France: centre
Holland: centre
Germany: left

just because a far right won in Italy, there’s a definitive right wing turn?

Spain's govt will fall soon and the replacement coalition will include Francoists (Vox). Germany's is deeply unpopular. Holland's is under challenge from the right. Don't know enough about Portugal. Macron is stable.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

Portugal: left
Spain: left
France: centre
Holland: centre
Germany: left

just because a far right won in Italy, there’s a definitive right wing turn?

Italy, Sweden, Poland, Hungary (re-elected) and Austria are either already under far-right governments or making a hard shift to the right in recent years. Spain is not far behind.

 

[4bars]

Portugal: left
Spain: left
France: centre
Holland: centre
Germany: left

just because a far right won in Italy, there’s a definitive right wing turn?

Spanish socialist has only that on the name. Beside some make up left policies, they are center at best

They needed 3 hanging elections to get in the power as they couldnt form government and the next soon elections the right wing and far right wing will sweep

 

[Siorac]

Spain's govt will fall soon and the replacement coalition will include Francoists (Vox). Germany's is deeply unpopular. Holland's is under challenge from the right. Don't know enough about Portugal. Macron is stable.

And let's face it, the right has dominated politics in the Western world since, well, Reagan, pretty much. The "left's" biggest successes were the likes of Clinton, Obama, Tony Blair, or Putin's best friend Schröder... in other words, stone-cold neoliberals who would never dare to challenge the economic orthodoxy established in the 80s and whose leftism amounted to not wanting to kill gay people or forcing 10-year-old rape victims to give birth.

 

[little.triangles]

Italy, Sweden, Poland, Hungary (re-elected) and Austria are either already under far-right governments or making a hard shift to the right in recent years. Spain is not far behind.

Not to mention England where the government is already right-wing in its economic policy and has been chipping away at the successes of the left like the NHS. Brexit was the beginning of a turn towards the right politically too. Things can change very fast, and they have been changing usually for the worse in recent years everywhere (India, US, Brazil etc.)

@coolredwine

 

[horsechoker]

And let's face it, the right has dominated politics in the Western world since, well, Reagan, pretty much. The "left's" biggest successes were the likes of Clinton, Obama, Tony Blair, or Putin's best friend Schröder... in other words, stone-cold neoliberals who would never dare to challenge the economic orthodoxy established in the 80s and whose leftism amounted to not wanting to kill gay people or forcing 10-year-old rape victims to give birth.

I think people confuse what's happening culturally with what's happening politically.

Culturally things have become more progressive and for a time politics moved slightly in that direction with the legalising of gay marriage in some countries.

However in the last decade politics has been shifting to the right. I think the migrant crisis set off a wave of right-wing sentiment. When you factor in culture such as media being more inclusive now we're seeing people react to this as a loss of power and influence which leads them to vote more extremely.

 

[4bars]

I think people confuse what's happening culturally with what's happening politically.

Culturally things have become more progressive and for a time politics moved slightly in that direction with the legalising of gay marriage in some countries.

However in the last decade politics has been shifting to the right. I think the migrant crisis set off a wave of right-wing sentiment. When you factor in culture such as media being more inclusive now we're seeing people react to this as a loss of power and influence which leads them to vote more extremely.

And basically right wing populism to "save" the destroyed middle class in the 2008 crisis that still ongoing

 

[Penna]

So how far right is this prime minister / ruling party to be in control? Le Pin level?

They are the direct successors of the Italian Social Movement, the pro-Mussolini party which was established in 1946. They still have the same HQ building and use the same logo, the tricolour flame.

All we can hope is that the obnoxious and super-ambitious Salvini will fall out with Meloni sooner rather than later. He has had to agree to her being the leader of this alliance, as Fratelli d'Italia have more support at the moment than his party. He's also got a legal case hanging over him, relating to migrants who were left on a boat for weeks.

 

[nimic]

They are the direct successors of the Italian Social Movement, the pro-Mussolini party which was established in 1946. They still have the same HQ building and use the same logo, the tricolour flame.

