Apologies or you won’t play. No I won’t apologise. Is essentially refusing to play. Just suck up your pride.
Jadon Sancho Borussia Dortmund loan watch (Has ended ten Hag)
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If the ideas are the same in principle then they are not modern. And no Football doesn't change from a season to a season, we are yet to have any of the managers you mentioned actually invent something or even tweak something in a way that is new. Both are using very old principles and applying them in a fairly conservatist way. Klopp and Guardiola are very good at teaching those old principles but neither is innovator.
You sure about that? Have you missed all these record high injuries we’re seeing at the minute? What modern day football is telling us is in fact the opposite. All these injuries are telling you their bodies aren’t coping.Yeah, that was exactly what I wanted to imply, you got it.
Come on, you know that this is nonsense. Of course sport changes. Klopp's gegenpressing style is so demanding that maintaining it over an entire season would have been impossible in the 90s or even early 00s as the players weren't fit enough back then. And then there's also the economic side. Football has grown so much that clubs can afford much better academies, bigger coaching teams, more in-depth scouting and performance analytics and so forth. You could go on and on and on. The ideas may remain the same in principle but there are so many enablers and facilitators that such a big sport changes almost from season to season. For what it's worth, what Guardiola and Klopp are doing would not have been possible 10 or maybe even just 5 years prior to their breakthrough seasons.
Read the posts of your fellow top reds, I've been making these points when the notion we could ever win a league title was still completely ridiculous
Also are you aware that what Klopp and Pep have done and how their teams play isn’t how every team plays? You’re aware of this right. Real Madrid won 5/6 CL trophies not playing gegenpress or heavy possession football. Atletico won two league titles and got to two Cl finals playing a totally different system.
Inter are currently winning Serie a by a landslide and they’re not even in the top 4 for possession.
Why oh why people continue to pretend that what Pep and Klopp have done is widespread through football is beyond me. It’s such a completely disingenuous argument.
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He has failed in Manchester twice
It's also not modern, Zeman was making players run like donkeys more than 30 years ago. Also while I really like Klopp, he hasn't won enough to be an example of some modern feats that couldn't or haven't been replicated.
Exactly. As if Cruyff and Bielsa didn’t exist…
Didn’t Felix Magath also do the same. Didnt he manage in the German league also? You’d think that poster would be aware of that.
Yeah Magath is an other example. Regarding Guardiola his admitted models are Cruyff, Lillo and Bielsa and it's very easy to spot their core principles. Also none of these managers actually invented their core principles those are way older than that. The only thing that I believe is somewhat modern is Diniz positionless system but even then I say that out of ignorance, I could be totally wrong.
It was wrong by ETH to demand a public apology from a player who only defended himself saying that he is not lazy in training. ETH is not a good manager, and this is just another one of his (many) failures. Players have pride, actually players SHOULD have pride in themselves, psychology is important in football. ETH proved to be incapable in handling many situations, and the Sancho example is just one of the many reasons he failed, he proved he is not very good at management. Even if he wanted Sancho to be sold, this was not the proper way to handle the whole thing.
well see, in the PL he can't. Defenders are too good 1vs1 for him
I think you're being intellectually disgonest now
Innovation isn't always radical, it can also be incremental. So yes, Klopp and Guardiola basically adapted already existing principles and it is impressive how many predecessors you can name for them but Magath is actually the perfect example why there is still innovation going on. He was indeed extremely obsessed with fitness and his players regularly had to puke during training or were so exhausted they could barely move. Probably no top team is training that hard these days but they are still fitter than his teams because of sports science. Clever people have found out that the human body needs pauses and they have found ways to conclude when it is time for a rest. I read somewhere that players in the 70s ran about 7 kilometres per game or so while Bender and Kehl in Klopp's Dortmund averaged almost 13, in some games even achieved 14. You can't possibly argue that this doesn't create the necessity to adapt decades old ideas. And you can go further and further with that. Performance diagnostics, nutrition, video analyses, even digital visualization tools that help coaches transport their own visions into the heads of the players. All this is evolving rapidly and top managers in football need to adapt to all of that in order to stay ahead of the competition. This becomes harder and harder the older you get, let alone with 70. Why does that matter? We were speaking about top managers and current top managers definitely apply those principles.
And Inter under Inzaghi also plays highly organized and modern football. Not necessarily with lots of possession but definitely very organized when it comes to positional play. In fact they are probably the most fluid side in the world right now apart from the relationist teams like Diniz'. Their positioning is so fluid that at times the three CBs are occupying the CM positions while the CMs are dropping into theirs.
Who precisely? I mean, I've seen Sancho toy with Davies and I don't know which EPL fullback should be harder to get past than him. And Sancho's biggest strength isn't even his 1 on 1.
Would you do that if you think you're in the right?
And no it isn't the same, Ten Hag banned him until he apologised he didn't refuse to play.
As I understand it, in South America his system is considered a throwback to the pre-Europeanised Brazilian joga bonito ideal, so there really is nothing new under the sun
You see the bolded part. Do you realize that this isI think you're being intellectually disgonest now
Why does that matter? We were speaking about top managers and current top managers definitely apply those principles.
And Inter under Inzaghi also plays highly organized and modern football. Not necessarily with lots of possession but definitely very organized when it comes to positional play. In fact they are probably the most fluid side in the world right now apart from the relationist teams like Diniz'. Their positioning is so fluid that at times the three CBs are occupying the CM positions while the CMs are dropping into theirs.
That claim means that those innovations are radical but you know want to suggest that they incremental which means that Football doesn't change from one season to an other. But more importantly how can something be outdated while also not being and also not radical but maybe incremental?
You are trying to speak from both sides of your mouth which is why you contradict yourself on key points and when you tried to described modern Football you exclusively mentioned money which is also not a modern invention.
