That's your opinion. Mine is different.
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Agree. They play different roles in very different attacking sides. Garner would is far better in his role/position than Fred is in Fred's role/position, which is the real point of the argument. It's not quite comparing an attacker to a defender, but Garner's all-round game is better than Fred's, including his control of the ball in tight spaces, passing short and long, shooting, free kicks and tackling. Fred is a trier and runs his balls off but he's sloppy as feck with the ball and gives it away almost as cheaply as Bruno does. Fred is lightweight in challenges, whoever said Fred is great at winning the ball back has been watching a different Fred. This Fred is brushed off like a U12 player trying to mark an adult. Fred should be nowhere near a starting XI of any team that is hoping to challenge for anything, but as a squad option (at 56M or whatever the fee was) that is one expensive sub.
I’ve liked Garner since his impressive performances at youth team level. He was the one I tipped for the top, but people need to reign in their expectations. I fully expect him to be utilised next season, but as a squad player. I’d be amazingly surprised if he is a starter for us next season. He’s only 20 and the step up from the Championship is huge. Hope he makes it, but people saying he’s already better than a full Brazilian international are doing the same thing they always do with young players; overhype. They’ll also be the first ones to tear him down when he has an inevitable sticky patch.
Unfortunately, he's nothing special. A good player, but won't make any difference at United because he is a box to box as all our other midfielders.
He is far better passer than McFred, and he has decent defensive stats and very good performance in championship too. I think we can use him as backup next season.
I know McFred gives us more intensity in midfield which is important when playing in PL, and which is also the only reason why we use them. But we are going to play new system which focus on possession, and I think passing is one important factor we couldn't ignore.
I know McFred gives us more intensity in midfield which is important when playing in PL, and which is also the only reason why we use them. But we are going to play new system which focus on possession, and I think passing is one important factor we couldn't ignore.
Is quick and snappy in his mind and feet now? I remember watching him earlier and getting ponderous views, you know, one of those players who needs time and space to do his thing but would struggle in compressed spaces. Granted he was even younger then.
On the other hand, Mjebri always came across as having special talent. That ability to always have time on the ball and glide through central areas.
On the other hand, Mjebri always came across as having special talent. That ability to always have time on the ball and glide through central areas.
There is no way we’re getting De Jong, so you can bank on Garner staying and competing for minutes.
Good to see him having very good season. I think he leads "Assists from Corners" stat. Watched few highlights and his set pieces were so good. Hopefully he won't lose his ability like others.
Also few should have a check on their expectations. Build the youth player who plays at lower league as better than ManUtd first team player, when the player doesn't meet their sky high expectations then tear down the player with all silly names.
Still remember how the player was already written off when he played just few mins for first team as a 18 year old.
Also few should have a check on their expectations. Build the youth player who plays at lower league as better than ManUtd first team player, when the player doesn't meet their sky high expectations then tear down the player with all silly names.
Still remember how the player was already written off when he played just few mins for first team as a 18 year old.
Why are you all comparing Fred and Garner when the real person that Garner should be replacing is Scott. Scott is absolutely useless.
Your opinion can be really wrong though. Fred is a very good player liked by every coach he plays for, and has been a key player for a top 4 fighting team for a few years now.
Garner has had a very good season for a championship pushing for promotion but might just end in a playoff spot. It's not like he's the player of the season. There's a big gap between the championship and the top of the premier league.
Given what we need in other areas of the team I think we have to make him take the plunge - sink or swim kind of situation - by initially making him the starter in the Europa group stages like what Ole did with Greenwood and giving him more prominence in the league if he impresses. Fred will start as the 8 alongside the new DM signing.
It doesn't make sense for us to ignore other critical areas of the team to buy a second midfielder when we have seen what he can do in the Championship and against decent PL opposition in the FA Cup.
Can we decouple mcfred please. Fred has actually been good this season in the main, Scott hasn't been
Your opinion is utter nonsense though, in fairness.
Fred fanboys polluting the Garner thread, nothing new here.
Both Fred and McTominay are useless.
"I can't say that a kid playing in the Championship is better than the first choice midfielder for both Man Utd and Brazil without people disagreeing with me....how dare they"
There, fixed it for you.
Here: I think Garner is a good player in his position. I think Fred is a bad player in his position. There, fixed it for you.
Not sure that comparison makes much sense until they played at a similar level. And even then, they're pretty different types of midfielders
Fred has fanboys now?
people have a right to disagree with you.But they should do that over on the Fred thread, no? Or should I go talk about Garner on the Fred thread?Fred has fanboys now?
It makes sense in that I think Fred should be scrapped and sold for parts, while I think Garner has a future in our midfield. It's not hard to understand. Garner has not hit his ceiling yet, while Fred definitely has, and Fred's level is not good enough.
Hey, I hope Garner does go on to be better. That'd be great. Personally I think he does have a fair chance of being better than McTominay already.
