Jorginho | Arsenal player

Problem is Sarri - the guy is an average manager and you can see it from his tactics.

Ah yes. The guy whose football Arrigo Sacchi described as "the most important thing seen in Italy in the last 20 years", and who described Sarri as a "genius", and who Pep Guardiola has called "one of the best managers out there" is clearly average because of his tactics..

His tactics. Sweet jesus..
 
Ah yes. The guy whose football Arrigo Sacchi described as "the most important thing seen in Italy in the last 20 years", and who described Sarri as a "genius", and who Pep Guardiola has called "one of the best managers out there" is clearly average because of his tactics..

His tactics. Sweet jesus..

TBF, his tactics have won him feck all in a pretty long career. I feel he's a good manager, but too stubborn to be considered one of the greats of this generation. Pep etc. have their ideals, but have adapted from team to team.
 
Ah yes. The guy whose football Arrigo Sacchi described as "the most important thing seen in Italy in the last 20 years", and who described Sarri as a "genius", and who Pep Guardiola has called "one of the best managers out there" is clearly average because of his tactics..

His tactics. Sweet jesus..

Easy to praise someone who isn't a threat to you
 
Ah yes. The guy whose football Arrigo Sacchi described as "the most important thing seen in Italy in the last 20 years", and who described Sarri as a "genius", and who Pep Guardiola has called "one of the best managers out there" is clearly average because of his tactics..

His tactics. Sweet jesus..
Pep praises the most random things though. A Pep quote doesn't mean much.
 

Xavi and Pirli had fantastic assist records.
You don't have to lead the assist tables but you have to contribute going forward. England has had many midfielders who can pass the ball safe and sideways. Its literally all he has done for Chelsea so far and we used to lambast Matic for doing the exact same thing for us.
So far he's a far lesser version of Ray Wilkins (English midfielder)
 
Ah yes. The guy whose football Arrigo Sacchi described as "the most important thing seen in Italy in the last 20 years", and who described Sarri as a "genius", and who Pep Guardiola has called "one of the best managers out there" is clearly average because of his tactics..

His tactics. Sweet jesus..

He is obviously a good manager, but playing his 2 best players out of position as an experiment is one thing, but to continue doing it is another all together. I understand the thought process behind playing Hazard as a striker, but it obviously isn't working. But playing Kante anywhere but as a DM is just plain stupid. If it were up to me, I'd play Chelsea in a 4-2-3-1. Kante is the pitbull and Jorginho as the passer. Much like Gattuso and Pirlo were for Milan. Then he can put Hazard in the "Kaka" role in the #10 and still have Willian and Pedro on the wings and either Morata (is he gone? I think it's too early to give up on him)
or Giroud in the #9 (or Higuian soon)
 
He is obviously a good manager, but playing his 2 best players out of position as an experiment is one thing, but to continue doing it is another all together. I understand the thought process behind playing Hazard as a striker, but it obviously isn't working. But playing Kante anywhere but as a DM is just plain stupid. If it were up to me, I'd play Chelsea in a 4-2-3-1. Kante is the pitbull and Jorginho as the passer. Much like Gattuso and Pirlo were for Milan. Then he can put Hazard in the "Kaka" role in the #10 and still have Willian and Pedro on the wings and either Morata (is he gone? I think it's too early to give up on him)
or Giroud in the #9 (or Higuian soon)

It's not an experiment. It's him turning a club that have been a fairly defensive counter-attacking side for years, into an attacking, possession based side. It's funny though that people talk about Kante as a DM. You know how many Premier League games Kante has played as a DM? 6. Those were the 6 first games of Conte, where we were fairly shit. At Leicester, Drinkwater was the defensive midfielder, not Kante. Kante has never been a DM, and the fact so many people think that he is, says quite a bit about the level of understanding people have about Sarri and his tactics.

I put myself in that same bracket by the way, I don't pretend I understand the intricacies of what he's doing, but this idea that he's just playing people out of position, and should fall back on the same tactics the club used to use is deeply flawed. The players don't want that (see David Luiz interview today), the club don't want that, and all it would do is throw away the progress Sarri has made over the last 6 months and achieve nothing. Just like Pep and Klopp both needed a season to settle in, so does Sarri. It's way too early to be saying his tactics don't work, when he's only had half a season and one transfer window (and even then he didn't arrive at the club until late in pre-season).
 
