We were awful against Arsenal and City, it's just that we took our chances and had a world class goalkeeper save our bacon.
José Mourinho | 2018/19 Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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Yeah because in football only the team that plays well wins all the game everytime.
Agreed. The sooner Jose realises Lukaku isn’t Zlatan (or Drogba, come to that) the better. He’s played more fluid forward lines that suit Lukaku better, particularly when he’s been allowed to operate more on the right, but seems to revert to “one up front” as a default.
Is his contract up next Summer or did he actually sign that 1 year extension? Seems like mixed reports.
As regards to Mourinho and Martial I think maybe That Martial should have phoned to say he wanted more time off.
Then of Mourinho, he needs to change his ways instead of always rowing with players, and pointing it out to the public.
Then of Mourinho, he needs to change his ways instead of always rowing with players, and pointing it out to the public.
Contract is up in 2020. Then option for 2021.
You mean we created good chances, scored, and our keeper did his job. Nice.
Someone should tell Simeone or Aleggri that they are doing it wrong.
No wonder Guardiola and Sarri have been lighting up the Champions League while these no marks have been trying to close down games by defending and losing because of poor tactics.
Thankfully most of the people in here (including me) don't actually go watch matches regularly or ever. Most are armchair experts who play way too much FM and think they are better than most managers now.I think it would go a long way if supporters got behind Mourinho and the team. It would make Jose happier, and energize the team. We should all unite together instead of encouraging the constant negativity of media. (but no flying posters please)
The constant agenda against Jose and the team is beyond ridiculous.
Jose is by no means a saint, and he could have come up with better worded statements in some of the press conferences, but it's clear that the media has a thing against him, and most of these fickle fans buy into this.
This place has been nothing but a cesspit in the last month, with some really depressing comments about the players and Jose. Hopefully, once we start playing again, some of this negativity goes away.
A peak possession based system will beat a peak counter attacking team, that's a perfectly valid opinion. Who said anything about them being no marks?
We did not. Mata came in only in January when the season was as good as gone and Fellaini was fallback option we got almost at 1 of september. Which means that club failed to back the manager accordingly. We failed to sign anyone that summer. Part of it was Moyes fault of course. But we were interested in Cesc, Thiago, Kroos back then and United could have paid over the odds, like we did with Pogba and Lukaku, to get one of them.
That sort of reasoning is circular, whenever a possession team loses you can say it wasn't their peak and vice versa. Even then it would be a stalemate since both are designed to counter each other.
The only sensible thing to do is to go by actual performances, and not hypotheticals that are created to form a specific conclusion.
Based on performance possession based teams do not out perform counter attacking teams and vice versa. Both systems have shown to be very good at the top level, and if anything the ability to do both is the 'best' way to play.
Consider this while Jose was manager of Real and Chelsea he did enjoy some degree of support, and even then a lot of fans did not support him, esp in Real. But as soon as he was out - most of Real fans, most of Chelsea's consider him a shitty person and perfectly happy to have other managers in charge. Do they have the same attitude towards next managers? Clearly no. Conte has not done great this past season, but majority of Chelsea's fans would not say a bad word about him.
The clear evidence is there. There is no "thing" against Jose or anything, that's just nonsense he would like for more clueless fans to believe, but in fact Jose gets exactly what he deserves. A lot of scandals he creates himself. Without any sort of justification. His attacks everybody in the media. Just look at how many conflicts he's had here and in London, and in Madrid as well. That's not a coincidence or a conspiracy. He behaves like a spoiled child of lot of times and gets a flak for it. Take a situation with Conte, what sort of a normal person would behave like Jose did. None. He behaved like a bitter person and an ass.
If some would ask football fans or players, managers of every team "who do you think has a worse personality in football", Jose would be an overwhelming favorite for that one. And that is a situation of his own making.
Is this the same Conte that over celebrated the third Chelsea goal like a right Dick?
I disagree. I think most of the Chelsea fans and Inter fans that I have come across still love/respect Jose.
Jose speaks his mind sometimes, and that might not sit well with a lot of younger players. But he has an equal number of players who respond to him and look back at their time fondly.
He hasn't done anything to be loved by United fans as of yet, but again, he's done nothing for fans to hate him either. For me he's somewhere in the middle.
And speaking of the media, the amount of normal quotes which were taken out of context and spun negatively by the media is insane. The sad part is most fans seem to gobble it up.
