This. He needs another season. The question is as desperate as we are in terms of the need for quality, can we afford to wait for his development? Ole probably could but the fans are craving for silverware now.
James Garner
- Thread starter RussellWilson
- Start date
he still looks weak as piss to me
I doubt Ole would play him much if he was here, he can barely trust Pogba in a two
another year in the Championship would be great for him
I doubt Ole would play him much if he was here, he can barely trust Pogba in a two
another year in the Championship would be great for him
Different type of players. I would rather compare him to Rodri, Locatelli, Carrick or Xabi.
He's no weaker than Jorginho.
That's perhaps not the highest standard, but it's enough to show a precedent for playing in the PL.
That's perhaps not the highest standard, but it's enough to show a precedent for playing in the PL.
like this guy a lot. Hope he makes it. Has plenty going for him. Intrigued to see how and where he could fit in. Seems like he’d one of a holding two though consensus I feel seems to be that we need one midfielder who can do what two do to allow two more creative types as well. Interesting to see how Garner develops and what role he can carve out for himself.
He is quite creative with his passing, or at least he was when coming through the academy. I've only watched 1 or 2 full games of him at Forest and he seems to be playing simpler and just keeping things ticking over and retaining possession.
I recommended this video to all of my friends about him a couple of years ago, still relevant now so you can see what type of player he was when he was working his way through the academy.
Unless Garner is more or less guaranteed to get a lot of gametime, he should stay where he can play regularly. At present we have Pogba, Fred, McT, Matic, DvB and Bruno competing for 3 places centrally - chances are we will sign someone else in the summer. And as much as I like Garner, he is not good enough to improve on these players - yet.
But I believe he might be when he has played 40-50 matches more and got a big stronger and more consistent
But I believe he might be when he has played 40-50 matches more and got a big stronger and more consistent
Matic and Fred phased out, Garner in. Theres no reason he can't be given a chance to do what Fred does for us
We need a CDM in the summer. I hope for his sake and ours we buy a proper quality CDM so he can develop elsewhere for a season of two.
With an eye on the future, I'd be interested to see how a Garner, Hannibal, Fernandes midfield would work. Obviously with two youngsters in the double pivot, it's safe to assume we won't see it regularly. Besides, I'm fairly sure that Hannibal's breakthrough will consist mainly of appearances from out wide. However, it would represent something completely different for those who are fed up of the "McFred" partnership. Despite Bruno's high work-rate and Hannibal being more tenacious than Pogba for instance, I feel it would require a bit of a monster of a DM to make it work. Personally, I still think at least one more year on loan would be most beneficial for Garner.
nice, will watch.
In an ideal world we sell Matic and Fred this summer, buy a proper starting CDM and give Garner the squad role that would be left open. Knowing us, we would continue with Fred and Matic and then wonder wtf happened when we are nowhere near the league leaders next season again.
Hell yes.
In an ideal world we would change 5-6 of the starting 11.
But in our real-world scenario; given the financial constraints and how United operates, we have to make our choices based on the key priorities. Selling Fred this summer ain't a key priority. (No 9 and a CB are.)
And based on my eye test, Garner isn't ready to contribute but a few minutes in a match. So if we were to sell Fred, then there is a bigger hole in that position or the double pivot than before.
See this is the example of people being impressed with young players at youth level and then demanding they start. It’s a huge step up not playing us just the championship. He has been good at Forest overall so far but he needs more experience at this level, I still think he can make it here but always said some on here where max about just throwing him in
CDM is as big of a problem as CB, ST and RW. In reality under Ole we will have to improve all of those positions before we are able to compete with a team like City led by Pep. Yes I agree based on this current shit form of Martial, striker is a very big issue and has to be addressed, but I'd rather continue with Lindelof besides Maguire then have Fred start as many games as he does.
now this is interesting and, as you say, he’s playing simpler so far at Forest. Looks a bit like Carrick with a bit more bite and, perhaps, capable of being a defensive midfielder on his own eventually.
CDM is definitely a big issue but swapping Fred for Garner at this stage of his development is not the answer to this big issue. What you would have done is taken a problem and made it worse.
It is hard to talk about this without knowing what is going on behind the scenes, and especially without checking what Garner can do with better players around. Last year Garner already had a few games with our first team. From what I can remember he did not put a fut wrong in Europe League last year when playing against Partizan, AZ and Astana, and also in a few outings beside those. He was at least OK in all those matches, and he is certainly better player one year later with a lot of Championship minutes under his belt.
With young lads improvement comes with every game and every training, but team they are playing with is important in that period. Garner had hard time with Watford and honestly did not play his best game, but reason could be inexperience, but also the fact that Watford did not play game that suites his qualities. Now, with Forest he is improving really fast as he is playing in position and with fluidity around. Still, he is not playing with great players so his passes often ends with no end product cause teammates are not of the top quality. It is obvious that Forest is playing better football with him, ball running with more pace.