It's not an experiment. It's him turning a club that have been a fairly defensive counter-attacking side for years, into an attacking, possession based side. It's funny though that people talk about Kante as a DM. You know how many Premier League games Kante has played as a DM? 6. Those were the 6 first games of Conte, where we were fairly shit. At Leicester, Drinkwater was the defensive midfielder, not Kante. Kante has never been a DM, and the fact so many people think that he is, says quite a bit about the level of understanding people have about Sarri and his tactics.

I put myself in that same bracket by the way, I don't pretend I understand the intricacies of what he's doing, but this idea that he's just playing people out of position, and should fall back on the same tactics the club used to use is deeply flawed. The players don't want that (see David Luiz interview today), the club don't want that, and all it would do is throw away the progress Sarri has made over the last 6 months and achieve nothing. Just like Pep and Klopp both needed a season to settle in, so does Sarri. It's way too early to be saying his tactics don't work, when he's only had half a season and one transfer window (and even then he didn't arrive at the club until late in pre-season).

Kante is not a DM and has only played 6 games in that position? Puff, puff, pass my friend. Puff, puff, pass...
 
Kante is not a DM and has only played 6 games in that position? Puff, puff, pass my friend. Puff, puff, pass...

Yes, Kante is not a DM and apart from a few games under Conte before he switched to a back 3, has never played at DM. Why do you think he is?
 
Both Drinkwater and Matic tended to sit deeper and Kante would push higher and win the ball further up the pitch, like when Carrick and Fletcher played together for us.

Kante's at his best in a midfield pairing, rather than as the holding midfielder in a three. I also like how someone brought up Milan where it was Pirlo who sat deeper and Gattuso pressed higher up the pitch.

Sarri should just play them together as a pair in a 4-2-3-1.
 
Yes, Kante is not a DM and apart from a few games under Conte before he switched to a back 3, has never played at DM. Why do you think he is?

He played the deepest of the CMs when next to King or in a 2 both deep CMs at Leicester. He's as much a DM as Matic and Ander are for us
 
Both Drinkwater and Matic tended to sit deeper and Kante would push higher and win the ball further up the pitch, like when Carrick and Fletcher played together for us.

Kante's at his best in a midfield pairing, rather than as the holding midfielder in a three. I also like how someone brought up Milan where it was Pirlo who sat deeper and Gattuso pressed higher up the pitch.

Sarri should just play them together as a pair in a 4-2-3-1.

The problem with that is that then Jorginho as the regista is pushed to one side, unbalancing the distribution.
 
Kante is making far fewer tackles than in previous seasons 1.5 per game compared to 3.5+ in all previous seasons. Yet not offering much going forward.

Jorginho is still making similar numbers of passes and passing accuracy as previous seasons but making far fewer key passes and less (zero) assists.

We've only scored 4 goals in last 5 games and not creating much including 3 blanks, partly due to not having a striker on the pitch.

Sarri has a lot of work to do, finding a better balance in midfield and finding creativity without being too open defensively.
 
Yes, Kante is not a DM and apart from a few games under Conte before he switched to a back 3, has never played at DM. Why do you think he is?

how would you categorize his position then for France and Leicester. He's all over the place making tackles and interceptions. Are you working with the concept that DM's just operate from inside their own half. Call him box to box etc, his primary role when used in the correct format is a defensive one.
 
Yes, Kante is not a DM and apart from a few games under Conte before he switched to a back 3, has never played at DM. Why do you think he is?

Are you Sarri in disguise trying to convince the world that Kante isn't a DM??? My god, I think he is a DM because he is a DM.
 
how would you categorize his position then for France and Leicester. He's all over the place making tackles and interceptions. Are you working with the concept that DM's just operate from inside their own half. Call him box to box etc, his primary role when used in the correct format is a defensive one.

Allan was able to make tackles and interceptions last season playing in the exact same role. And Kante has not really played in the position Jorginho is playing right now. Even at Caen Suebe was in front of the back four and Kante was on the right side of a three man midfield.
 
Kante is not playing as a ball winning midfielder for Chelsea. The pressing positions he takes up are virtually no.10 territory. Not to mention he is often on the last line when Chelsea are attacking similar to an attacking midfielder.

Jorginho and Kante as a pairing is fine, but Sarri insists on having Jorginho all by his lonesome. To be honest, Jorginho and Kante with Kovacic/Barkley ahead of them is a good setup. Has Sarri ever tried that? I don't recall Chelsea going with a 4-2-3-1 like that this season.
 
Chelsea need Kovavcic and Barkley to be more of a goal threat. Plus both their wingers to take up postions in the box interchangeably whenever Hazard is employed as a false 9. Above all they simply need Higuan to hit the ground running. Their bluntness in the box is shocking and its wrongly making people scape goat their midfield creativity and Kant and Jorginho's roles. Yet compared to last season they arr creating way more. Just no one is taking them chances.
 