The manager had completely unrealistic targets. As far as I remember, both Cesc and Thiago were already bound to other clubs. And Kroos was at the end of the season. Moyes was also chasing Bale for some reason. If I as a manager go out and chase Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar and fail to get all 3, is it the board's fault or my fault? Managers should always look for targets that are realistically obtainable.
We overpaid for Pogba because we had no CL football. And by the time we got Lukaku, the price was reasonable considering how much the market got inflated in recent years.
Even though I'm with @Vilev point of view - This is because Chelsea & Inter Milan were under dogs historically under the likes of United/arsenal & Juventus & AC Milan.
They think of Jose highly because he made both of those clubs rise from the under dog position in to becoming a big club in their leagues - and in case of inter Milan; a treble across the world.
These underdog type clubs have almost no external pressure placed on Jose mourinho - nothing in relation to Real Madrid & Manchester United - clubs that has a history of success & therefor have an expectation, an ethos about how the football should be played, with who it should be played - nearly every move is judged by fans of clubs that are no newbie in to success.
It's what is happening with out fans right now - they are split right in half with fans who are crying for success, any type of success never mind how it is achieved & then there is fans who want United to play beautiful football whilst playing & winning things the way that is an extension of our history whilst benefiting our future.
The best club Jose could have joined on his return to England is in my eyes Liverpool before Klopp. A club that has been so consistently far away from the PL title for multiple decades - so the pressure would have been low.
Jose and some of his biggest backers need to come off this idea that the fans that don't warm up to him are sheep being influenced by the media. Afaik a lot of his bad press with United fans came from things on the pitch and things he said off it, including the Liverpool away game (for right or wrong reasons), shamelessly flirting with PSG, his taking jabs at the fans for groaning at his favourites, the Sevilla disaster and his postmatch comments. signing Sanchez and looking just as uninspired made people begin to consider whether our dull play was really down to the players or the tactics.
We now have a new season which should mean all of that is put behind us but he's kicking it off by endlessly moaning to the press and bringing a cloud of toxicity around himself, the board and the players
I think Jose is a great coach, and our position in the league demonstrates that we have improved. However, he needs to change the way he uses full backs and indulge our creative players a bit more.
Fundamentally, the requirements of a Mourinho backline mean that full-backs aren’t really allowed to attack in many matches, in a way that has become standard at the top level. This wouldn’t be a problem if he played with proper wide men, but we don’t really do that, either.
The effect of this can be seen in a hugely frustrating pattern of play that is itself seen far too often when we play. It is when Antonio has the ball in a promising position in the opposition half.
The nature of the modern game means that happens quite a lot, but so does the following. Because of the way that United are set up, and because of that key lack of drilled attacking co-ordination, there is very little movement in front of Valencia. There certainly isn’t the “red arrows” co-ordination that Arsene Wenger’s best Arsenal sides used to such effect, unless it’s one of those days when United are properly revved up and it all seems to come off instinctively.
When that isn’t the case, and that now feels like it’s most games, Valencia is forced to go outside. He will then try drill a cross that is blocked, and the move will usually break down.
That isn’t such a problem if you have proper creators in the middle, who can create something out of nothing, and We do have that in pogba, potentially now Fred.The issue is that Mourinho doesn’t have the patience to indulge him. With players like that, there has to be a certain risk in the sense of allowing them to keep trying things, but it doesn’t seem like it’s in the José’s nature to allow that. Either they do it relentlessly, or they’re hooked, and abruptly dropped. With us, this has happened with Juan Mata, this has happened with Martial this has happened with Henrikh Mkhitaryan… and it’s now happening with Pogba.
The Pogba situation is all the more interesting, and all the more fraught, because of what it represents. Mourinho used to primarily see central midfielders as strong players to set up a beachhead, mainly there for tackles and aerial dominance. “He would play three Nemanja Matics if he could,” I remember Someone saying.
I do , however, feel that Pogba was signed because Mourinho was actually specifically conscious of this, and wanted to break out of it. He wanted to evolve his midfield idea… but then can’t truly let himself go and reverts to type. This is one reason why the Pogba situation has grown. It is the chaos of certain games against Mourinho’s sense of control.
I keep up hope that the McKenna hire was also a sign of a continued willingness by Jose to change.