Heh, no kidding. They're not even doing a cheeky "this is clearly the same symbolism, but we've made our own version that is different enough". It's just the exact same one.

 

[FireballXL5]

Hey Italy, how did far-right politics work out for you last time?

 

[4bars]

Heh, no kidding. They're not even doing a cheeky "this is clearly the same symbolism, but we've made our own version that is different enough". It's just the exact same one.

Scary shit

 

[Siorac]

I think people confuse what's happening culturally with what's happening politically.

Culturally things have become more progressive and for a time politics moved slightly in that direction with the legalising of gay marriage in some countries.

However in the last decade politics has been shifting to the right. I think the migrant crisis set off a wave of right-wing sentiment. When you factor in culture such as media being more inclusive now we're seeing people react to this as a loss of power and influence which leads them to vote more extremely.

This is what's completely bonkers about the whole "pandering to the left drives people to the right argument" - economically, there has been no pandering to the left in Europe and North America for about three decades - and now even in the cultural aspects there has been a pretty significant rightward turn.

It's increasing inequality, rapidly rising cost of living, or the absolutely insane state of the housing market that drives people towards far-right populism. Not gay marriage or marijuana. The migration crisis definitely played a part, yes, but the underlying problems are more significant - the migration issue just proved to be a convenient 'lightning rod' for the far-right.

 

[Penna]

My neighbour (bless her) asked me yesterday if we'd been to vote. She seemed surprised when I told her that no, only Italian citizens can vote. Mind you, she was also pretty confident that Meloni was unpopular and wouldn't get elected. I think some people are going to get a big shock.

 

[Bepi]

Meloni will do nothing relevant in any far-right sense: her majority relies upon Berlusconi’s small centrist party, weak yet critical in terms of seats. More than that, she seems to understand her biggest role, also as the first Italian woman to become PM, and will keep the baddies at bay in order not to burn herself, in that avoiding the fate of previous one-season-wonders. You can expect her government to last until next Summer, anyway, and that’s it: the parliamentary nature of the Italian democracy means that majorities live and die within the Parliament, reshuffles are the norm depending upon internal and external circumstances.

 

[Revan]

Yeah, I do not expect things to get scary here. Actually, I would put her much on the left side of Salvini (who IMO is more dangerous). In Italy governments usually last a year and are not able to do much, with leaders needing to appeal to the entire coalition (at times parts of the party fighting each other). She will need to appease both the far right and centrist elements on her party, both the moderate Forza Italia of Berlusconi and the racist/fascist Lega of Salvini. I think it is gonna be tricky for her starting from the Ukraine issue (she supports Ukraine while Berlusconi and Salvini love Putin).

This is not gonna become another Hungary, and with a bit luck should put PD in pole position to win the elections in a year or two.

 

[Penna]

This is not gonna become another Hungary, and with a bit luck should put PD in pole position to win the elections in a year or two.

They can do a lot of damage in a year or two. Anyway, it's all M5S's fault, this could all have been avoided.

 

[Revan]

They can do a lot of damage in a year or two. Anyway, it's all M5S's fault, this could all have been avoided.

I think Italy has such a system, that things go incredibly slowly. Even in very powerful governments (for example PD under Leta/Renzi) when one party alone has control over the government, not much gets done. Here it is gonna be a coalition of three parties, so I do not expect much to happen.

I do not see how it is M5S fault. They are an anti-establishment party, and the PD is as establishment as a party can be in Italy. So a PD-M5S coalition is very non-natural (as M5S saw by its support halving over the last 4 years).

I think that the hope is that with a coalition of very inexperienced people being in government, PD should comfortably win the next elections in 1-2 years. They need to solve their own issues first, starting by unifying the left/center.

 

[Bepi]

I think Italy has such a system, that things go incredibly slowly. Even in very powerful governments (for example PD under Leta/Renzi) when one party alone has control over the government, not much gets done. Here it is gonna be a coalition of three parties, so I do not expect much to happen.

I do not see how it is M5S fault. They are an anti-establishment party, and the PD is as establishment as a party can be in Italy. So a PD-M5S coalition is very non-natural (as M5S saw by its support halving over the last 4 years).

