Jose: "There are those who want to be here at any cost and those who suffer with a little pain."

Do you agree with Jose criticizing players in public for not being willing/fit to play?


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Maradona10

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Neil Ashton reporting taht senior players are supportingvtge ruthless Mourinho regime and the public criticism of shaw. Thats what mourinho is looking for i think. Senior players will mean Rooney,carrick,degea,zlatan,young. I think he wants to see who he can keep and who he can sell. Players who will not be onside of jose will be sold no matter how talented. Its easy to find talented players not easy to get great managers.
Pep has marginalised Yaya and sold nasri, Klopp did same with Sakho, when we do it, it is negative news and sells papers. Fully behind moyrinho here and looks like the players are too.
 

Keeps It tidy

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Neil Ashton reporting taht senior players are supportingvtge ruthless Mourinho regime and the public criticism of shaw. Thats what mourinho is looking for i think. Senior players will mean Rooney,carrick,degea,zlatan,young. I think he wants to see who he can keep and who he can sell. Players who will not be onside of jose will be sold no matter how talented. Its easy to find talented players not easy to get great managers.
Pep has marginalised Yaya and sold nasri, Klopp did same with Sakho, when we do it, it is negative news and sells papers. Fully behind moyrinho here and looks like the players are too.
Do not agree with that one bit.
 

The Man Himself

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Only 4 votes for 3rd option? I thought all of the Barca-Bayern-Liverpool supporting clowns on this forum who desperately jump into any Mourinho thread will be selecting that option.
 

CS@SG

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Rio and Keane only hit 50 appearances twice. Terry 5 times. And surprisingly Evra only once. Lampard might be a genetic freak since he hit it 8 times including having one where he had over 60.

Edit three times for Keane
Lampard actually held a record of most continuous appearance in PL, not sure broken now or not.
 

CS@SG

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The hilarious thing is that this is the exact group the majority of you accuse of being the old guard who continuously leak information to the media (rooney and carrick).
This!

I basically LOL! Anyway, whatever rock their boat.

Question, is there any of the younger generation English players have the leasersgip quality and technicality worth bringing in?
 

Manny

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The hilarious thing is that this is the exact group the majority of you accuse of being the old guard who continuously leak information to the media (rooney and carrick).
If you actually followed the club as closely as other on here you would know Rooney has ran to the press on several occasions in the last year. He had also been getting incredibly favourable reporting.

One line from Jose at the weekend doesn't change that.
 

whatagoodname

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If you actually followed the club as closely as other on here you would know Rooney has ran to the press on several occasions in the last year. He had also been getting incredibly favourable reporting.

One line from Jose at the weekend doesn't change that.
that's my whole point. It's hilarious watching people use rooney as an example of a player with good mentality when he's been destroyed on this forum.
 

Manny

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that's my whole point. It's hilarious watching people use rooney as an example of a player with good mentality when he's been destroyed on this forum.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread use Rooney as THE example to follow in terms of professionalism.

He's was just being used by Jose as someone willing to turn out on the pitch regardless of niggle. We know he's played through a serious injury at least once in his career. Hence the change or culture Jose wants.
 

flappyjay

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It is not that easy for Shaw and his team to force a transfer. He has a contract till 2018. If he makes this ugly, Jose could very well make an example of him by playing him in reserves for the next two years and not selling him to other clubs. If a legendary league and World Cup winning captain can be treated that way, so can a 21 year old rookie.

Obviously, I prefer it never comes to that, and that we end up having a great decade of top football from Shaw at left back, under Mourinho. :D
he was bought for 30 million and is on high wages, we would also lose out
 

do.ob

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It is not that easy for Shaw and his team to force a transfer. He has a contract till 2018. If he makes this ugly, Jose could very well make an example of him by playing him in reserves for the next two years and not selling him to other clubs. If a legendary league and World Cup winning captain can be treated that way, so can a 21 year old rookie.

