He needs to look at how Fellaini made himself useful and dominate games and do that. He’s a more technical player than Fellaini ever was.
11
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 48
- Goals
- 7
- Assists
- 2
- Yellow cards
- 2
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
He can be a good number 10 for us I think. But he'll need to have fisticuffs with Bruno.
And maybe Mount after he gets his cybernetic muscle implants.
And maybe Mount after he gets his cybernetic muscle implants.
Haha, I meant that in jest. Joelinton is an absolute engine which made the transition a lot easier. Zirkzee can work as a 10 but lower in midfield he just doesn't have the legs.
Also hate how we positioned ourselves yesterday. The Top 3 were so weird. Bruno had to be dragged out to cover the right, which doesn't make any sense as it leaves gaping holes in midfield.
I think he played alright/well yesterday. In a team that actually puts chances away, I think he'll look better. He can't really be relied upon to score goals though, and him being there does mean that the pressure on the other attacking players to score more is higher. But, I can see how useful he can be. I just think we're missing a few key players in our squad to really make best use out of him. Ultimately, we need everyone to be scoring goals, and if they're not scoring, they need to be helping to create. I feel like he is in that latter bracket, whereas we desperately need more from the first.
He's actually a pretty classy player isn't he?
He just has no killer instinct or a mind for output.
I love the suggestions in here about him being a midfielder. I can absolutely see it. He would also be a type of midfielder that we're lacking - a strong ball carrier.
He just has no killer instinct or a mind for output.
I love the suggestions in here about him being a midfielder. I can absolutely see it. He would also be a type of midfielder that we're lacking - a strong ball carrier.
I actually think his work rate is solid, he’s just pretty fecking slow.
Just weird right now because he’s firmly in that no man’s land of having some serious qualities but no clear fit positionally
There's a really good, skillful player there. He just feels like he's from a different era where people played the game purely for fun.
His hold up play is brilliant, his eye for a pass is great, he's a deceptively good dribbler, his touch most times is impeccable, but for whatever reason, he just has a lax approach to the game. I don't actually think he's as slow as folks think. He just hardly ever breaks into a sprint.
A good example of his casual approach is where the ball is squared to him just in front of the box in a game we're losing and he's in as much space a any other player receiving the ball would be anyway, but he let's it run just for laughs
His hold up play is brilliant, his eye for a pass is great, he's a deceptively good dribbler, his touch most times is impeccable, but for whatever reason, he just has a lax approach to the game. I don't actually think he's as slow as folks think. He just hardly ever breaks into a sprint.
A good example of his casual approach is where the ball is squared to him just in front of the box in a game we're losing and he's in as much space a any other player receiving the ball would be anyway, but he let's it run just for laughs
I see what you did thereThere's a really good, skillful player there. He just feels like he's from a different era where people played the game purely for fun.
His hold up play is brilliant, his eye for a pass is great, he's a deceptively good dribbler, his touch most times is impeccable, but for whatever reason, he just has a lax approach to the game. I don't actually think he's as slow as folks think. He just hardly ever breaks into a sprint.
A good example of his casual approach is where the ball is squared to him just in front of the box in a game we're losing and he's in as much space a any other player receiving the ball would be anyway, but he let's it run just for laughs
Balance of the squad is bonkers.
He could potentially work as a low scoring link up type CF. But you would need the wide attackers to be firing and a solid CM behind him. But with neither he just looks like a stray piece from a different jigsaw puzzle.
He could potentially work as a low scoring link up type CF. But you would need the wide attackers to be firing and a solid CM behind him. But with neither he just looks like a stray piece from a different jigsaw puzzle.
Impossible to place in a serious team. Great guy, puts some effort, has technique.
Cant be a midfielder, team is always with one man down. He almost never runs, is always late, is caught misplaced all the time.
Cant be a striker, cant shoot, cant move in box, cant even find space.
Might have someone interested in a trade in Italy or Spain in the summer. Goodluck.
