Julian Nagelsmann | Sacked and replaced by Tuchel

VP89 said:
So you can accept the premise that you don't need to do as much as traditionally thought to get a chance to manage Manchester United, in which case I don't see the problem of having Poch/Nagalsmann on a shortlist (should the need arise).
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OGS appointment as caretaker and then as permeant manager was a crazy combination of happenstance, that doesn't usually occur when managers change. Solskjaer isn't just any other manager to Manchester United through, because of his unique previous history with the club. The managers you mention don't have this connection or prior knowledge; it's a massive point of difference.

Perhaps Potch could have been appointed straight after Mourinho, but he had contractual issues, and Nagelssman wasn't yet the talk of Europe.

OGS will have at least 12 months, I hope alot more. I hope Nagelssman continues to develop; Im sure he will be a serious candidate to lead us when we next change managers. He still has many years ahead of him for that to happen (SAF became our manager aged 46!)
 
VP89 said:
So you can accept the premise that you don't need to do as much as traditionally thought to get a chance to manage Manchester United, in which case I don't see the problem of having Poch/Nagalsmann on a shortlist (should the need arise).
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It is not that easy to say if I can accpet or not. It is about right fit.

Shortlist? You could put whoever you want on it. I still think that we should support our team and also our coaching staff little bit more before discussing next manager. Something that is not even on table right now.
 
I love how people try to portray their ignorance as fact. One person saying Nagelsmann wasn't the talk of Europe when Mourinho got sacked in late 2018, all the while Madrid had spoken to him in 2018 to replace Zidane and Bayern were also trying to nab him.

But yea, he wasn't 'the talk of Europe' then because you hadn't seen him :lol:
 
sammsky1 said:
OGS appointment as caretaker and then as permeant manager was a crazy combination of happenstance, that doesn't usually occur when managers change. Solskjaer isn't just any other manager to Manchester United through, because of his unique previous history with the club. The managers you mention don't have this connection or prior knowledge; it's a massive point of difference.

Perhaps Potch could have been appointed straight after Mourinho, but he had contractual issues, and Nagelssman wasn't yet the talk of Europe.

OGS will have at least 12 months, I hope alot more. I hope Nagelssman continues to develop; Im sure he will be a serious candidate to lead us when we next change managers. He still has many years ahead of him for that to happen (SAF became our manager aged 46!)
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The bold bit is particularly odd here. Nagelsmann was very much highly touted in Europe even in 2018. Ole was a convenient appointment and nothing more.
90 + 5min said:
It is not that easy to say if I can accpet or not. It is about right fit.

Shortlist? You could put whoever you want on it. I still think that we should support our team and also our coaching staff little bit more before discussing next manager. Something that is not even on table right now.
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Can you name many posters who have said they want to sack Ole this minute and bring in Nagelsmann?
 
I don't think it's contradictory to believe that Ole has done well so far, but also falls short of what's needed to take us back to the very top. He was the right man after Mourinho but also not the right guy going forward if we need to win the PL and the CL.

At any rate, let's not make every thread into a XYZ vs Ole - it's tedious and people become more entrenched into their positions and as a result nothing of value comes out.
 
So Nagelsmann - did he get outfoxed by Tuchel, or was it a case of being completely outclassed by much superior players and that no amount of tactics would have made a difference?
 
VP89 said:
God knows what we will do if Ole doesn't work out. I reckon if this appointment failed, Woodward will succumb to bringing in a DoF and let him sort it out.
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Don't see it happening. Woodward strikes me as the type that's enjoyed creating a persona about himself, a football world celebrity if you will. Perhaps I'm wrong and he'll eventually delegate but I think it will take a strong person, perhaps a former player/club legend to push it to fruition.
 
Suedesi said:
I don't think it's contradictory to believe that Ole has done well so far, but also falls short of what's needed to take us back to the very top. He was the right man after Mourinho but also not the right guy going forward if we need to win the PL and the CL.

At any rate, let's not make every thread into a XYZ vs Ole - it's tedious and people become more entrenched into their positions and as a result nothing of value comes out.
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The prime contributors of making this an XYZ v Ole thread are paranoid posters who believe there is some sort of agenda against Ole. This was predominantly a talking point of how well Nagelsmann has done in his time.
 
Suedesi said:
So Nagelsmann - did he get outfoxed by Tuchel, or was it a case of being completely outclassed by much superior players and that no amount of tactics would have made a difference?
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Tuchel is close to as good as he is tactically with vastly superior players. It was not a genuine contest especially due to the loss of the cutting edge a Werner provided. Such a tie told/teaches you nothing about Nagelsmann as a manager.
 
90 + 5min said:
You just have to go to "Would you keep or sack Solskjaer-thread" to see.
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That thread is dedicated to discussing the worth of keeping Ole, so yes I'd expect to see alternative managers debated.

This thread mainly standalone to monitor how Julian Nagesmann has done. And it's been swarmed by paranoid fans getting defensive about Ole for some bizarre reason.
 
He will become the next Liverpool manager.

We as a club don't think will ever be in interested in an young, upcoming, revolutionary manager until Glazers and Woodward are here.
 
