Ivan Toney Pt.2

aeh1991

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I totally expect to sign a striker who can fight with Hojlund for the position. Disagree with the point that other top teams only have one striker. Whether that striker we sign should be Toney? I am not sure.
 

Marwood

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You seem mostly concerned with cost. I imagine others are more concerned with quality, hence the disagreement. If £60m is too much to spend on anybody, I'd be curious to know what your magic number is. £20m? £10m?
It's not so much I'm concerned, I'm talking realistically what the club will or can do.

I can't see them knowingly create a situation of having a £60 million pound No.9 on the bench.

Like I said, nobody does this. We definitely shouldn't given how much repair work is needed through the squad.

By all means spend £60 million but do it on a wide player or AM who can slot in up front when needed. A player who can play with Hojlund but also replace him. As other clubs do.

Personally I think the answer is already in the club. It's not perfect for various reasons but Bruno as a false 9. Allows us to remodel that midfield and gets Bruno in and around the box i.e. where he does his best stuff.

On top of that is Greenwood. I'm not exactly easy about that, but in terms of just football, he'd be spot on for the role. Can play CF and RW.

Saves £40 million or whatever than can be spent elsewhere.
 
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Marwood

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I totally expect to sign a striker who can fight with Hojlund for the position. Disagree with the point that other top teams only have one striker. Whether that striker we sign should be Toney? I am not sure.
Most top teams don't have two outright No.9's. They definitely don't have two expensive No.9's. With one primarily sat on the bench.

They have more than option, somebody who can fill in, but that's a different thing.
 

aeh1991

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Most top teams don't have two outright No.9's. They definitely don't have two expensive No.9's. With one primarily sat on the bench.

They have more than option, somebody who can fill in, but that's a different thing.
That's why I would rather sign someone like Zirkzee or Sesko who have a relatively low release clause.
 

bosnian_red

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If that's what Toney goes for, that will definitely put him higher on anyone's list. That's the cost analysis the recruitment team will have to do. I personally would prefer not to go for a risky character like him, even if cheaper.
He's not a risky character, just had the betting thing but he did his time and he should be considered fine.

He also has 1 year left on his deal, which would almost certainly limit him to below 50m in his fee, likely more 40m. We're the only club he'd actually start at consistently and just makes sense from a squad building perspective, given the ages of him and Hojlund.
 

Isotope

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It's not so much I'm concerned, I'm talking realistically what the club will or can do.

I can't see them knowingly create a situation of having a £60 million pound No.9 on the bench.

Like I said, nobody does this. We definitely shouldn't given how much repair work is needed through the squad.

By all means spend £60 million but do it on a wide player or AM who can slot in up front when needed. A player who can play with Hojlund but also replace him. As other clubs do.

Personally I think the answer is already in the club. It's not perfect for various reasons but Bruno as a false 9. Allows us to remodel that midfield and gets Bruno in and around the box i.e. where he does his best stuff.

On top of that is Greenwood. I'm not exactly easy about that, but in terms of just football, he'd be spot on for the role. Can play CF and RW.

Saves £40 million or whatever than can be spent elsewhere.
We have a 80m CB sit on the bench, if only everyone is fit. The player's cost doesn't matter if he is not up to what we need.

Why would you want the team to suffer just because a mistake in buying cost?
 

Woziak

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Yeah I really like him.
Don’t know why we are not all over him, easier to get than most wages are £75k per week currently and he’s got potential resale value if it doesn’t work out!
 

Lash

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He's not a risky character, just had the betting thing but he did his time and he should be considered fine.

He also has 1 year left on his deal, which would almost certainly limit him to below 50m in his fee, likely more 40m. We're the only club he'd actually start at consistently and just makes sense from a squad building perspective, given the ages of him and Hojlund.
As mentioned in other posts, he's had gaffes and displays of arrogance at smaller clubs. The scrutiny he'll be under at United will be 100 fold, he could easily do something stupid again, I'd rather not chance it.

He'd start at Arsenal for sure and I think they can afford to take the risk more than us.
 

AneRu

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It's not so much I'm concerned, I'm talking realistically what the club will or can do.

