James McClean: 'Does being abused for being Irish and anti Irish abuse acceptable?'

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Majima

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In the article that started this thread ?
Ok I worded it badly. I meant it in that, racism against white people is glossed over and rarely highlighted in the news/society. Be it anti-Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English/Whites. It isn't really seen as a thing. You're just told to stop whining and get over it etc.

Perfect example is the Netflix show called 'Dear White People'. If you were to inverse the roles: white people criticising, discriminating, insulting and putting down black people and their culture... Would that be allowed in our current society? So i fail to see the difference.

I'm not surprised by it, but I think you should be able to call out these things.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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Most do and thats the problem
Yeah, but its not an uncomman thing, people bag on about how NI has changed, has it feck, same views and same intrenched hatred that it was never going to work. Just dont think I am someone who supports them views or has any bigatory or hatred in me.
 

Righteous Steps

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Ok I worded it badly. I meant it in that, racism against white people is glossed over and rarely highlighted in the news/society. Be it anti-Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English/Whites. It isn't really seen as a thing. You're just told to stop whining and get over it etc.

Perfect example is the Netflix show called 'Dear White People'. If you were to inverse the roles: white people criticising, discriminating, insulting and putting down black people and their culture... Would that be allowed in our current society? So i fail to see the difference.

I'm not surprised by it, but I think you should be able to call out these things.
Yeah probably.:lol:
 

andyox

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Maybe so, and I do believe that Blair and his acolytes milked her death for all it was worth. But Diana's death does seem to have been the catalyst for change in how we mourn the dead. What used to be a private matter is now far more public.
I agree that it could've been a turning point. We're further along that self-absorbed road now, in the time when people believe it's more important to show others that they're at an event than it is to actually enjoy the event.
I hadn't actually thought to connect it to Diana, interesting theory.

I live in the US for work at the moment, and to me the way that poppy remembrance has morphed over recent years seems like culturally we're moving towards US-style patriotism, which is heavily conflated with the military. I don't know if there's any political gain to it in the UK though? Which is why I struggle to explain it. Trump often uses the US military and his support for the troops etc. as political points scoring. I don't see that so much in UK politics so I don't know what's driven the change in the UK. Someone must feel they're benefiting from it surely.
 

SteveJ

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I hadn't actually thought to connect it to Diana, interesting theory.

I live in the US for work at the moment, and to me the way that poppy remembrance has morphed over recent years seems like culturally we're moving towards US-style patriotism, which is heavily conflated with the military. I don't know if there's any political gain to it in the UK though? Which is why I struggle to explain it. Trump often uses the US military and his support for the troops etc. as political points scoring. I don't see that so much in UK politics.
It's because, increasingly, politicians can't get a genuine public mandate for the conflicts they involve us in, so they've had to resort to forced nationalism.
 

stevoc

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James McClean is an Irish version of Wayne Rooney. Not the sharpest tool in the shed.

If you walked into a bar full of English hooligans and started singing and shouting 'The English are losers and clowns'... Then it probably wouldn't end well. When in Rome.....
McClean maybe could have found a better more respectful way politely declining the request to sing God save the Queen, instead of looking to the ground like he's in disgust. It was never going to end well for him. He should try and engineer a move to the Bundesliga or something if he's not happy to follow the customs and traditions in England.

I feel he's genuinely a very big hearted guy. Just not too bright.
Are you not allowed to look wherever you want while a national anthem is being played now?

Also didn't this happen in America during pre-season?

Fair enough turning round slightly was a bit much and unnecessary but i find it hard to believe anyone sensible was actually offended by him quietly looking at the ground while the anthem played.

And let be honest here that isn't the biggest reason he gets continued abuse. He gets abused because he's an Irishman who won't wear the Poppy. No one deserves the level of abuse he gets for things like not wearing a fake flower or standing in a different direction while an anthem is being played.
 

Moriarty

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I hadn't actually thought to connect it to Diana, interesting theory.

I live in the US for work at the moment, and to me the way that poppy remembrance has morphed over recent years seems like culturally we're moving towards US-style patriotism, which is heavily conflated with the military. I don't know if there's any political gain to it in the UK though? Which is why I struggle to explain it. Trump often uses the US military and his support for the troops etc. as political points scoring. I don't see that so much in UK politics.
As the old adage goes, 'when America sneezes, Britain catches a cold'. The UK does worship the military, by and large, though not to the same degree as the USA. Perhaps it's moving towards that. The only British politicians that I recall ever flag-waving for the troops was Thatcher and her mates in 1982 and with good reason. Her popularity was on the same level as whale shit at the time and that bit of aggro in the Falklands arguably ensured she remained PM.
 