Obviously, I prefer it never comes to that, and that we end up having a great decade of top football from Shaw at left back, under Mourinho. :D
Except that unlike Schweinsteiger Shaw still has a lot of resale value which would be trashed in the process.
 

JohnnyKills

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Must say Im glad the way this is turning out. One of the biggest young talents in the country looks to be on his way out. Martial - who carried you for long periods last season is now marginalized. Mkhitaryan out of favour while Fellaini and Young are viewed as main men and Jesse Lingard is viewed as a first team player

What makes this even funnier was Mourinho had perfect opportunity after a win to control narrative. Could of praised Pogba or Zlatan who had been struggling but chose to dig out a 20 year old who recently broke his leg and Smalling. Now its all the papers will run with instead of printing how Paul Pogba has quietly had a good season.
Yeah have to say I share all these concerns (or hopes in your case). If we end up jettisoning martial and Rashford that will be mental. Hopefully won't happen though.
 

blue blue

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Only 4 votes for 3rd option? I thought all of the Barca-Bayern-Liverpool supporting clowns on this forum who desperately jump into any Mourinho thread will be selecting that option.
I thought about how to answer this were Jose the manager of my club and thought it should be done internally. Firstly if its done in the media the "outed" players would find it hard to take on board this type of criticism and they may turn against Jose. Secondly its not in the clubs interest should they need to sell because it lowers their value. If the criticism is made privately the player may feel more inclined to take it on board and/or any prospective buyer would be none the wiser.
 

The Man Himself

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I thought about how to answer this were Jose the manager of my club and thought it should be done internally. Firstly if its done in the media the "outed" players would find it hard to take on board this type of criticism and they may turn against Jose. Secondly its not in the clubs interest should they need to sell because it lowers their value. If the criticism is made privately the player may feel more inclined to take it on board and/or any prospective buyer would be none the wiser.
Almost all managers at some time or other negatively comment on players publicly. Yes, it can go negatively too. In the end, Jose knows the effect his comments can have on media and still went with it. If you are Chelsea fan, you should know better than others that rarely it happens that what Jose talks in media is not pre-planned by him in his mind. Overall, there isn't much to see and it is only because it is United and Jose it is getting blown out of proportion.
 

JohnnyKills

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Good article in the Independent yesterday which suggested that Jose is unable to replicate with today's young players the sort of bond he had with his squads of 10 years ago.

Might well be something in that. At Porto, Chelsea (first time) and Inter he had very experienced squads - a lot of players who played under him back then will be well into their 40s now and could easily be the dads of the young players he's working with currently.

United is a young squad and you wonder whether he simply can't get through to them, hence his going to the press and his recent comment that senior players will be his go-go men.

Hopefully his approach works but it seems very few managers at other clubs adopt that strategy in this day and age. Apart from Simeone its hard to think of another rottweiler manager anywhere at the elite level of the support. Most of them prefer the arm-round-the-shoulder approach.
 

Skills

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Except that unlike Schweinsteiger Shaw still has a lot of resale value which would be trashed in the process.
Wouldn't that be brilliant. We trash a young player we bought for 30m (one of the reasons we paid that money was the length of service we expect), for a manager who doesn't and can't last more than 3 years and will almost certainly fail in even getting us top 4 after having spent 150m on his players just this summer. Brilliant strategy.
 

Skills

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Good article in the Independent yesterday which suggested that Jose is unable to replicate with today's young players the sort of bond he had with his squads of 10 years ago.

Might well be something in that. At Porto, Chelsea (first time) and Inter he had very experienced squads - a lot of players who played under him back then will be well into their 40s now and could easily be the dads of the young players he's working with currently.

United is a young squad and you wonder whether he simply can't get through to them, hence his going to the press and his recent comment that senior players will be his go-go men.

Hopefully his approach works but it seems very few managers at other clubs adopt that strategy in this day and age. Apart from Simeone its hard to think of another rottweiler manager anywhere at the elite level of the support. Most of them prefer the arm-round-the-shoulder approach.
I can't remember simeone publicly shaming his players. By all means, he inspires a lot of loyalty out of them and they would all do anything for him. His hard man reputation comes from his playing days and his touchline antics (mostly to do with refs). His players love him though.
 