Cant be a midfielder, team is always with one man down. He almost never runs, is always late, is caught misplaced all the time.
Cant be a striker, cant shoot, cant move in box, cant even find space.
Might have someone interested in a trade in Italy or Spain in the summer. Goodluck.
Zirkzee is a mid-table player looking average in a mid-table team.
That's it, unfortunately. A few good touches, but he has no desire to score goals, missed an excellent chance yesterday.
Let's not go overboard here. A handful of good touches against Spurs doesn't erase a half-season on ineptitude.
He doesn’t have that instinctive understanding that keeping the ball is important. He’s great (potentially) as an attacking outlet in transition — he can hold the ball up, quickly turn around/beat the defender and make a smart vertical pass. But his instincts are extremely attacking while a midfielders needs to pick an appropriate time when to attack (and when to slow down the tempo and keep the ball).
With what he offers he could be a really, really good player if he could just manage to become a reliable 15-20 goal a season scorer in all competitions.
I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility personally.
I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility personally.
He hasn't been inept in quite a few games. Let's not go overboard here.
Amorim saying he's now thinner and faster.
Good news but what a joke it's taken until February for him to be properly match fit.
Good news but what a joke it's taken until February for him to be properly match fit.
He has been in the majority of his appearances for this club.
7/10 and surely our MotM.
Nah, he really hasn't. He had a couple of horror shows but was otherwise OK to decent.
He’ll never be a good enough number 10 for us.
His lack of mobility lead to our problems yesterday because Bruno had to cover 2 positions . He’s the opposite of everything Ruben wants to do with the team
Accurate description. He clearly has technical ability, it would be good to see how much he can develop on top of that. I just wish we had a couple of prime age quality forwards so that players like him could get up to speed in a better environment without us relying on them.
Fellaini's aggressive mentality played a huge role in his effectiveness. You can't teach that.
I would like to see him play as the second striker, dropping back, collecting the ball and feeding the front man, but that would only work if we had a proper striker up top.
True. When you look at our attacking/number 10 options it's all young players - Zirkzee is 23, Hojlund 22, Garnacho 20, Amad 22, Mainoo 19 (Mount obviously older but unavailable). Ideally they develop with less pressure in a functional team but we're not that.
There's something with Zirkzee.
Great technical ability. He made a few Spurs players look very silly. Definitely could work as a second striker in a functional team and a proper striker.
Great technical ability. He made a few Spurs players look very silly. Definitely could work as a second striker in a functional team and a proper striker.
He reminds me of Berbetov just needs to improve his finishing and he will be a good squad player for us for the next few years.
Probably our best player, alongsde Amad, in a five a side game. But in the PL he’s clueless as to how much/little time he has on the ball. A brilliant dribble, nice nutmeg only to spoil it time and again with no awareness. He lacks any semblance of intensity in his game.
He is improving though. He’s showing real quality with the ball, and he can dribble. His passing is also improving, but his lack of awareness, lack of intensity and lack of any pace is really letting him down in the PL.
He is improving though. He’s showing real quality with the ball, and he can dribble. His passing is also improving, but his lack of awareness, lack of intensity and lack of any pace is really letting him down in the PL.
He’s definitely technically gifted but I just wonder if he will ever adjust to the speed of PL football. Someone like Berbatov didn’t need to acclimatise to PL football, he was ready made. Zirkzee doesn’t look quite as naturally ready for it and just wonder whether we can be patient waiting for him. I’d like to see him using his physicality more too, opposition players should be bouncing off him but he’s a bit tentative in challenges. I like him though, he’s got a chance to become a valuable member of the squad in the coming seasons.
He performed far better than the Newcastle game in that no 10 role. He offered physical strength, hold up play, bit of flair, and attract defenders on him to give other more spaces.
The question is what kind of no 10 combination Amorim is looking for?
The likes of Amad, Garnacho, Bruno, Eriksen and Mount are different profile to Zirkzee.