Kante is not playing as a ball winning midfielder for Chelsea. The pressing positions he takes up are virtually no.10 territory. Not to mention he is often on the last line when Chelsea are attacking similar to an attacking midfielder.

Jorginho and Kante as a pairing is fine, but Sarri insists on having Jorginho all by his lonesome. To be honest, Jorginho and Kante with Kovacic/Barkley ahead of them is a good setup. Has Sarri ever tried that? I don't recall Chelsea going with a 4-2-3-1 like that this season.

I think Sarri should think about the 3-4-3 Wolves play, as it would seem to suit a few of their key back 7 guys quite well (specifically Kante, Azpilicueta and Alonso), assuming it still works for what he's trying to do tactically. But I think they could make enough triangles with Higuain dropping deep and Luiz stepping up.


-----Hazard-Higuain-Pedro-------
Alonso--Kante-Jorginho-----RWB
----Rudiger--Luiz--Azpilicueta--

and I guess they'd have to buy an attacking RWB with real pace and crossing ability on the right, someone like Meunier, Sidibe or Ricardo Pereira would seem to have the pace and ability in the final third to make sense, but I'm sure there are others.

You get Kante in a double pivot again, Azpilicueta gets to defend and most of his assists come when he's tucked in anyways, Alonso gets freedom to attack and Luiz gets help in defense and to hit long passes to the wingbacks or wide forwards.

And obviously it's easy to switch back to a 4-3-3 by just hauling off Azpilicueta or the RWB and throwing on a 3rd central midfielders.
 
To be honest, Jorginho and Kante with Kovacic/Barkley ahead of them is a good setup..

Kovacic hasn't scored a goal in over 3 and a half years and watching him this season its easy to see why.
The guy simply offers nothing! He coasts through game after game getting subbed every game but somehow our manager forgets how pathetic he is and picks him again for the next match repeat and rince.
Send him back to Madrid and take that other imposter (Jorghino) with him! Buy a couple of proper mildfielders who actually do something and we might start moving again as a club.
 
Kovacic hasn't scored a goal in over 3 and a half years and watching him this season its easy to see why.
The guy simply offers nothing! He coasts through game after game getting subbed every game but somehow our manager forgets how pathetic he is and picks him again for the next match repeat and rince.
Send him back to Madrid and take that other imposter (Jorghino) with him! Buy a couple of proper mildfielders who actually do something and we might start moving again as a club.

I'm sorry but this quite an emotional and not very well thought-out post. What does labelling Jorginho an "imposter" add to the discussion?
 

I get his point but Jorginho is vastly inferior to those two players. Xavi was dynamic and could run for days, his was flawless, long and short and he was incredibly skilful. Pirlo's long range passing was second to none.
Jorginho has yet to show those qualities.
 
Are you Sarri in disguise trying to convince the world that Kante isn't a DM??? My god, I think he is a DM because he is a DM.
At Leicester and Chelsea he played as the furfest forward in a midfield two, proactively anticipating the ball with a Matic/Drinkwater sitting in behind to sweep up when he's wiped out of games. Play him DM he either sits and only plays in a small pocket of space neglecting his two biggest strengths or he goes hunting which leaves a huge gap whenever teams evade him, case in point, this goal from Ozil



Ozil got the freedom of The Emirates to run into space that Kante vacated to press high.

So no, he isn't a CDM and most definitely not a lone CDM.
 
TBF, his tactics have won him feck all in a pretty long career. I feel he's a good manager, but too stubborn to be considered one of the greats of this generation. Pep etc. have their ideals, but have adapted from team to team.

Pep hasn't really adapted ha she? He's renowned for his stubbornness and obviously has complete belief in 'playing the right way' because of the success it has brought. There is a very valid argument that it's unfair to compare Pep and Sarri because one has essentially cherry picked jobs and the other has worked his way up from the amateur Italian leagues but I see the similarity stylistically in how they play.

For what it's worth I think there is an issue within the Chelsea squad's mentality as they are aware their owner has no issue with the rinse and repeat approach to managers. They are after all, more successful than any PL club in the last decade. Why bother learning how to play under Sarri when they'll likely have to change approach again and again? The one manager who came in and dominated everyone (Pep inc.) was Conte and I suspect that was because he is reportedly such a ball buster that everyone towed the line and then, naturally, they keep the effort up when they're in with a chance of winning the league. This season, as soon as the league became unrealistic they just seemed to drop a level.
 