But it's ridiculous to have a whinge about 'fanboys polluting a thread' because people disagree with you making quite an outlandish statement of him definitely already being better than Fred. You got people disagreeing with you because of how much of a certainty you made it out to be, so of course you're going to get a response.
But why Fred instead of our great Scottish hide n Seek champion?
Fred has been among our best this season (not saying much but still).
If Forest get promoted I think there's a chance he will stay there for another season even if I don't think he should.
Fred plays in a team surrounded by better players.
Garner plays in a team that, until not so long ago, was facing a relegation challenge.
The view that Garner needs to be better than Fred, whilst simultaneously playing with worse players, is just flawed. Who is to say that Fred would not be much worse playing for Nottingham Forest? And who is to say that Garner wouldn't be a revelation playing alongside players more likely to make use of his key attributes?
Garner plays in a team that, until not so long ago, was facing a relegation challenge.
The view that Garner needs to be better than Fred, whilst simultaneously playing with worse players, is just flawed. Who is to say that Fred would not be much worse playing for Nottingham Forest? And who is to say that Garner wouldn't be a revelation playing alongside players more likely to make use of his key attributes?
Sell Garner for 20m to a PL club with a buy back clause when his stock is high and use it for squad building now.
I want him to get exposure to PL, but away from all limelights thrown at you when you are a Utd player
Buy back when he shows he can handle PL and we steadied the ship a bit.
I want him to get exposure to PL, but away from all limelights thrown at you when you are a Utd player
Buy back when he shows he can handle PL and we steadied the ship a bit.
Or you could just loan him to a PL team and see how he does? There’s 0 point selling him. His stock isn’t going to be high enough to fetch 20m anyway, you get that valuation for a season in the PL, not the championship.
Forest fan that I spoke to said he had poor start this season and until November or December was when he started to play solid and more consistent. His ability and weakness suits him more as a no 8 than no 6.
Scholes was our regular midfield when he was 21 years old and we won the league with him. Garner might not be Scholes, but we are not challenging the league next season so if he’s good enough, he’s old enough to get lot of games time with us. Forest had very poor start and the fact they only started pick their good form when Garner started to perform, and they are now in 3rd spot is pretty impressive for a 20/21 years old midfielder.
If we aren’t challenging the league, then it’s perfect time to play Garner and coach him to play in the role where we are going to use him for this ETH project to challenge the league in the future.
Scholes was our regular midfield when he was 21 years old and we won the league with him. Garner might not be Scholes, but we are not challenging the league next season so if he’s good enough, he’s old enough to get lot of games time with us. Forest had very poor start and the fact they only started pick their good form when Garner started to perform, and they are now in 3rd spot is pretty impressive for a 20/21 years old midfielder.
If we aren’t challenging the league, then it’s perfect time to play Garner and coach him to play in the role where we are going to use him for this ETH project to challenge the league in the future.
This is one of those knock-on conversations that pick up side arguments like a snowball rolling down hill picks up mass until it's a behemoth crushing all in its path.
The Garner v. Fred thing happened, on the Garner thread, because people kept saying: 1.) they wanted Garner in the first team, and 2.) they wanted Fred out of the first team. So someone comes along and says, "But Fred starts for Brazil, how could a kid in the Championship be better than a full Brazil internationals?!" So the argument is getting far afield of what it started out being.
What it started out being is: our midfield sucks and needs a total overhaul. Neither Fred nor McTominay are guaranteed anything under ETH, and while both may take to ETH's system like ducks to water, they also might sink beneath the waves. The style of football and the tactics/ethos of ETH require players to look after the ball better, be better at short and quick passing, and to be adaptable to "filling in" at other positions around them. These are all things that Garner does well, and both Fred and McTominay struggle with. In addition, Garner is good at set piece delivery.
Add all that up and it becomes a mess.
We have persisted with Fred for years now, and he was never good enough. That doesn't mean he's never been good, just not good enough. This season most of our players were not good enough, and Fred was better than his usual self. Ask any opposition fan if they would take Fred in their team, they will laugh at you. None of my friends who support Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool rate Fred. None. If Fred suits your vision of how a footballer needs to perform, I guess that's a matter of personal preference. Fred is also 29. He has had his chances. 101 appearances, 6 goals, 5 assists, for a box to box player is hilarious. He is no longer a player we should be building anything around, and instead we should be entertaining offers. Garner is 21.
A small pedantic point but it was age 23 season (97/98) when I personally would classify him as a regular first choice starter alongside Butt or Johnsen in midfield after Keane's injury, his age 21 year (95/96) he spent playing up front a lot and then his age 22 year (96/97) I would say he was in rotation with Butt (and even Beckham when Poborsky was played as the right wing alongside Keane) a lot more than regularly starting.
Fit my memory. He played more box to box and often more advanced position in early days. Impressive for the run to the box to score on the edge or inside the box from those runs. It’s later he gradually settled at the core of midfield. All take time for youngsters and depend on how team evolves.
All this is just too careful.
We want optimal confluence of circumstances for Garner to get minutes for us.
"Give him some minutes in 1st team"
"Can't, it's not optimal we're not winning."