I think that the hope is that with a coalition of very inexperienced people being in government, PD should comfortably win the next elections in 1-2 years. They need to solve their own issues first, starting by unifying the left/center.

The Democratic Party establishment has long lost their historical working class & poor class roots, though, which makes almost inevitable an alliance with the populist M5S pretty soon, once the current leader, the centrist-at-heart Letta is gone. Therefore, I would expect PD become much more populist and Conte relevant again like he was before Draghi, this time as the head of the entire leftist opposition front. The truly centrist party is the one with renew Europe in their blue badge, they got an encouraging 7.5% and will happily welcome any deflecting centrist-at-heart MP from both sides in the following months, provided that the party itself does not blow up under the istrionic takes of their Stan & Ollie dynamic duo Calenda & Renzi.

 

[Penna]

@Revan, M5S could have supported Draghi, but acted in their own self-interests as they didn't want to upset their Roman membership.

(edit - it's not as if M5S didn't realise that Meloni and co were waiting to pounce).

The collapse of (Draghi's) government came about because of those fragilities at the heart of government. It started with the Five Star Movement (M5S), a left-leaning and populist party, boycotting a vote on a package aimed at helping Italians deal with the surging cost of living. The package included a controversial waste incinerator for Rome, which M5S vehemently rallied against.

The same anonymous CNBC source said M5S has a “great following in Rome, not so much in the rest of the country, but this law was a problem for this electorate.” By not voting for the wide-ranging package and blocking it, the party was in essence against the government that they were part of, the official said. Draghi offered his resignation after the stalemate on the vote.

A second Italian official, who preferred to remain anonymous due to the sensitive nature of the situation, said the move from M5S was “a significant decision.”

Draghi had “trusted this was a national unity government,” the official said. But with M5S abstaining from the vote on the government’s bill, “Draghi felt [it] was becoming harder and harder to enact his program,” the official added.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/02/how-italy-draghi-government-collapsed.html

 

[Revan]

@Revan, M5S could have supported Draghi, but acted in their own self-interests as they didn't want to upset their Roman membership.

(edit - it's not as if M5S didn't realise that Meloni and co were waiting to pounce).


https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/02/how-italy-draghi-government-collapsed.html

Ah, sorry, I meant about not making a coalition with PD (which was mentioned).

Yep, they should have supported Draghi (who actually was a good and popular PM). But I think this was just gonna postpone the inevitable, and Meloni's party, by virtue of being the only party in opposition, was going to win the next elections either way.

 

[11101]

Like which policies?

You seem to equate 'left' with 'liberal', which is questionable (as @nimic said). I'm thinking you are rather thinking of the neoliberal policies that have left many people behind in society - to which now the right somehow manages to convincingly respond by further rightist policy. In my view, the problem here is that the right (neoliberalism in particular) has been so dominant in political discourse that its basic tenets have become undebatable (socialism has even become a bad word; go back a century and it really wasn't), so that people's attention is deflected instead to identity politics and stopgaps as solutions.

And that's why I'm asking 'which policies' - cause I don't see what actual leftist policies are around that people are unhappy with. I'd love to see your examples.

Italian politics is utterly dominated by immigration, and over the last few years the extent of the welfare state. You won't find many bars or shops, at least in my area, where the owners aren't complaining about that. They have fuelled the rise in parties like Lega Nord and the adoption of right wing policies by the likes of M5S. There's never a single reason for anything but denying the lobbying and activism from left wing groups has anything to do with the rise in right wing populism will lead to yet more years of head scratching as to why its happening more and more in the world.

 

[Shane88]

She's fit.

If she's fit Italian beauty standards must have fallen off a fecking cliff.

 

[Cheimoon]

Italian politics is utterly dominated by immigration, and over the last few years the extent of the welfare state. You won't find many bars or shops, at least in my area, where the owners aren't complaining about that. They have fuelled the rise in parties like Lega Nord and the adoption of right wing policies by the likes of M5S. There's never a single reason for anything but denying the lobbying and activism from left wing groups has anything to do with the rise in right wing populism will lead to yet more years of head scratching as to why its happening more and more in the world.