2 man midfield

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Sorry but he chose to take a stand on a completely a-political issue. The poppy has nothing to do with British imperialism or Irish nationalism.

I'm no nationalist, I hate the Ingerland bullshit as much as anyone. But McLean's brought this on himself. He doesn't deserve abuse or death threats - no-one does - but he can't complain about the controversy.
He stood up for what he believed in. He should have the right to do so without being subjected to racial abuse. If we’re as multi-cultural and progressive as we like to believe we are in this country, that should extend to everyone, no matter whether you agree with their choice or not.
 

predator

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I think the problem McLean has is that he is identified as a Republican, not just white Irish, and has done things that has upset Unionists/loyalists in NI and GB. The 2 main things are being born in the UK but opting to play for the ROI and obviously the whole not wearing the poppy etc. I am not condoning it, just giving my opinion.
Such a terrible post I wouldn't even know where to start responding. If this reflects a considerable proportion of viewpoints then I truly give up. Theres more to the world than Britain.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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Such a terrible post I wouldn't even know where to start responding. If this reflects a considerable proportion of viewpoints then I truly give up. Theres more to the world than Britain.
I dont agree with it....... Im saying how alot of people think, in NI especially. I dont really see how its a terrible post, its an opinion.
 

stevoc

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I think the problem McLean has is that he is identified as a Republican, not just white Irish, and has done things that has upset Unionists/loyalists in NI and GB. The 2 main things are being born in the UK but opting to play for the ROI and obviously the whole not wearing the poppy etc. I am not condoning it, just giving my opinion.
Thats his right, he has the option of choosing UK or Irish citizenship. No reasonable person should have a problem with that.
 

JohnnyKills

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He stood up for what he believed in. He should have the right to do so without being subjected to racial abuse. If we’re as multi-cultural and progressive as we like to believe we are in this country, that should extend to everyone, no matter whether you agree with their choice or not.
Agree, racial abuse is never justified.
 

Morpheus 7

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@InLevyITrust I've read all your posts on this thread, there is reason your being quoted so much and it's ignorance. The same double standards that the FA have towards the issue of race and discrimination. I don't like James McClean but admire him for bringing up this issue. Who are you to be judging McClean for playing for the ROI, if you knew the sectarianism involved with Northern Ireland international team you would understand. It's hard to not take the troubles out of this issue, if you knew where he group up it's understandable him not wearing a poppy. I grew up in Northern Ireland on a border town and I wouldn't wear one but understand why people do, I have respect for there right too. It comes down to freedom of choice, people and the British press making an issue of it. Politics should never be in football in opinion. Your giving your opinion but it's snidey remarks with properly saying what you think of McClean. He grew up in Derry or London-Derry on the border. He's not wearing it because of how it impacted his family growing up. It's not a fecking fashion statement or trying to be controversial, there is a reason behind it. Regardless of your political view or mine, nobody should be forced to wear something that they don't agree with.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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@InLevyITrust I've read all your posts on this thread, there is reason your being quoted so much and it's ignorance. The same double standards that the FA have towards the issue of race and discrimination. I don't like James McClean but admire him for bringing up this issue. Who are you to be judging McClean for playing for the ROI, if you knew the sectarianism involved with Northern Ireland international team you would understand. It's hard to not take the troubles out of this issue, if you knew where he group up it's understandable him not wearing a poppy. I grew up in Northern Ireland on a border town and I wouldn't wear one but understand why people do, I have respect for there right too. It comes down to freedom of choice, people and the British press making an issue of it. Politics should never be in football in opinion. Your giving your opinion but it's snidey remarks with properly saying what you think of McClean. He grew up in Derry or London-Derry on the border. He's not wearing it because of how it impacted his family growing up. It's not a fecking fashion statement or trying to be controversial, there is a reason behind it. Regardless of your political view or mine, nobody should be forced to wear something that they don't agree with.
Well clearly you havent read all my posts, I am giving reasons as to why some narrow minded people do. McLean has every right to play for the ROI as does Rice to play for England. Where ANYWHERE do I say he shouldn't, or indeed I judge him for doing so. I have said it repeatedly. I also respect him for not wearing the poppy as I feel its personaly choice if you do or not.
 