"What then?"
"loan him to Championship. That's physical!"
Loans to Championship and is a major player in their push for 2nd place.
"Think we can give him some rotation minutes now. Afterall, it's not as if we're stacked in midfield. All he has to do is be as good as what we already have. Not a high bar, is it?"
"Yeah, but, it's not optimal. We're not winning. Too toxic right now."
"Right. So?
"Another loan, but this time to a lower PL side! Good experience!"
Loans to lower PL side. Plays well, but team relegated because they're rubbish.
"Think he had a good loan. Surely he can get some minutes now."
"Yeah, but, it's not optimal. His loan club got relegated. He'll be psychologically not ready. We're not Champions yet, so, we need to be patient with him or else we could damage him."
"He's 27 now, though!"
And on and on it'll go.
I swear, I've never seen such a forum as the Caf. Obsessed with negative outcomes that haven't, or never might happen because they're too concerned about whether the environment is absolutely perfect for a graduate to get minutes.
Oh, and Gavi, Pedri, Fati say hi. Or, I dunno, maybe they should have been sent out on loan to Racing Santander.........
We want optimal confluence of circumstances for Garner to get minutes for us.
"Give him some minutes in 1st team"
"Can't, it's not optimal we're not winning."
"What then?"
"loan him to Championship. That's physical!"
Loans to Championship and is a major player in their push for 2nd place.
"Think we can give him some rotation minutes now. Afterall, it's not as if we're stacked in midfield. All he has to do is be as good as what we already have. Not a high bar, is it?"
"Yeah, but, it's not optimal. We're not winning. Too toxic right now."
"Right. So?
"Another loan, but this time to a lower PL side! Good experience!"
Loans to lower PL side. Plays well, but team relegated because they're rubbish.
"Think he had a good loan. Surely he can get some minutes now."
"Yeah, but, it's not optimal. His loan club got relegated. He'll be psychologically not ready. We're not Champions yet, so, we need to be patient with him or else we could damage him."
"He's 27 now, though!"
And on and on it'll go.
I swear, I've never seen such a forum as the Caf. Obsessed with negative outcomes that haven't, or never might happen because they're too concerned about whether the environment is absolutely perfect for a graduate to get minutes.
Oh, and Gavi, Pedri, Fati say hi. Or, I dunno, maybe they should have been sent out on loan to Racing Santander.........
Well apparently Fred is more proven at PL level, so as of now I don't see much of a comparison.
But comparing them side by side, Garner definitely pass the ball better, while Fred is better in pressing and adding lot more intensity in midfield, which is important in PL.
But the thing is, Fred is so bad at passing that I think may become detrimental to our possession football under ETH. We will have to wait and see.
But comparing them side by side, Garner definitely pass the ball better, while Fred is better in pressing and adding lot more intensity in midfield, which is important in PL.
But the thing is, Fred is so bad at passing that I think may become detrimental to our possession football under ETH. We will have to wait and see.
Scholes & Co. were pushing for places in a star-studded United team, not a team full of dross. It's unfair to compare anyone to Scholes because he was such a breathtaking player (my favorite player), but even players like Butt would easily get into this United side and be the best player. Fletcher would be the best player in this team. Garner is not pushing to unseat Robson or Keane, after all. This is a rebuilding time and Garner should be brought back and given a chance, in my opinion.
Mine too, I was just seeing to the accuracy of what the timeline was. If anything it reinforces the point that we can bring Garner back at this point and be patient.
I hope everyone remember Zaha's story. Crashing talent in Championship , promoting to PL with Crystal Palace and received offer from Man Utd. Then in a turbulent team he could not even make the bench for almost two years and sold back to CP .
Next season the team will see huge change and it's quite hard for Garner to get regular minutes and further his development as there are huge gap between PL and Championship. If Forrest is promoted, the best scenario would be Garner staying there for another season, Just like Dean Henderson did with Sheffield. Then even he could not crack back into Man Utd squad, he would receive PL offers as a young uprising talent, instead of a bench option dumped into the market trying to get minutes.
Next season the team will see huge change and it's quite hard for Garner to get regular minutes and further his development as there are huge gap between PL and Championship. If Forrest is promoted, the best scenario would be Garner staying there for another season, Just like Dean Henderson did with Sheffield. Then even he could not crack back into Man Utd squad, he would receive PL offers as a young uprising talent, instead of a bench option dumped into the market trying to get minutes.
That is not how I remember it happening. Zaha was a talent and we could have used him. Fergie signed him then left. Whatever Moyes' problem with the player was, no one knows, but Moyes was a disaster. For years we could have used a player like him, but you're saying like he washed out: he didn't.
But then if we use Mason Mount and Reece James story where both also crashing talent in championship at derby and wigan, next following season played regularly under Lampard at Chelsea to finished 4th and then next following season won UCL.
By all means add him to the squad and if he steps up fantastic. But his presence should have no bearing on the need to finally invest in multiple top quality CMs for the first time in what feels like atleast a decade
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