I disagree .. Not apologizing when you don't think you are wrong is being frozen out by a manager who apparently has no people skills.
That's interesting, do you have a timeline? That would be pre 442 but is it way older or closer to the 50s?
He bases a lot of his game on his dribbling and he couldn't beat a chair in the PL
ETH may be wrong on lots of things but this isn't one of them, part of training properly is turning up on time and Sancho has a long history of not doing that
Closer to the mid 80s I would think, around about the time where Brazil stopped fielding a bunch of 'number 10s' and started playing more defensive players in midfield to let one or two stars shine. Definitely not pre 442, the Brazilian 424 is probably the archetype.
You can think Erik was right and Sancho was in the wrong while also acknowledging that to say Sancho downed tools is erroneous.
He simply never showed enough for us on the football pitch, even if you are able to ignore his clear issues off of it. As someone smarter than I pointed out a long time ago, you need to think of him more of a Juan Mata than a traditional winger. Except without the range of passing.
He is neat, tidy, technically proficient and entirely unsuited to the premier league, at least in how most teams play. He's not fast, he's not strong, he doesn't defend well enough for a winger and he doesn't get involved enough.
If you give him a whole load of minutes he'll absolutely make some lovely give and go's, have some great touches and he's actually not a bad finisher. But he contributed less to our overall attack than Antony. That was not a high bar he had to overcome.
He is neat, tidy, technically proficient and entirely unsuited to the premier league, at least in how most teams play. He's not fast, he's not strong, he doesn't defend well enough for a winger and he doesn't get involved enough.
If you give him a whole load of minutes he'll absolutely make some lovely give and go's, have some great touches and he's actually not a bad finisher. But he contributed less to our overall attack than Antony. That was not a high bar he had to overcome.
I see, I have the europeanization earlier than that but now that you mention it brazilians do consider it more linked to a more robust and conservative midfield.
I didn't suggest he did down tools,, as I understand it, he was made to train with the kids, if he trained properly then obviously he didn't down tools, but I think it's fair to say he threw his toys out of the pram though
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Fair enough but the person you replied to was making the point that he didn't.
I think it's fair the whole situation escalated beyond what it could or should have. Fined and banned for a month is what should have happened.
If you're interested, this exchange led me down a rabbit hole and we can apparently pin the time down to the 1989 Copa America for what I'm talking about, with a guy called Sebastiao Lazaroni being largely responsible as far as the NT is concerned.
Thanks, I'm definitely interested.
Glad to see so many people arent falling for this superficial 'banter' type rubbish about Sancho. He was rubbish for United long before ten hag, then people forget that he basically got given months off, earning millions while sitting on his arse - and STILL returned and couldnt repay that by showing up on time for training or training properly. Are people absolutely mental in defending this cretin? Another symbol of all the ways we got it wrong post ferguson. Getting carried to the cl semi final while playing rubbish doesnt change that. Djimi Traore won a champions league, and it didnt mean he was up for the ballon d'or. Get rid of this pisspot and dont look back.
Lazaroni, now there's blast from the past
I just feel that ETH needed to play it a little differently so as to protect United's investment.
He was barely making an effort even before that
could have sorted it with ETH but both are too mediocre for United for me
I just vomited a little in my mouth.
Eth and Sancho. Stoppable force meets a movable object. Get rid both
Well done !!! It's always embarrassing to vomit in someone else's mouth .
He has a shit attitude on and off the pitch. Regardless of how he plays in Dortmund or his relationship with ETH, the sooner he fecks off the better. No manager will ever be able to rely on him.
Well yeah they both could have did more to sort it out instead of what did happen.
Our resident Bulli posters want to defend their league so much that they’re now trying to tell us he’s been having a great loan at Dortmund.
Mind you, I didn’t think he was shit for us, but underwhelming would be more appropriate. He’s been just as underwhelming with Dortmund as he’s been for us. And just as inefficient
Mind you, I didn’t think he was shit for us, but underwhelming would be more appropriate. He’s been just as underwhelming with Dortmund as he’s been for us. And just as inefficient
Quotes please.
And please no quotes from Zehner, that guy is delusional and a pain in the ass for all of us, no matter where we come from.
I usually rate your posts very highly since I think you're very knowledgeable but in this case, I believe you're splitting hairs and avoiding the actual point
It doesn't really matter if it changes over a single season or not as it definitely changes rapidly enough for coaches to become outdated. That the core principles you refer to have been adapted drastically to the modern game is without question for the fact alone that the fitness levels of players are much higher now than when those core principles were introduced in the 70s or arguably even earlier. When modern players are capable of covering distances of 12+ kms per 90 while their smoking, boozing and unhealthy eating counterparts of the 70s were running 7+, it has huge implications on how much you can condense the space, how effectively you can exploit space inbehind and so forth. But professionalism and fitness are only one aspect, you already mentioned that I brought up money (which itself is a HUGE facilitator) but I also mentioned digitization, sports science, nutrition, big data, and so forth.Maybe it's good to clarify what I mean with "outdated" as well. For me, this primarily comes down to the level of organization and cohesiveness. In Guardiola or Klopp teams, you see how the vision of the coaching team is drilled into the players. Many call it robotic and that's something Ferguson's teams never were. Ferguson had a stronger emphasis on the individual compared to the collective approach of the new generation. To an extent, it is dogmatism vs. pragmatism. However, there are still coaches around that are successful with systems that are more reminiscent of Ferguson, above all Ancelotti. I could very well imagine that Ferguson would win titles in a similar fashion. But I wouldn't expect him to win a league title against a Klopp or especially Guardiola coached team or continue the dominance over the EPL he displayed over decades.
Not even I was speaking of a great season, so no worries