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Good man James for speaking out on those cretins at the FA.

I find that it's a white people thing in general, that people can say whatever they like to us and we're supposed to just take it. When do you hear of white people complaining of racism?
All the time. It's usually completely ridiculous, like some white dude trying to equate being called honkey that one time to the lifetime of abuse POC usually have to go through.
 

stevoc

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I agree but you do realise some Irish people resent Declan Rice for choosing England?
I've no doubt mate, if there are they are stupid twats too.

No one should have a problem with an Irish guy choosing to play for Ireland. Same with Rice representing England.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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I've no doubt mate, if there are they are stupid twats too.

No one should have a problem with an Irish guy choosing to play for Ireland. Same with Rice representing England.
Agreed, I think me giving reasons as to why people judge him has meant people think I agree with said reasons, I DONT.
 

predator

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I dont agree with it....... Im saying how alot of people think, in NI especially. I dont really see how its a terrible post, its an opinion.
We all know that though. Fair enough if you're simply stating the absolute obvious but your original post seemed to also ignore the reason so many stand with McLean, from all backgrounds.
 

Sandikan

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In England a lot of people think of the Poppy as a sign of peace.
A guy who refuses to do so will of course get a lot of attention. I don't think anyone can find that surprising.

Most won't be bothered to listen to his reasoning. They probably should do.


However, in football we have loads of irrational dislikes and likes. I can't stand him just for his style of football and sheer mediocrity. :wenger:
 

JohnnyKills

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@InLevyITrust I've read all your posts on this thread, there is reason your being quoted so much and it's ignorance. The same double standards that the FA have towards the issue of race and discrimination. I don't like James McClean but admire him for bringing up this issue. Who are you to be judging McClean for playing for the ROI, if you knew the sectarianism involved with Northern Ireland international team you would understand. It's hard to not take the troubles out of this issue, if you knew where he group up it's understandable him not wearing a poppy. I grew up in Northern Ireland on a border town and I wouldn't wear one but understand why people do, I have respect for there right too. It comes down to freedom of choice, people and the British press making an issue of it. Politics should never be in football in opinion. Your giving your opinion but it's snidey remarks with properly saying what you think of McClean. He grew up in Derry or London-Derry on the border. He's not wearing it because of how it impacted his family growing up. It's not a fecking fashion statement or trying to be controversial, there is a reason behind it. Regardless of your political view or mine, nobody should be forced to wear something that they don't agree with.
What is the actual issue with the poppy for Irish republicans though? Not trying to start a squabble, just generally interested.

Surely this is an a-political thing, commemorating the lives of thousands of people who died pointlessly over 100 years ago. It's not like Help for Heroes, which celebrates modern British militarism (and, to me, should have no place in football). If anything, the narrative against the poppy and WW1 is anti-nationalist, not pro.

All the above is my personal opinion and, as I say, I'm not looking for a fight on what is clearly a very divisive issue. Just want to find out why the poppy is such a big deal for some people.
 

stevoc

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Agreed, I think me giving reasons as to why people judge him has meant people think I agree with said reasons, I DONT.
Probably mate but its an emotive issue as you'll know. For the record i didn't think you held those views.
 

stevoc

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In England a lot of people think of the Poppy as a sign of peace.
A guy who refuses to do so will of course get a lot of attention. I don't think anyone can find that surprising.

Most won't be bothered to listen to his reasoning. They probably should do.


However, in football we have loads of irrational dislikes and likes. I can't stand him just for his style of football and sheer mediocrity. :wenger:
I think it's come to represent something else for a lot of people in Britain also though.
 

shamans

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This idea of a "white person" needs to be fixed because people misuse the term. When people talk about "white people" it should be people of priviledge instead. In my unpopular opinion this includes non white people too. There is a privileged class in every society.

Are polish people white? Becuase they sure as hell can complain about racism towards them.

Also ginger people. I dont get how its accepted to make fun of gingers.
 

LilyWhiteSpur

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:lol: Just a tongue-in-cheek dig at how most Unionists/Loyalists have terribly outdated world views. Not all, obviously but progressive, forward thinking, open minded, accepting, Unionists are very thin on the ground.
Id agree, I dont vote any more TBH, there is such a gap right now that a progressive unionist party would do amazing well in NI anyway. The DUP are biggoted thieves who are in compitent and the UUP are just non exsistant.
 
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