What's specifically so leftist about it that it pushes people to the right though? It's not like Italy is a haven for immigrants and it's welfare state isn't the strongest either (there isn't even a minimum wage!).

Portugal: left
Spain: left
France: centre
Holland: centre
Germany: left

just because a far right won in Italy, there’s a definitive right wing turn?

The Dutch government is not centrist. You could call it centre-right I guess, but centre seems rather generous to me. Certainly economically there is nothing centrist about it.

 

[11101]

What's specifically so leftist about it that it pushes people to the right though? It's not like Italy is a haven for immigrants and it's welfare state isn't the strongest either (there isn't even a minimum wage!).

The Dutch government is not centrist. You could call it centre-right I guess, but centre seems rather generous to me. Certainly economically there is nothing centrist about it.

Italy has massive immigration problems as its the arrival point for many of those coming over from Africa, and the state welfare is virtually a basic wage so businesses struggle to hire low paid jobs like waiters and shop staff.

 

[Carolina Red]

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Well... I imagine this is going to go swimmingly for Italy, then.

 

[maniak]

Spain's govt will fall soon and the replacement coalition will include Francoists (Vox). Germany's is deeply unpopular. Holland's is under challenge from the right. Don't know enough about Portugal. Macron is stable.

In Portugal the socialist party is basically governing like a center-right party, being heavily criticized by the left and the right moving up on the polls, including our own version of meloni. With the incoming crisis, I can't see them survive the next election.

 

[Cheimoon]

Italy has massive immigration problems as its the arrival point for many of those coming over from Africa, and the state welfare is virtually a basic wage so businesses struggle to hire low paid jobs like waiters and shop staff.

I don't see any pandering to the left there. The left didn't locate Italy where it is. And it makes sense that welfare provide a living wage to people; are they supposed to starve?

If that's why people vote on the right, then there's a problem of communication (and geography, it seems), not of actual policy.

 

[11101]

I don't see any pandering to the left there. The left didn't locate Italy where it is. And it makes sense that welfare provide a living wage to people; are they supposed to starve?

If that's why people vote on the right, then there's a problem of communication (and geography, it seems), not of actual policy.

People don't like that migrants land in Italy, get processed there, and then other countries refuse to take them. It's a real problem and you can see it all across the borders and travel hubs.

Italy has no minimum wage but it has a guaranteed income level, which is a kind of similar to universal income. There is a minimum monthly amount everybody should get and if you earn less than that, the government makes up the difference, albeit with restrictions on how it can be spent. In practice it has meant that people can get virtually the same amount for doing nothing as they can from working. Obviously a lot of people choose doing nothing and low paid jobs around the minimum level are becoming impossible to fill. There are rumours it will be scrapped.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Portugal: left
Spain: left
France: centre
Holland: centre
Germany: left

just because a far right won in Italy, there’s a definitive right wing turn?

I think Denmark and Sweden are also far right.

 

[Raoul]

Has she met the Mango Mussolini yet ?

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[nimic]

Has she met the Mango Mussolini yet ?

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Whoops, she accidentally did a fascism.

 

[horsechoker]

Whoops, she accidentally did a fascism.

It's worrying that some people in the responses think she sounds reasonable.

 

[Bepi]

I mean, Italian poltics are a performative / sectarian act aimed at winning elections, then anyone ascending to the government will ultimately comply with the great number of brackets and stops inherited from being a EU member with huge national debt. If you take her words from yesterday and today, she already seems the perfect Draghi’s daughter. Sure, there will be times when her inner beliefs will resurface and threaten something regressive, yet again just have a look at their Senate majority of 112/200 seats, with Berlusconi’s centrist part having 20+ of them… and stay assured nothing ugly or regressive will ever become a law. In that, the difference with protestant / anglo-saxon politics is huge: our dogs will always bark louder to impress the plebs yet cannot bite at all. It will be interesting to see how Meloni gets along with Truss, who is reputed a nutter (someone actually biting instead of barking only) over these shores.