Fundamentally, the requirements of a Mourinho backline mean that full-backs aren’t really allowed to attack in many matches, in a way that has become standard at the top level. This wouldn’t be a problem if he played with proper wide men, but we don’t really do that, either.
The effect of this can be seen in a hugely frustrating pattern of play that is itself seen far too often when we play. It is when Antonio has the ball in a promising position in the opposition half.
The nature of the modern game means that happens quite a lot, but so does the following. Because of the way that United are set up, and because of that key lack of drilled attacking co-ordination, there is very little movement in front of Valencia. There certainly isn’t the “red arrows” co-ordination that Arsene Wenger’s best Arsenal sides used to such effect, unless it’s one of those days when United are properly revved up and it all seems to come off instinctively.
When that isn’t the case, and that now feels like it’s most games, Valencia is forced to go outside. He will then try drill a cross that is blocked, and the move will usually break down.
That isn’t such a problem if you have proper creators in the middle, who can create something out of nothing, and We do have that in pogba, potentially now Fred.The issue is that Mourinho doesn’t have the patience to indulge him. With players like that, there has to be a certain risk in the sense of allowing them to keep trying things, but it doesn’t seem like it’s in the José’s nature to allow that. Either they do it relentlessly, or they’re hooked, and abruptly dropped. With us, this has happened with Juan Mata, this has happened with Martial this has happened with Henrikh Mkhitaryan… and it’s now happening with Pogba.
The Pogba situation is all the more interesting, and all the more fraught, because of what it represents. Mourinho used to primarily see central midfielders as strong players to set up a beachhead, mainly there for tackles and aerial dominance. “He would play three Nemanja Matics if he could,” I remember Someone saying.
I do , however, feel that Pogba was signed because Mourinho was actually specifically conscious of this, and wanted to break out of it. He wanted to evolve his midfield idea… but then can’t truly let himself go and reverts to type. This is one reason why the Pogba situation has grown. It is the chaos of certain games against Mourinho’s sense of control.
I keep up hope that the McKenna hire was also a sign of a continued willingness by Jose to change.
Honestly i believe only a complete moron would have a problem with manager celebrating a goal and/or win. It's perfectly normal for anybody. And Jose himself has done a dozen time. And Fergie done it regularly as well.
Nonsense could have easily got anyone if we overpaid and proposed them wages we did to Sanchez bearing inflation in mind.
With or without CL Pogba does not really cost almost like 2 de bryunes, and Lukaku does not cost 90m either. I have no problem that we bought them, we needed these players and had money. Business overpay for assets all the time actually.
But the fact remains, the level of financial support for Moyes and Jose was very different. It would not probably help Moyes to do much better, but that is the fact.
My feelings exactly. Even the examples you chose is the same i would have mentioned.
Also people do need to differentiate between club and manager. With Fergie it was impossible for obvious reasons, he almost was the club itself in many ways. But with Jose it is different, he came here to do a job, and he will leave and never look back.
Only Inter fans. Because after him club went from CL winner to a literal zero, they are not even in CL for god knows how long. As for most of Chelsea's, they are glad Jose is gone and hope to never see him as a manager again. Does not mean they are ungrateful for trophies he brought, but prefer him elsewhere.
Name just one. For example from all this Conte scandal. What was "spun negatively"? Jose is supposedly a person who speaks english "professionally", he has worked as a translator, Van Gall or Klopp may know english well enough, but they can be excused for some ambiguity and poor choices of words. With Jose it's always deliberately and calculated insults.
Hate is a strong word, but he surely has done many things for fans to feel aggrieved or annoyed.
You have no wide men at the club. The two clear wingers you have on your books are old and can only be relied upon as fullbacks. Your squad balance has been shocking for years, if we are being honest.
There is a thing called respect in sport (life) and you just don't act like Conte on that third goal at that time in the game totally OTT and inflammatory. Jose comments were not right either by the way but im talking about Conte.
Bull fecking shit. And even if we pretend that what you're saying is true, why the hell would the champions of PL overpay for players? We overpaid for Sanchez because we didn't have to buy him, because we got to offload Mikhi and because we still had a realistic chance for the title that Sanchez could have helped. There's not a single point you can make for why we needed to overpay for players like Thiago and Fabregas.