Does he want wingers who can offer pace like Amad/Garnacho profile plus playmaker like Bruno/Eriksen profile? Or wingers who can offer pace like Amad/Garnacho profile plus false 9 who can hold the ball and bring others into play like Zirkzee profile? Or playmaker plus false 9?
The question is what kind of no 10 combination Amorim is looking for?
The likes of Amad, Garnacho, Bruno, Eriksen and Mount are different profile to Zirkzee.
Does he want wingers who can offer pace like Amad/Garnacho profile plus playmaker like Bruno/Eriksen profile? Or wingers who can offer pace like Amad/Garnacho profile plus false 9 who can hold the ball and bring others into play like Zirkzee profile? Or playmaker plus false 9?
If we get a proper striker, I would sell Rasmus and Keep JZ
With Amad out, he's our only player on an upward performance curve. There's a goal on the way, mark my words. Any week now.
A better player than Hojlund
He needs to have the hunger that Berbatov (despite his style) had - the guy liked scoring goals. Zirkzee seems content with just build-up play.
Why? Zirkzee and Rasmus aren't competing for tbe same spot in this team.
It isn't justifiable to any measure at the moment to do so, but more and more I feel like a 4-4-2 would be best for this squad. Garnacho might lack the (consistent) workrate, but if he adds that to his game, balances it with Amad on the other wing, with Bruno and Mount as other covers on the sides/offensive midfield positions, it looks more and more like it'd be the only way this squad (in full fitness) could be effective.
Doesn't really help that Hojlund seems even less likely of scoring at the moment. Bruno and Garnacho could play up front as well, but it's not ideal. Even another Weghorst type transfer or a 5m but experienced striker would be almost a necessity right now.
Really think there is a good player in Hojlund, too, but all of these players aren't in the right conditions right now to develop in a more healthy and (for Utd) efficient manner.
It baffled me how it worked out so badly at first, but people are people and people usually need time to adjust. Zirkzee looks like the type of player who is either your best player or (often) one of your worst. Kind of like the dichotomy of Bergkamp at Inter and at Arsenal. Different times and (somewhat) different players, but now that more of his skills are starting to show (again) and the way it seems to look useful, but also not at all - at least so far - seems to point at a mismatch with the tactics or his teammates.
Maybe now with so many players out, particularly Mainoo and Amad, it's time to adapt the plan to the actual possibilities? With Licha and Shaw out it already seems a little static to play 3 at the back, let alone if you only play one of Maz and Yoro as the SCBs (side-CBs/ is there an abbreviation for the collective LCB/RCB thing playing besides besides the "CCB" in a 3CB-system?)... Sure, believe in your system, but in this form and shape are players actually learning the necessary new ways of thinking for this approach? We all remember last year's ETH sticking to 4-1-2-3 built around players like Mount and Shaw, the first barely being fit enough to have adapted to Utd after almost two seasons now.
If the new "process" or "project" is preparing the team for 3-4-2-1 Amorimball I kind of get sticking to the plan, especially if he has the okay from the board to follow his own path, but Nistelball kinda already showed that EtH + confidence ball wasn't that bad of an approach, and yeah new manager bounce and too little games for foundational analysis, yadayada, but besides a kind of promising start (stability-wise) of this season under ETH, that was our best period in a long time, and I think it becomes a pretty fair assessment that so far Amorimball is a downgrade over even lack-of-confidence-ETH-ball. Give him time, and the squad fits less to the new playstyle than it looked beforehand, but it's so odd that while building a string foundation for your plan A is usually best, having no plan B whatsoever just confuses me.
Even Conte plays with 2 centerbacks in many games now. And his very precise formation plan had more than one club/squad to back it up. Even just changing it to 3-4-1-2 or 3-5-2 or something would be... something. Perhaps none of Bruno, Mainoo and Eriksen show to be stable enough (currently) to be one of only 2 CMs, but then is it really so horrible to add another CM beside them? Even a Mainoo-Casemiro-Bruno would relieve each other and the wingbacks of more burdens than they can carry. You can write any of them down as a 10 on paper if you want, but it's as if the whole setup cannot show any alteration.