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I can't remember simeone publicly shaming his players. By all means, he inspires a lot of loyalty out of them and they would all do anything for him. His hard man reputation comes from his playing days and his touchline antics (mostly to do with refs). His players love him though.
You've been given multiple examples in this very thread of SAF & Pep publicly shaming their players but are just choosing to ignore it due to your dislike of Mourinho.
 

JPRouve

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I don't think it's improbable that Jose is calling out players publicly because whatever he's done in private has not worked so far and he's had enough.

I remember him praising the players for their attitudes earlier in the season and saying they performed well even though the results were not there. He's tried to be positive but I think he's decided that he'll call out the ones who are letting the him down, and then seeing who are the ones who will stick with him and embrace his methods.

It's shame about Shaw though. Possible attitude problems aside, I think he's got the potential to be one of the best left backs in the world.
I have seen this said several times as if it was relevant, it's not. In fact if the manager fails to be understood by his players privately, he partially failed at his job and using cameras won't change a thing, also in that case if Mourinho is right, there is nothing to do other than not play the players he mentioned talking to the press is useless and only bring dramas no solution.

And there is also the possibility that the players did nothing wrong and were willing to play but Mourinho was upset because he saw/heard them complain about their pains. Remember what Mourinho's minions conveniently said to the press a few days ago.
 

blue blue

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Almost all managers at some time or other negatively comment on players publicly. Yes, it can go negatively too. In the end, Jose knows the effect his comments can have on media and still went with it. If you are Chelsea fan, you should know better than others that rarely it happens that what Jose talks in media is not pre-planned by him in his mind. Overall, there isn't much to see and it is only because it is United and Jose it is getting blown out of proportion.
As a Chelsea fan I used to think that all Jose's comments were pre-planned but the 7 minute outburst put paid to that. The media and many others believe Jose tries to create a "siege mentality" but I'm not convinced it works. Personally I thought his greatest asset was his ability to motivate players and create a wining mentality. He lost that last year and his players stopped playing for him. I'm not saying his personality created resentment among the players but he couldn't adapt his style of management when things went wrong. Maybe he can change things at Utd but he will have to learn from his mistakes. Firstly he needs to get a smile back on his face and remember how to motivate. He always had a serious side to his character but these days he just looks unhappy all the time.
If I had 5 minutes with him I would ask him if he knew what went wrong at Chelsea last season, does he think he has learned any lessons from that and how is he utilising that experience at Utd.
 
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Janson

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...and boom team successfully divided. Now Shaw and Smalling come into the dressing room, wondering which superstar teammates thinks they are pussies. Mkhitaryan sides with them cause he does not like Mourinho anyway. Some players wonders whether they are next to be called out in public...et voila you have a locker room mess. And all that cause Mourinho could not keep his mouth shut after a victory.

What he should have said:

Shaw is a young player, who suffered a horrible injury, so we are careful with him. We are a TEAM of 25 players, and I expect United players (starters or reserves) to be ready and do a job against Swansea. We did the job, we won, onto the next game. Smalling? Yes small injury. Didn´t want to risk anything.

Mkhitaryan? He´s getting used to a new country, new language, it´s tough he hasn´t fully settled yet, but we know he´s a fantastic player, that´s why I, personally, signed him. I don´t doubt his quality for one second and he´ll come through for us.


Of course it would help to put him on the bench even if you don´t intend to use him initially. But at 3-0 at halftime against Swansea would have been the perfect opportunity rather than at 0-2 in istanbul with everybody playing like crap.

That´s how a good man manager would have publically handled this. What goes on behind closed doors is a different matter.