I can't see them knowingly create a situation of having a £60 million pound No.9 on the bench.

Like I said, nobody does this. We definitely shouldn't given how much repair work is needed through the squad.

By all means spend £60 million but do it on a wide player or AM who can slot in up front when needed. A player who can play with Hojlund but also replace him. As other clubs do.

Personally I think the answer is already in the club. It's not perfect for various reasons but Bruno as a false 9. Allows us to remodel that midfield and gets Bruno in and around the box i.e. where he does his best stuff.

On top of that is Greenwood. I'm not exactly easy about that, but in terms of just football, he'd be spot on for the role. Can play CF and RW.

Saves £40 million or whatever than can be spent elsewhere.
Goals are the most important thing in football, that's why strikers get paid the big bucks. It's very possible that the previous guys we fired for incompetence, as it turns out, may have fecked up our big striker signing. Looking at how things turned out when we spent years waiting on Martial to come good it is financially prudent not to put all our eggs in the Hoijlund busket, we can't keep a place in the 11 warm for him when he is not impacting matches, and seasons, enough.

Bringing in n assured goal scorer is smart business. Fergie would never have signed Hoijlund but if he had he wouldn't have allowed the kid's progression to hold the team back. Now someone somehow allowed us to be in this situation and because the club okayed it they have to pay because next season we need goals to climb up from this pit we find ourselves in.

Hoijlund is young enough to one day recoup our costs either by proving himself a worthy Manchester United striker or if he gets sold. We bring in a striker at the top of his game, they fight it out and if he has got it he will work for his place and as long as we are in European competitions he will get enough games to develop.

The financials will take care of themselves because a successful team earns money by progressing deep in competitions and higher league finishes. We have also, theoretically, saved some money from Mainoo and Garnacho's emergence, Greenwood is doing well enough to attract a buyer and Sancho could get us a few millions/swap opportunities.
 

OverratedOpinion

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What are you talking about? Tel is a striker who gets minutes at LW and CF because he is young, and the club signed Kane in his position, he is compared to Benzema and Mbappe and wears the no 9 for france u21s

Barcelona have Lewandowski and Victor Roque
Madrid currently don't actually play with a no 9 since they are rebuilding their attack and are signing Mbappe and Endrick (however this is moot since Madrid is not in the country, neither is Barcelona, Inter Milan or whatever other European clubs you mentioned)

Whether you think the fee for Havertz was right or not, that was his fee, just like Hojlund's fee was mocked, as was Nunez fee and plenty of other players.
CF fees are high because there are not many around, you can't change the parameters just because it doesn't suit your agenda, its ok to admit when you got something wrong
You can't just decide someone's position despite them playing nearly exclusively in a different one because it suits your argument. Tel's heatmap:

https://www.sofascore.com/player/mathys-tel/1048888#tab:statistics

Havertz has also barely played as a striker which you ignored. He certainly isn't a 70 million pound striker.

The point is you said something and are digging your heels in when clearly most the top sides in the world don't have 2 60+ million strikers.

You know you're digging your heels in when you bring up Callum Wilson and 18 year olds who play out wide and have 5 Bundesliga goals.
 

Cassidy

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You can't just decide someone's position despite them playing nearly exclusively in a different one because it suits your argument. Tel's heatmap:

https://www.sofascore.com/player/mathys-tel/1048888#tab:statistics

Havertz has also barely played as a striker which you ignored. He certainly isn't a 70 million pound striker.

The point is you said something and are digging your heels in when clearly most the top sides in the world don't have 2 60+ million strikers.

You know you're digging your heels in when you bring up Callum Wilson.
Havertz has played plenty as a striker for both his current club and previous. Infact who is Arsenals no1 striker this season? Who has played the most as the no9?

As for Tel I'm not going to respond again on that, there is zero point you bringing up a heatmap, you either know the player or you don't

You keeping bringing up the Wilson comment but like I said when I mentioned it (Newcastle is not a top PL club)

Arsenal, City and Pool are the clubs I referred to

In fact this is the last response on the topic
 

OverratedOpinion

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Havertz has played plenty as a striker.

As for Tel I'm not going to respond again on that, there is zero point you bringing up a heatmap, you either know the player or you don't
Less than a third of his appearances.