At the end, we do not know what is going on behind the scenes. In my opinion, we do not have a lot of money to invest, especially with covid around. At the best we will have 100m for signings, and maybe more only if one of the big guns leave (Pogba, De Gea, Martial). If one of those three leave, we will replace him with that money probably, or invest in someone else if De Gea leaves as we have Henderson and will probably add backup keeper than. For 100m in current market we can add 2-3 players, similar to year before. I really doubt we will pay more than 50m for one player, and that probably means no Sancho/Halland ets, unless Martial or De Gea leave. I guess we will add one midfielder as obviously we need help there even if Pogba stay with Matic close to an end, Lingard and Mata obviously leaving. I think it depends on what kind of midfielder we will get what kind of short term future is there for Garner. Preseason for sure with the first team, checking what he can do with good players around and than loan to PL club where he could get some minutes, or getting minutes with our first team as competition with Fred for DM. As Fred is not top DM, especially when we are attacking I would not be surprised to see Ole gamble on 20-21 years old Garner as Fred alternative.
With young lads improvement comes with every game and every training, but team they are playing with is important in that period. Garner had hard time with Watford and honestly did not play his best game, but reason could be inexperience, but also the fact that Watford did not play game that suites his qualities. Now, with Forest he is improving really fast as he is playing in position and with fluidity around. Still, he is not playing with great players so his passes often ends with no end product cause teammates are not of the top quality. It is obvious that Forest is playing better football with him, ball running with more pace.
At the end, we do not know what is going on behind the scenes. In my opinion, we do not have a lot of money to invest, especially with covid around. At the best we will have 100m for signings, and maybe more only if one of the big guns leave (Pogba, De Gea, Martial). If one of those three leave, we will replace him with that money probably, or invest in someone else if De Gea leaves as we have Henderson and will probably add backup keeper than. For 100m in current market we can add 2-3 players, similar to year before. I really doubt we will pay more than 50m for one player, and that probably means no Sancho/Halland ets, unless Martial or De Gea leave. I guess we will add one midfielder as obviously we need help there even if Pogba stay with Matic close to an end, Lingard and Mata obviously leaving. I think it depends on what kind of midfielder we will get what kind of short term future is there for Garner. Preseason for sure with the first team, checking what he can do with good players around and than loan to PL club where he could get some minutes, or getting minutes with our first team as competition with Fred for DM. As Fred is not top DM, especially when we are attacking I would not be surprised to see Ole gamble on 20-21 years old Garner as Fred alternative.
There was an article about Garner and his time at Nottingham Forest in the athletic, the other day.
They compared his output to Fred, as they might as some point in the future be competing for places.
Here's their smarterscout comparison, 'a site that gives players a rating from 0-99, relating to either how often they do a given stylistic action (such as shooting volume), or how effective they are (such as progressing the ball upfield) compared with others playing in their position.'
The main difference is that Fred is more active out of possession, but offers less from an attacking perspective. Garner’s contribution towards his Forest's chances is impressive for his position. Compared with other defensive midfielders, he gets into dangerous areas often.
The article mentioned that United are likely to monitor him during pre-season before deciding whether he goes on another loan, but he's unlikely to go back to Forest.
There were some very positive quotes about Garner from Chris Hughton (Forest manager), which are worth including:
“It is difficult to talk about next season because he is not our player. The only thing I can say is that we are really delighted with him. Not just with his contribution, but because of how he has settled in. That can be difficult for a young lad. Credit also has to go to the players here, because they all appreciate that they, at some stage, were that young player in the changing room. They have given him great support as he has found his feet here.”
“He is what you would expect from a young lad, he is not going to be a vocal character. I am not sure you would want him to be any different. You would want him to be exactly how he is — fairly quiet and fairly humble. He is somebody who tries to suck everything in and who appreciates where he is, what he has got and just having the opportunity to play.”
They compared his output to Fred, as they might as some point in the future be competing for places.
Here's their smarterscout comparison, 'a site that gives players a rating from 0-99, relating to either how often they do a given stylistic action (such as shooting volume), or how effective they are (such as progressing the ball upfield) compared with others playing in their position.'
The main difference is that Fred is more active out of possession, but offers less from an attacking perspective. Garner’s contribution towards his Forest's chances is impressive for his position. Compared with other defensive midfielders, he gets into dangerous areas often.
The article mentioned that United are likely to monitor him during pre-season before deciding whether he goes on another loan, but he's unlikely to go back to Forest.
There were some very positive quotes about Garner from Chris Hughton (Forest manager), which are worth including:
“It is difficult to talk about next season because he is not our player. The only thing I can say is that we are really delighted with him. Not just with his contribution, but because of how he has settled in. That can be difficult for a young lad. Credit also has to go to the players here, because they all appreciate that they, at some stage, were that young player in the changing room. They have given him great support as he has found his feet here.”
“He is what you would expect from a young lad, he is not going to be a vocal character. I am not sure you would want him to be any different. You would want him to be exactly how he is — fairly quiet and fairly humble. He is somebody who tries to suck everything in and who appreciates where he is, what he has got and just having the opportunity to play.”