Both Drinkwater and Matic tended to sit deeper and Kante would push higher and win the ball further up the pitch, like when Carrick and Fletcher played together for us.

Kante's at his best in a midfield pairing, rather than as the holding midfielder in a three. I also like how someone brought up Milan where it was Pirlo who sat deeper and Gattuso pressed higher up the pitch.

Sarri should just play them together as a pair in a 4-2-3-1.

You’re 100% correct. Used to annoy me when people said the same about Fletcher during his prime for us. Carrick would sit and Fletcher would press forward.
 
May be because he has no runners running in behind defenses.

No it means that he's not that good at doing it. Maybe that's why there are no runners. More likely of course is that it's not really in Sarris concept.
 
I get his point but Jorginho is vastly inferior to those two players. Xavi was dynamic and could run for days, his was flawless, long and short and he was incredibly skilful. Pirlo's long range passing was second to none.
Jorginho has yet to show those qualities.

Xavi and Pirlo did assist as well. They both got 13 in their best season since 09/10. It’s a high total when you consider 18 is KDB’s best total in England.
 
I'm sorry but this quite an emotional and not very well thought-out post. What does labelling Jorginho an "imposter" add to the discussion?
A star in a now very moderate, very slow, poorly competitive league where the national side couldn't even qualify for the World Cup. Here in the EPL he's already been found out and now looks like nothing more than a tippy tappy indoor five a side player masquerading as a playmaking midfield general. He is woefully lacking physically and stagerringly limited with the ball with seemingly no vision beyond a few yards. I cannot wait to see him go.
 
At Leicester and Chelsea he played as the furfest forward in a midfield two, proactively anticipating the ball with a Matic/Drinkwater sitting in behind to sweep up when he's wiped out of games. Play him DM he either sits and only plays in a small pocket of space neglecting his two biggest strengths or he goes hunting which leaves a huge gap whenever teams evade him, case in point, this goal from Ozil



Ozil got the freedom of The Emirates to run into space that Kante vacated to press high.

So no, he isn't a CDM and most definitely not a lone CDM.


At Leicester they played a 4-4-2 counter attack. Both Drinkwater and Kante sat back. Both DM's and neither an attacking midfielder. Yes, Kante moved around a lot more, because he has the energy. At Chelsea, Matic was the holding midfielder and Kante was the DM, much like Pirlo and Gattuso and AC Milan. On France, he sits the deepest. Kante is a defensive midfielder. He is not a #8 or a #10. He is a #6. Always has been and always will be. That's why I said he should be playing along side Jorginho, not in front of him. Chelsea should be playing a 4-2-3-1 with an attacking midfielder in front of them. Probably Hazard. The fact that you continue to argue this is mind boggling. Every week I'm hearing pundits talking about how he is being played out of position. Even whoscored has him listed as a DM. But go on, tell us again how he has "only played 6 games as a DM"...SMH

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/114075/Show/N-Golo-Kanté
 
At Leicester they played a 4-4-2 counter attack. Both Drinkwater and Kante sat back. Both DM's and neither an attacking midfielder. Yes, Kante moved around a lot more, because he has the energy. At Chelsea, Matic was the holding midfielder and Kante was the DM, much like Pirlo and Gattuso and AC Milan. On France, he sits the deepest. Kante is a defensive midfielder. He is not a #8 or a #10. He is a #6. Always has been and always will be. That's why I said he should be playing along side Jorginho, not in front of him. Chelsea should be playing a 4-2-3-1 with an attacking midfielder in front of them. Probably Hazard. The fact that you continue to argue this is mind boggling. Every week I'm hearing pundits talking about how he is being played out of position. Even whoscored has him listed as a DM. But go on, tell us again how he has "only played 6 games as a DM"...SMH

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/114075/Show/N-Golo-Kanté
Yeah he sits the deepest at France and hasn't ever particularly stood out of them and got hauled off in the world cup final because Croatia were regularly exploiting space he was leaving by pressing high. There could be an argument for playing him next to Jorginho especially if we revert back to counter attack but swapping them around would be an unmitigating disaster.

As for pundits, i would take even the view of the most blinkered person on here over most pundits, most of them are agenda ridden morons at best and plain stupid at worst. To handpick some shockers they berated Harry Redknapp for playing Luka Modric deeper a decision that all be it years on won him a Balon Dor, murdered Jose for turning up on these shores and dropping Cudicini, low key racially abused Pochettino because he was apparently inferior to Nigel Adkins, amoungst other delights. There's a reason why they are in the sky/BT/BBC studio's while the men making these "baffling" decisions are managing in major leagues.