If they (Smalling/Shaw) don´t come good you sell them, but not as damaged goods. Who does it help to tell the other teams that Shaw is either a lazy player or mentally broken by his horrific injury? Mourinho hurt the value of the player for the club and not to underestimate the player himself, who´ll now likely have to take a pay-cut to leave. Neither of these things make Shaw want to go through the fire for Mourinho.
I don't think Mourinho couldn't have come up with something like that, he's not dumb. Every other attempt to handle things in private could have failed and with all the questions coming from everywhere, he had to tell it like it is. Or like he thinks it is.
 

JPRouve

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I don't think Mourinho couldn't have come up with something like that, he's not dumb. Every other attempt to handle things in private could have failed and with all the questions coming from everywhere, he had to tell it like it is. Or like he thinks it is.
The only problem with that is that it fixes nothing and according to Mourinho both players already tried to play through pain and injuries, like Valencia and Rooney did.
 

Manny

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I have seen this said several times as if it was relevant, it's not. In fact if the manager fails to be understood by his players privately, he partially failed at his job and using cameras won't change a thing, also in that case if Mourinho is right, there is nothing to do other than not play the players he mentioned talking to the press is useless and only bring dramas no solution.
Isn't it better he outs them publicly and gives them a chance to fight for the team rather than writing them off completely?
 

The Man Himself

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As a Chelsea fan I used to think that all Jose's comments were pre-planned but the 7 minute outburst put paid to that. The media and many others believe Jose tries to create a "siege mentality" but I'm not convinced it works. Personally I thought his greatest asset was his ability to motivate players and create a wining mentality. He lost that last year and his players stopped playing for him. I'm not saying his personality created resentment among the players but he couldn't adapt his style of management when things went wrong. Maybe he can change things at Utd but he will have to learn from his mistakes. Firstly he needs to get a smile back on his face and remember how to motivate. He always had a serious side to his character but these days he just looks unhappy all the time.
If I had 5 minutes with him I would ask him if he knew what went wrong at Chelsea last season, does he think he has learned any lessons from that and how is he utilising that experience at Utd.
Yes, Siege mentality can't always work, particularly with the current gen of players. It is something I want United to develop though, at least temporarily. We need that. That mentality can't be developed if players act soft. I don't blame Shaw or Smalling in this case and think they had reason to be tentative about playing if they are carrying knocks but overall in last 3 years the United squad has been too timid. If Jose has senior players on his side, others will know that they have to step up. Things look bad between managers and certain players sometime and then magically it becomes all fine. As United fan, I am hoping same is case here. In fact, to me it doesn't seem to have gone that bad in this case. Some player/manager relations come back from worse.

Yes, he needs to start smiling again. Probably combination of things keeping him grumpy.

Was it before Chelsea game where Mourinho said that he won't go in details of what went wrong last season? Maybe we will have to wait for his autobiography after retirement to know his side :)
 

parisite

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The only problem with that is that it fixes nothing and according to Mourinho both players already tried to play through pain and injuries, like Valencia and Rooney did.
And we saw the result of Smalling playing at less than 100% against Chelsea, idem Shaw against Fenerbahce. They were both completely useless and so letting someone else take the spot against such a weak opponent as Swansea was probably for the best. I'm all for the lads giving their all but if it's going to produce the sort of end result that those two did recently then we have a squad and should use it.
 

ChrisNelson

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Isn't it better he outs them publicly and gives them a chance to fight for the team rather than writing them off completely?
Or even better he could trust his players when they tell him something?! Put yourself in Shaw/ Smalling shoes. You've gone to your employer/ manager and said you don't feel fit enough to go to work today. What response do you expect? I would imagine something along the lines of "ok fair enough, see you tomorrow if you're well enough".
I would assume you wouldn't expect them to go off and spout to everyone that people should be making themselves available for work regardless of whether they feel up to it.
It's the issue of trust that worries me here, he's not even 6 months in to the job and this is not good management.
 

Garethw

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The fact of the matter is he hasn't outed anybody publicly. He never mentioned anyone by name. For all we know it may not have even been Shaw/Smalling that he was referring too. It's only the media that have put two and two together.
 