I’d like to see Garner integrated into the first team next season. We can persist with McFred, as ugly as we know that will be, if we can bring in a top CB and a top CF.
We’ve talked a lot about bringing in a top CDM this summer but I’d only do that if we decide Garner isn’t a part of United’s future, next season or the season thereafter.
We’ve talked a lot about bringing in a top CDM this summer but I’d only do that if we decide Garner isn’t a part of United’s future, next season or the season thereafter.
tbh, I'd love to have Ndidi for the DM & a CB to pair with Maguire over an attacker. Ndidi would be a huge difference maker.
McTominay looks more suited to an attacking box-to-box role, and Matic is getting on in terms of age.
If we sell Fred, There'd still be room for James Garner to integrate into the team. We've been using two players to play the role of one player with the double pivot, and I'd rather not continue down that path longer than necessary.
I do echo your sentiment of wanting to integrate Garner into the first team, but he's not going to replace McFred over night, and a season as a understudy, provided he'd get enough games in the team, would be a good solution in my eyes.
Alternately, Garner on loan to a PL club, and keeping Fred for another year, as Ndidi/Bissouma or other fills the DM role.
Kid would be lambasted if he played for us regularly, he's nowhere near ready.
He needs at least another season of regular football elsewhere.
He needs at least another season of regular football elsewhere.
Comparing his statistics to Freds is absolutely pointless as Fred is playing in a far superior league. Fred would be like fecking Robocop in the championship with his insane fitness level.
Well, they do track metrics across both leagues, and all the metrics are adjusted to Premier League standard in an attempt to counter-act that pointless comparison you've mentioned.
I’d love to have Ndidi, but another raid on Leicester City would probably cost us 70m. And if we really do have a transfer watchest of that magnitude where we can spend 70m on a DM, then we really need to slap 120m on the table for Haaland and dare Dortmund to not accept it.
But if we could bring in both Haaland and Ndidi, oh my. (Not realistic, but am I not allowed to dream?). Garner can be Ndidi’s pupil while we work Fred out of the rotation over the next season and find a more suitable club for him in 22/23.
I think he looks like a tidy player but I think you really have to be an athlete to play in the Premier League these days and apart from the GK every position requires pace and he looks quite slow from what I have seen.
Playing Cardiff today away, will watch that game and really focus of Garner
Think he's a good player but I suspect if the club really rated him, he'd be here. This squad isn't good or deep enough to let good players go out on loan. Its rare of late that players at this club come back from a loan and go into the first time squad....
I don't really see the relevance of comparing him to Fred, if anything they would play together. A player like Fred absolutely has a place at top teams with his high energy and pressing ability, if anything he would play better alongside a deep playmaker which Garner has the potential to become. McTominay would be in greater danger as he doesn't really fill a specific role currently.
Like Laird?
Nick Powell's having a good season in the Championship for Stoke, by all accounts.
Hes also 27
To be fair - the one spot where you can get away without being express is CM. There is plenty of examples - Kroos, Scholes, Carrick, xavi etc. It’s more about workrate, positional play, touch and awareness.
James' current contract is until June 2022, with the option to extend for a further year., so let's say the club will exercise it and his contracts is until 2023.
Assuming he does not sign a new contract, he needs to finish this year strongly and hopefully can go on loan with a PL team that can play him regularly for the 2021/2022 season, and after that, he either: -
The club needs to be more practical with the Academy Graduates, either they make the grade (Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay, etc...) or they are sold with a decent fee so the club can get a return on their investment for training the players.
We should not persist with Academy Grads the same way we did with Andreas Pereira or Axel Tuanzebe (there is still hope for Axel)
Assuming he does not sign a new contract, he needs to finish this year strongly and hopefully can go on loan with a PL team that can play him regularly for the 2021/2022 season, and after that, he either: -
- Comes back to the team and competes for XI (which makes a good squad option if he can compete for a spot).
- Sold to another club and get a decent fee (15M-20M).
The club needs to be more practical with the Academy Graduates, either they make the grade (Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay, etc...) or they are sold with a decent fee so the club can get a return on their investment for training the players.
We should not persist with Academy Grads the same way we did with Andreas Pereira or Axel Tuanzebe (there is still hope for Axel)
Still stand by it. Been watching youth team football for a long time, Laird is a good player but again question why has he been no where near the first team squad?
Except he has... same as Garner
Because playing consistent first team football is far more important than training with Fernandes and Pogba every week and ending an entire season at an age where development is key with 400 minutes of competitive football?
Edit: and both have. Laird has even made a senior debut.
Genuinely wouldn’t mind us packing out the squad next season with Laird, Garner and the like and saving money on those areas for proper upgrades at CF and RW. They’ve proven themselves on loan, now they should get a shot here.
Sounds like a really good idea. Solidify top 4 aspirations as early as we can.