So Tel is an established 60 million plus striker. Definitely not an 18 year old in his first season who is playing out wide and has 5 Bundesliga goals. No point in bringing up things like facts. Keep them heels firmly dug in buddy.
 

Cassidy

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Less than a third of his appearances.

So Tel is an established 60 million plus striker. Definitely not an 18 year old in his first season who is playing out wide and has 5 Bundesliga goals. No point in bringing up things like facts. Keep them heels firmly dug in buddy.
Where have I said that? Are you trying to move goal posts again?
Tel would cost around 60 or probably more if anyone wanted to get him out of Bayern


For reference this is what I responded to "who has two strikers of this kind of value" to which I responded "Every top club in the country."

That is Arsenal (Havertz, Jesus), Liverpool (Nunez, Jota) and City (Haaland, Alvarez)

Less than a third of Havertz appearances is about as much as Jesus and as of now Jesus is busy warming the bench
 
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Suv666

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I really like him
If he’s available on a decent fee we should try for him
Hojlund is definitely not ready right now and I don’t see him being for 2 seasons at least.
 

RuudTom83

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We the current state of the United squad you would ideally want to go for a CF who you can sometimes play together with Hojlund.

Having a 50-60 million pound CF on the bench sounds like a luxury United cannot afford to have this summer.

Far too many positions need filling.
 

OverratedOpinion

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Where have I said that? Are you trying to move goal posts again?
Tel would cost around 60 or probably more if anyone wanted to get him out of Bayern


For reference this is what I responded to "who has two strikers of this kind of value" to which I responded "Every top club in the country."

That is Arsenal (Havertz, Jesus), Liverpool (Nunez, Jota) and City (Haaland, Alvarez)

Less than a third of Havertz appearances is about as much as Jesus and as of now Jesus is busy warming the bench
I was pointing out that on a broader scale top clubs don't practice this. Which you've engaged with and been roundly incorrect.

Tel to this point is a promising 18 year old winger. No one is paying 60m for Thuram ect. Ect.

Jesus literally started their last game up front with Havertz in midfield. He is very injury prone which again makes his value debatable and explains why Havertz has played a handful of games there.

I'd also question Jota's value with his injury record tbf.
 

Cassidy

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I was pointing out that on a broader scale top clubs don't practice this. Which you've engaged with and been roundly incorrect.

Tel to this point is a promising 18 year old winger. No one is paying 60m for Thuram ect. Ect.

Jesus literally started their last game up front with Havertz in midfield. He is very injury prone which again makes his value debatable and explains why Havertz has played a handful of games there.

I'd also question Jota's value with his injury record tbf.
This conversations end here, too much delusion
 

Lyng

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As mentioned in other posts, he's had gaffes and displays of arrogance at smaller clubs. The scrutiny he'll be under at United will be 100 fold, he could easily do something stupid again, I'd rather not chance it.

He'd start at Arsenal for sure and I think they can afford to take the risk more than us.
I think it's part of the reason they are seemingly after Isak instead.
 

Marwood

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We have a 80m CB sit on the bench, if only everyone is fit. The player's cost doesn't matter if he is not up to what we need.

Why would you want the team to suffer just because a mistake in buying cost?
Goals are the most important thing in football, that's why strikers get paid the big bucks. It's very possible that the previous guys we fired for incompetence, as it turns out, may have fecked up our big striker signing. Looking at how things turned out when we spent years waiting on Martial to come good it is financially prudent not to put all our eggs in the Hoijlund busket, we can't keep a place in the 11 warm for him when he is not impacting matches, and seasons, enough.

Bringing in n assured goal scorer is smart business. Fergie would never have signed Hoijlund but if he had he wouldn't have allowed the kid's progression to hold the team back. Now someone somehow allowed us to be in this situation and because the club okayed it they have to pay because next season we need goals to climb up from this pit we find ourselves in.

Hoijlund is young enough to one day recoup our costs either by proving himself a worthy Manchester United striker or if he gets sold. We bring in a striker at the top of his game, they fight it out and if he has got it he will work for his place and as long as we are in European competitions he will get enough games to develop.