Actually, yes he does. First off, when we brought Pogba he was widely regarded as one of the top midfielders in the world and certainly the best young midfielder in the world. People were calling him the new Zidane. Bruyne came from a relatively good season with Wolfsburg, but nothing really spectacular. He also had his stints with Chelsea which were considered a failure. And City definitely overpaid for him. As for Lukaku, it's true he doesn't cost 90m, but by the time we brought Lukaku the market prices were already overly inflated
We do not know what level of financial support Moyes had. All we can judge is his signings, and he overpaid for an absolutely shit player and a good player that we did not really need. That's all. He also came from a season where United were champions comfortably. Mourinho came from a season where United finished outside the CL places and most of LVG's signings proven to be inadequate. You have to take also that into account.
But it is not possible to play negative football and manage to finish with the most points since SAF along with the most goals scored SAF. Negative in some games yes but over an entire season, no way is that possible.
People are really exaggerating the ‘terrible football’ on display.
We've also played "ugly" games under SAF. Almost all the 1-0 wins that won us the league titles contained either us defending the lead in the last 15 mins or passing it sideways to waste time. He used to say 1-0 wins are crucial and that it is very important to keep on winning even when We don't play well.
Don't get me wrong though, under Sir Alex our play style was much more enjoyable. But true, there's no way We played all the games negatively last season. I could take 10-25% of ugly or "negative" games over the course of the season if it means We'll win the league or go very far.
We outbid Real for Bale (I believe we submitted a £100m bid) but that was his dream move. The idea Moyes didn't get backed in the market is absolute nonsense being peddled. We broke the club record for him in January for Mata when he'd already proven to be out of his depth several times.
Moyes was backed in the market but he had his holiday rather than getting to work and then dithered on setting targets for Woodward because he needed time to do whatever bullshit meticulous research an idiot like him needs to do. Feck Moyes and the idea he didn't get backed to the fullest.
Can you name another couple of games under Moyes where our crossing stats even resembled that game?That's negative. Mindless crossing is stupid and negative and of course, for that boring tactic to be effective you need someone big or tall to get at the end of crosses which was pretty much what people moaned about when We signed Lukaku or kept Fellaini. There's a reason why Moyes signed Fellaini.
Under Moyes We had the worst tactic which was to cross the ball into the box and hoping someone to get on the end of it to score. That's all, no variations, you'd think it was an amateur football team playing. At some point, teams even let us to control the wings while They just sit there in the middle near the box, anticipating for the mindless crosses. If Mourinho's football is shit and negative, Moyes's football is disastrous, pointless and ultra negative. Oh and Moyes also won feck all, not to mention the constant "We hope to... We aspire to...." in the media. Out of LvG, Jose and Moyes, I'd argue Moyes was the worst. He was out of his depth.
Obligatory reminder :
Is outrageous that we didn't win that game anyway.
It's easy to see why we didn't win when you take your eyes off the stats and watch the match. Almost every one of those 81 crosses were fecking useless. Nothing more than aimless hit and hopes that professional defenders had no problem dealing with.
Yeah, we call them delusionals. You don't think this is something every United fan wants?
Unfortunately, it's not something you can simply click your fingers and expect to happen. There needs to an investment of time, money and faith for us to get back on top. We fell a long way when Fergie retired, and so the climb back up will be long, too. The short-termism demonstrated by such large portion of posters on here is sad to see.
Under Mou our squad has improved significantly, our results are better and we have got back to winning trophies. Until this progression stagnates Jose deserve our support.
This idea that jose hasn't been offered money to spend is the most bizzare thing ever.
bought pogba for a world record fee ( hasn't worked out to expected levels), mkhitariyan ( flop ), zlatan (done ok), matic ( good but not great), lindelof ( work in progress), sanchez ( can judge him only with the coming season), bailly (ivorian phil jones), lukaku ( good ) .
How can a fecking attack with lukaku, rashford, martial,sanchez,mata,pogba score just 60 odd goals is beyond me.
SAF had a total net spend of only 860-odd million pounds over a 26 year career with us. Jose has already spent a third of that in just 2 years. Even if you say inflation, you cannot say that jose has spent all the money wisely. I am pretty sure that if SAF had been given this kind of money to spend, he would have won more.
People criticise scholes and gnev for being harsh about the club's performances, but they only do so because they love the club just as we do and want it to return to former glories. When you have won double digit league titles as they have, of course they are going to judge the general play and performance to a much higher level than what we as fans do.