JPRouve

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Isn't it better he outs them publicly and gives them a chance to fight for the team rather than writing them off completely?
Or he could just keep it between them and give them a chance to fight or do whatever he wants without creating drama.

The fact of the matter is he hasn't outed anybody publicly. He never mentioned anyone by name. For all we know it may not have even been Shaw/Smalling that he was referring too. It's only the media that have put two and two together.
And tha's an other problem, he created drama and speculation after a win and before an international break. And if he is true to himself, he will complain about the press coverage.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Good article in the Independent yesterday which suggested that Jose is unable to replicate with today's young players the sort of bond he had with his squads of 10 years ago.

Might well be something in that. At Porto, Chelsea (first time) and Inter he had very experienced squads - a lot of players who played under him back then will be well into their 40s now and could easily be the dads of the young players he's working with currently.

United is a young squad and you wonder whether he simply can't get through to them, hence his going to the press and his recent comment that senior players will be his go-go men.

Hopefully his approach works but it seems very few managers at other clubs adopt that strategy in this day and age. Apart from Simeone its hard to think of another rottweiler manager anywhere at the elite level of the support. Most of them prefer the arm-round-the-shoulder approach.
I think if we had an arm-round-the-shoulder manager there are some in our squad who would still stab them in the back eventually. They are just too pampered. I think some of them would not have survived under SAF at his most vitriolic. Smalling, Jones, etc came into towards the end when he had mellowed a bit.
 

JPRouve

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And there is also the little hypocrisy of a lot fans who are advocating for not overplay Martial and Rashford but are against the idea to no play an injured Shaw who is also a young player.
 

flappyjay

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Isn't it better he outs them publicly and gives them a chance to fight for the team rather than writing them off completely?
He can easily tell them the same face to face, get your act together or go train with the reserves
 

do.ob

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I think if we had an arm-round-the-shoulder manager there are some in our squad who would still stab them in the back eventually. They are just too pampered. I think some of them would not have survived under SAF at his most vitriolic. Smalling, Jones, etc came into towards the end when he had mellowed a bit.
Not necessarily. There are some coaches out there (Guardiola and Klopp come to mind) who if they believe in a player appear very patient, supporting and protective, but at the same time are absolutely ruthless with the ones who don't follow their ideas.
 

flappyjay

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Or even better he could trust his players when they tell him something?! Put yourself in Shaw/ Smalling shoes. You've gone to your employer/ manager and said you don't feel fit enough to go to work today. What response do you expect? I would imagine something along the lines of "ok fair enough, see you tomorrow if you're well enough".
I would assume you wouldn't expect them to go off and spout to everyone that people should be making themselves available for work regardless of whether they feel up to it.
It's the issue of trust that worries me here, he's not even 6 months in to the job and this is not good management.
It has also made a situation where players are gonna lie about their fitness as they won't trust him with the truth after this.
 

flappyjay

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Jose: hey Marcus how is your leg feeling?
Marcus: it's broken but I can limp on boss

He is created a situation where players are gonna be afraid to be honest about their fitness but apparently that's what being a man is, when your are honest you are a wuss according to a majority on this forum.
 

Manny

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Or even better he could trust his players when they tell him something?! Put yourself in Shaw/ Smalling shoes. You've gone to your employer/ manager and said you don't feel fit enough to go to work today. What response do you expect? I would imagine something along the lines of "ok fair enough, see you tomorrow if you're well enough".
I would assume you wouldn't expect them to go off and spout to everyone that people should be making themselves available for work regardless of whether they feel up to it.
It's the issue of trust that worries me here, he's not even 6 months in to the job and this is not good management.
Or he could just keep it between them and give them a chance to fight or do whatever he wants without creating drama.
He can easily tell them the same face to face, get your act together or go train with the reserves
My point was aimed at @JPRouve comment. I'd rather he tried criticising them in public to get improved performances than leave them out of the side, out of the squad and eventually dumped from the club.

He's already tried defending them, praising them in public and presumably been telling them to get their shite together behind the scenes. It hasn't worked so now he's being open with criticism.