All those (counter?) attacks with only 3 in attack in any situation? Any striker staying back if they set up an attack but a wing back is already going on ahead? Interesting plan, but there's a real difference between faith in oneself and stubbornnes about that one plan you thought up three years ago that worked for 2-and-a-half of them. No answer is suitable for every question and especially in football you can see how nothing lasts. Tiki-taka left, Simeone's 4-4-2/8-1-1/2-4-4 fortress lost its purpose a long time ago, Conte had to come back years later with a new plan and even most of Pep-City formations lasted for only one or two, maybe three, seasons, with its biggest collapse quite recently catching them redhanded for months. What makes Amorim-ball untouchable, even if it's still so briefly after his beating of City in the CL with Sporting? Ajax did bigger things in the CL and Utd just fired the mastermind behind it.
But with the available players now, why not go for a 4-4-2? Two different types of strikers, Dalot/Dorgu on left back, the other on RB or RM. Maz RB or CM, Bruno CM or RM. Garnacho LM. Maguire can follow a simpler plan and most of the team plays in positions they're more accustomed to, with most variety being in the possible workrates. But instead of playing everybody in roles they have to adjust to, it's mostly the players who already are more flexible types like Dorgu, Bruno and Mazraoui. It's not even that different and if the LB shifts up, the RB inward, you basically get back to a 5-2-3 with mostly an out-of-place Garnacho in either a 10 or wingback type role.
Eh why am I talking about nothing.
But now that his confidence is returning, it does look more and more like Zirkzee can be the missing link for the right team, hopefully Amorim won't try his hardest to make this team even more of the wrong one. And otherwise he'll get another chance at another club or under yet another manager~
Doesn't really help that Hojlund seems even less likely of scoring at the moment. Bruno and Garnacho could play up front as well, but it's not ideal. Even another Weghorst type transfer or a 5m but experienced striker would be almost a necessity right now.
Really think there is a good player in Hojlund, too, but all of these players aren't in the right conditions right now to develop in a more healthy and (for Utd) efficient manner.
It baffled me how it worked out so badly at first, but people are people and people usually need time to adjust. Zirkzee looks like the type of player who is either your best player or (often) one of your worst. Kind of like the dichotomy of Bergkamp at Inter and at Arsenal. Different times and (somewhat) different players, but now that more of his skills are starting to show (again) and the way it seems to look useful, but also not at all - at least so far - seems to point at a mismatch with the tactics or his teammates.
Maybe now with so many players out, particularly Mainoo and Amad, it's time to adapt the plan to the actual possibilities? With Licha and Shaw out it already seems a little static to play 3 at the back, let alone if you only play one of Maz and Yoro as the SCBs (side-CBs/ is there an abbreviation for the collective LCB/RCB thing playing besides besides the "CCB" in a 3CB-system?)... Sure, believe in your system, but in this form and shape are players actually learning the necessary new ways of thinking for this approach? We all remember last year's ETH sticking to 4-1-2-3 built around players like Mount and Shaw, the first barely being fit enough to have adapted to Utd after almost two seasons now.
If the new "process" or "project" is preparing the team for 3-4-2-1 Amorimball I kind of get sticking to the plan, especially if he has the okay from the board to follow his own path, but Nistelball kinda already showed that EtH + confidence ball wasn't that bad of an approach, and yeah new manager bounce and too little games for foundational analysis, yadayada, but besides a kind of promising start (stability-wise) of this season under ETH, that was our best period in a long time, and I think it becomes a pretty fair assessment that so far Amorimball is a downgrade over even lack-of-confidence-ETH-ball. Give him time, and the squad fits less to the new playstyle than it looked beforehand, but it's so odd that while building a string foundation for your plan A is usually best, having no plan B whatsoever just confuses me.