The financials will take care of themselves because a successful team earns money by progressing deep in competitions and higher league finishes. We have also, theoretically, saved some money from Mainoo and Garnacho's emergence, Greenwood is doing well enough to attract a buyer and Sancho could get us a few millions/swap opportunities.
If you want to replace Hojulnd that's fair enough. That's different from the conversation taking place, which is about a rotation option.

But if you guys want guaranteed goals, think Hojulnd isn't upto it, I'm not sure Toney is the answer there either.

28 and hasn't kicked a ball in Europe.
 

AbusementPark

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If you want to replace Hojulnd that's fair enough. That's different from the conversation taking place, which is about a rotation option.

But if you guys want guaranteed goals, think Hojulnd isn't upto it, I'm not sure Toney is the answer there either.

28 and hasn't kicked a ball in Europe.
It’ll be more for his link up play and holding the ball up to create space and chances for runners from midfield. He’s also not shy at scoring goals himself, decent return last season in a mid table team.
 

AneRu

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If you want to replace Hojulnd that's fair enough. That's different from the conversation taking place, which is about a rotation option.

But if you guys want guaranteed goals, think Hojulnd isn't upto it, I'm not sure Toney is the answer there either.

28 and hasn't kicked a ball in Europe.
Obviously we won't replace Hoijlund a year into his United career but we absolutely must bring in a sure thing to compete with, push him and to have adequate cover. We have to find a way to bring in a top class striker.
 

VP89

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It’ll be more for his link up play and holding the ball up to create space and chances for runners from midfield. He’s also not shy at scoring goals himself, decent return last season in a mid table team.
Your username would be a good name for a WWE pay per view event
 

NoPace

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Where have I said that? Are you trying to move goal posts again?
Tel would cost around 60 or probably more if anyone wanted to get him out of Bayern


For reference this is what I responded to "who has two strikers of this kind of value" to which I responded "Every top club in the country."

That is Arsenal (Havertz, Jesus), Liverpool (Nunez, Jota) and City (Haaland, Alvarez)

Less than a third of Havertz appearances is about as much as Jesus and as of now Jesus is busy warming the bench
Jota can play out wide and Havertz was primarily signed as a #8/10.

I do think the Jota example means that it would be normal enough to spend 60M on a forward who can play wide or as a #9, like say Rashford if he was playing well and looking like a serious option as a #9 like he used to, and at a different club. Or just turn down a 60M offer for Rashford.

I guess some real world examples would be:
Ferran Torres, Joao Pedro

Not a great list!
 

Cassidy

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Jota can play out wide and Havertz was primarily signed as a #8/10.

I do think the Jota example means that it would be normal enough to spend 60M on a forward who can play wide or as a #9, like say Rashford if he was playing well and looking like a serious option as a #9 like he used to, and at a different club. Or just turn down a 60M offer for Rashford.

I guess some real world examples would be:
Ferran Torres, Joao Pedro

Not a great list!
Havertz played as the starting CF last night (and has done so 15 times this season) and is at least number 2 striker at Arsenal, and was the number 1 number 9 at Chelsea
No point doing mental gymnastics

Jota is the number 2 9 at Liverpool, yes he plays in other positions too but that a moot point.

I hope you realise United have said more than once that the original plan for Hojlund was to have him also play out wide
 

didz

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Havertz played as the starting CF last night (and has done so 15 times this season) and is at least number 2 striker at Arsenal, and was the number 1 number 9 at Chelsea
No point doing mental gymnastics

Jota is the number 2 9 at Liverpool, yes he plays in other positions too but that a moot point.

I hope you realise United have said more than once that the original plan for Hojlund was to have him also play out wide
Jota is more like number 3 behind Darwin and Gakpo.
 

Cassidy

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Jota is more like number 3 behind Darwin and Gakpo.
He starts as the 9 before Gakpo when both fit which is why he is the 2. Either way you can swap Jota for Gakpo point remains
 

didz

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He starts as the 9 before Gakpo when both fit which is why he is the 2. Either way you can swap Jota for Gakpo point remains
I was reinforcing your point, not disagreeing with it. Liverpool have 3 good options to play centre forward and all of the cost £50m or more. I think they were even all signed in consecutive seasons.
 