Managers like poch are making their teams play far more entertaining football than us, and doing so without spending as much money as we do. Yeah, he has not won anything but, no manager has won a league title for spurs since the 60's. He has atleast made them a contender for the past 4 years. That imo is a huge progress for a club like spurs. And us? we have employed washed up managers who have destroyed the club. SAF had not finished below 3rd for 20 years. Ole used to say that coming second was a failure. I give you 6th, 7th, 5th, 4th( man we used to make fun of arsenal for the fourth place trophy). Those hacks at ESPN were saying that zidane should not consider united because we are not in a stable situation. United. We used to be the dream club. What have we become?
Ultimately, this season is going to be a make or break season. If we don't win the league this season or atleast put up a serious challenge, I am sorry but mou has to go. Sir Matt Busby used to say that the club should entertain fans who come to watch them over the weekend. I suggest woodward to read this quote to all potential future managers and demand them to play attractive and winning football. I am done with all these boring sideways passing, aimless crossing, playing without the ball shite. Our club has always won titles in certain time periods. The 1900's, 1950's and 1960's and 1990's and 2000's. And I am not sure if we will get another Sir Matt or Sir Alex to break this slump.I hope I am wrong but the signs are not looking good.
bought pogba for a world record fee ( hasn't worked out to expected levels), mkhitariyan ( flop ), zlatan (done ok), matic ( good but not great), lindelof ( work in progress), sanchez ( can judge him only with the coming season), bailly (ivorian phil jones), lukaku ( good ) .
How can a fecking attack with lukaku, rashford, martial,sanchez,mata,pogba score just 60 odd goals is beyond me.
SAF had a total net spend of only 860-odd million pounds over a 26 year career with us. Jose has already spent a third of that in just 2 years. Even if you say inflation, you cannot say that jose has spent all the money wisely. I am pretty sure that if SAF had been given this kind of money to spend, he would have won more.
People criticise scholes and gnev for being harsh about the club's performances, but they only do so because they love the club just as we do and want it to return to former glories. When you have won double digit league titles as they have, of course they are going to judge the general play and performance to a much higher level than what we as fans do.
Managers like poch are making their teams play far more entertaining football than us, and doing so without spending as much money as we do. Yeah, he has not won anything but, no manager has won a league title for spurs since the 60's. He has atleast made them a contender for the past 4 years. That imo is a huge progress for a club like spurs. And us? we have employed washed up managers who have destroyed the club. SAF had not finished below 3rd for 20 years. Ole used to say that coming second was a failure. I give you 6th, 7th, 5th, 4th( man we used to make fun of arsenal for the fourth place trophy). Those hacks at ESPN were saying that zidane should not consider united because we are not in a stable situation. United. We used to be the dream club. What have we become?
Ultimately, this season is going to be a make or break season. If we don't win the league this season or atleast put up a serious challenge, I am sorry but mou has to go. Sir Matt Busby used to say that the club should entertain fans who come to watch them over the weekend. I suggest woodward to read this quote to all potential future managers and demand them to play attractive and winning football. I am done with all these boring sideways passing, aimless crossing, playing without the ball shite. Our club has always won titles in certain time periods. The 1900's, 1950's and 1960's and 1990's and 2000's. And I am not sure if we will get another Sir Matt or Sir Alex to break this slump.I hope I am wrong but the signs are not looking good.
I kind of get the feeling this is a big week for Jose.......who will we sign and who will we sell ?
If we sign the players I feel he'd like, and sell the players he'd obviously like to sell....god help us
If we sign the players I feel he'd like, and sell the players he'd obviously like to sell....god help us
Well written & thought out post. Agree with most of the points you have made, & you are right about Spurs, who must top the table for the last few years if you take into account wages/players bought. As you say if Mourinho fails to challenge for the title this year, considering it is his third season & the money spent, then he should go. On top of this we have had to put up with some pretty dire football over the last two season, not withstanding his two predecessors.
Wasn't sure about that additional year. Wonder if the board are regretting that now (if they are in fact holding funds this Summer)?
On the money.
I think he will leave at the end of this season in a "mutual agreement" kind of deal.
As someone that genuinely wanted Jose here, it saddens me that this scenario doesnt bother me one bit. He has improved us in some areas, but they have been some glaring weaknesses too. I would give his tenure a 6/10.
That would have been a terrible idea.
Those fans genuinely hate him. And have hated him for years.
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