Even Conte plays with 2 centerbacks in many games now. And his very precise formation plan had more than one club/squad to back it up. Even just changing it to 3-4-1-2 or 3-5-2 or something would be... something. Perhaps none of Bruno, Mainoo and Eriksen show to be stable enough (currently) to be one of only 2 CMs, but then is it really so horrible to add another CM beside them? Even a Mainoo-Casemiro-Bruno would relieve each other and the wingbacks of more burdens than they can carry. You can write any of them down as a 10 on paper if you want, but it's as if the whole setup cannot show any alteration.
All those (counter?) attacks with only 3 in attack in any situation? Any striker staying back if they set up an attack but a wing back is already going on ahead? Interesting plan, but there's a real difference between faith in oneself and stubbornnes about that one plan you thought up three years ago that worked for 2-and-a-half of them. No answer is suitable for every question and especially in football you can see how nothing lasts. Tiki-taka left, Simeone's 4-4-2/8-1-1/2-4-4 fortress lost its purpose a long time ago, Conte had to come back years later with a new plan and even most of Pep-City formations lasted for only one or two, maybe three, seasons, with its biggest collapse quite recently catching them redhanded for months. What makes Amorim-ball untouchable, even if it's still so briefly after his beating of City in the CL with Sporting? Ajax did bigger things in the CL and Utd just fired the mastermind behind it.
But with the available players now, why not go for a 4-4-2? Two different types of strikers, Dalot/Dorgu on left back, the other on RB or RM. Maz RB or CM, Bruno CM or RM. Garnacho LM. Maguire can follow a simpler plan and most of the team plays in positions they're more accustomed to, with most variety being in the possible workrates. But instead of playing everybody in roles they have to adjust to, it's mostly the players who already are more flexible types like Dorgu, Bruno and Mazraoui. It's not even that different and if the LB shifts up, the RB inward, you basically get back to a 5-2-3 with mostly an out-of-place Garnacho in either a 10 or wingback type role.
Eh why am I talking about nothing.
But now that his confidence is returning, it does look more and more like Zirkzee can be the missing link for the right team, hopefully Amorim won't try his hardest to make this team even more of the wrong one. And otherwise he'll get another chance at another club or under yet another manager~
He's had particularly bad games where everything went wrong but for the most part, even in many of his poor games, it's obvious to see he has good technique, passing, and ability to hold up the ball.
I feel his biggest issue has been a severe lack intensity, which I suspect has been due to a combination of very poor fitness (I agree with Ruben that this is improving) and mindset (he just doesn't seem very decisive in the final third and hasn't shown any innate desire to want to score).
I highly doubt this. He barely lost the ball.
You have any stat to back this up?
What’s wrong with the position he had in this game? Add a proper striker to the team instead of Hojlund and it may work really well
He was match fit, for Italy.
It’s called adapting to a higher level league.
Exactly!
Because Hojlund adds nothing to the team and Zirkzee does. We just needs a proper striker who can actually finish the opportunities provided by the likes of Zirkzee
How many games has he played as a false 9 for us?
Even as a ST he is made to play as a target man than a forward who drops deep.
Amorim played Mainoo as a False 9 instead of Zirkzee.
Even as a ST he is made to play as a target man than a forward who drops deep.
Amorim played Mainoo as a False 9 instead of Zirkzee.
In the end he was 2nd to Garnacho for losing the ball. I misread it
Still, 2nd most balls lost
These are "Dispossessed" and "Unsafe Touches". Dispossessed meaning he had was tackled when he was in control of the ball and unsafe touches meaning he had a first touch and then lost the ball right away. He comes to 6 and Garnacho comes to 8
If we also consider passing accuracy Zirkzee had 80% of 26 passes, and Garnacho had 72.2% of 18 passes so that would widen the gap too.
If he can’t put pressure on the right hand side as one of those 10s then he’s ill fitted for that role. We can’t be relying on centre mids to do that job for him.