Cassidy

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I was reinforcing your point, not disagreeing with it. Liverpool have 3 good options to play centre forward and all of the cost £50m or more. I think they were even all signed in consecutive seasons.
Ah fair enough, good point
 

the_cliff

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Rather this guy than Sesko. In his prime, guaranteed at least 15 goals in the league, has done it before and can allow Hojlund to grow.

Instead of relying on 2 young talents in Hojlund and Sesko that are inexperienced in the league. This is the type of signing Fergie would make.
 

didz

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Rather this guy than Sesko. In his prime, guaranteed at least 15 goals in the league, has done it before and can allow Hojlund to grow.

Instead of relying on 2 young talents in Hojlund and Sesko that are inexperienced in the league. This is the type of signing Fergie would make.
In fairness he's only done it once in a top division and he had plenty of help from the penalty spot, which isn't an area of weakness for us. 'Guaranteed' might be a bit strong in that regard.

Agree with your second point though.
 

the_cliff

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In fairness he's only done it once in a top division and he had plenty of help from the penalty spot, which isn't an area of weakness for us. 'Guaranteed' might be a bit strong in that regard.

Agree with your second point though.
Sorry, I meant on average. I don't really count this season as he's missed the majority of it but the penalties are a good point.
 

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I think when it comes to Toney we need to seriously consider that he plays with Wissa who is also having a strong season. Even before today where he has put Brentford 2 up with 2 goals with Toney absent. He's lively and causes problems and they play as a duo. Toney is better. But Wissa is good and signing Toney doesn't transplant that striking partnership which caused among others, ourselves, lots of problems. Its possible Toney could strike up a good parternship with one of our wingers or Bruno. But its unknown while his current partnership with Wissa is solid and effective.

We dont play 2 strikers. If we signed Toney maybe we would try it. How well it would work compared to Brentford who knows. I think he'd be good as a lone forward and an improvement in general play over Hojlund, but not as good as he is with Wissa playing next to him
 
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I think when it comes to Toney we need to seriously consider that he plays with Wissa who is also having a strong season. Even before today where he has put Brentford 2 up with 2 goals with Toney absent. He's lively and causes problems and they play as a duo. Toney is better. But Wissa is good and signing Toney doesn't transplant that striking partnership which caused among others, ourselves, lots of problems. Its possible Toney could strike up a good parternship with one of our wingers or Bruno. But its unknown while his current partnership with Wissa is solid and effective.

We dont play 2 strikers. If we signed Toney maybe we would try it. How well it would work compared to Brentford who knows. I think he'd be good as a lone forward and an improvement in general play over Hojlund, but not as good as he is with Wissa playing next to him
Brentford have played a lone striker system to with Toney at the helm plenty of times since they signed him, and he has excelled. Under Frank they have never been wedded to any formation and all their forwards have thrived regardless. It's not "unknown" if he can operate in a single striker system in any shape or form. One should not conflate his excellent understanding with Wissa with operating not being able to operate elitely as a lone forward.
 

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Brentford have played a lone striker system to with Toney at the helm plenty of times since they signed him, and he has excelled. Under Frank they have never been wedded to any formation and all their forwards have thrived regardless. It's not "unknown" if he can operate in a single striker system in any shape or form. One should not conflate his excellent understanding with Wissa with operating not being able to operate elitely as a lone forward.
You're right in the past he played on his own in previous seasons but theres a reason why they arent doing it now. They are doing what they think is best now
 

FujiVice

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Agent Fergie needs to get on to his son and tell his mate Ivan Toney to come on board. Peterborough should get a cut out of the fee as well.
 

didz

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You're right in the past he played on his own in previous seasons but theres a reason why they arent doing it now. They are doing what they think is best now
What they think is best now is going with the 352 to stop the bleeding, having recently conceded 19 goals in a span of 9 winless games.
 

Ekeke

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What they think is best now is going with the 352 to stop the bleeding, having recently conceded 19 goals in a span of 9 winless games.
They've done it all season.

They've played 18 league games with 2 up front and when they've played 3 up front Wissa has played on the left