VP89 said:
The prime contributors of making this an XYZ v Ole thread are paranoid posters who believe there is some sort of agenda against Ole. This was predominantly a talking point of how well Nagelsmann has done in his time.
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Agreed
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Tuchel is close to as good as he is tactically with vastly superior players. It was not a genuine contest especially due to the loss of the cutting edge a Werner provided. Such a tie told/teaches you nothing about Nagelsmann as a manager.
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True - when two teams use similar tactics/systems, the one with superior personnel will most often than not win.

Could Nagelsmann have adopted a more pragmatic / defensive approach though? Could they have had a better shot if they went catenaccio?
 
Suedesi said:
So Nagelsmann - did he get outfoxed by Tuchel, or was it a case of being completely outclassed by much superior players and that no amount of tactics would have made a difference?
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I mean..let's be realistic here surely? PSG's players are much better.
 
Suedesi said:
True - when two teams use similar tactics/systems, the one with superior personnel will most often than not win.

Could Nagelsmann have adopted a more pragmatic / defensive approach though? Could they have had a better shot if they went catenaccio?
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They could always try, but it's not a great idea: 'I know you're better, so we're just going to dig in, hope you never break through our trenches (which is unlikely, as PSG are particularly strong in attack), and hope that we somehow nick a goal, despite not having the right kind of striker for the approach.' Doesn't sound like it really improves the odds all that much. Plus it's not a tactic Leipzig ever use, and it would be hard to properly get that into the team on such short notice.
 
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Skeezix said:
Heavy Metal Football eh? Which I really like.. both the footballing and the musical style.

Gladbach under Marco Rose will be a team I will be looking out on when I have time to watch Bundesliga Matches in the coming season.
Cheers for the explanation on the styles of these German coaches. They are coming to the fore lately.

Would I be wrong if I said Klopp or Mainz had a huge influence on these coaches? As all these upcoming German coaches seems to have an affiliation or history with either Klopp or Mainz.
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Klopp definitely had a huge influence on Rose and even had him playing under him at Mainz. Klopp also speaks very highly of Rose. It wouldn't surprise me if the apprentice ends up unsurping the master in the EPL someday.
 
sammsky1 said:
Take our squad right now (plus Sancho, top 10 youth, minus deadwood), how suitable would it be for Nagelsmann or Rose to implement their philosophy to a standard good enough to challenge Liverpool? Would it be yet another massive reconstruction vs OGS squad? What are the players they'd get rid off and who would they try to get in? Can you imagine what the 1st XI would be?

Also asking @VP89 as the OP and resident fanboy
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To implement the style in question you need technically strong players but also players who have high energy/mobility, especially in defensive transition IMO.

Matic would be first to go followed by AWB IMO. Both players would be a hinderance to either coach for differing reasons. Matic would be a liability because the high tempo, high risk strategy requires dynamic DMs who are mobile and tenacious and Matic is polar opposite to that and would be lost in defensive transition if isolated.

Wan Bissaka isn't good enough in the build up phase and would be a weakness as one of the wide receivers IMO. There's a reason why the opposition coaches have allowed Wan Bissaka space in games which is a ploy for the ball to reach him so they can spring a pressing trap. I can see Ethan Laird given an opportunity to cement his place in the team at RB.

I think our forwards have the right attributes as far as triggering the press goes and with the addition of a dynamic DM we would enforce the press better higher up the pitch to support the forwards which currently can't be done against quality opposition with a slow and immobile DM who Ole doesn't seem to rate either if his exclusion from the first 11 against Sevilla is anything to go by.

And last but not least both Rose and Nagelmann would want their CBs to play high up the pitch to close off the space that's been vacated by the midfielders to support the forwards which would enforce the press. What's important to remember here is that once the forwards trigger the press high up the pitch, the midfielders, fullbacks and CBs have to move in tandem to make it effective or things will break down and the forwards will end up chasing shadows. Assuming everyone is fit, it wouldn't surprise me if either coach deployed Axel Tuanzebe or Eric Bailly next to Maguire to enforce the high press more effectively.

Laird at RB

New DM who has high energy, dynamism and the ability to dominate defensive zones and enforce the press.

Axel or Bailley next to Maguire to help implement the forward push after the press gets triggered.
 
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Adnan said:
To implement the style in question you need technically strong players but also players who have high energy/mobility, especially in defensive transition IMO.

Matic would be first to go followed by AWB IMO. Both players would be a hinderance to either coach for differing reasons. Matic would be a liability because the high tempo, high risk strategy requires dynamic DMs who are mobile and tenacious and Matic is polar opposite to that and would be lost in defensive transition if isolated.

Wan Bissaka isn't good enough in the build up phase and would be a weakness as one of the wide receivers IMO. There's a reason why the opposition coaches have allowed Wan Bissaka space in games which is a ploy for the ball to reach him so they can spring a pressing trap. I can see Ethan Laird given an opportunity to cement his place in the team at RB.

I think our forwards have the right attributes as far as triggering the press goes and with the addition of a dynamic DM we would enforce the press better higher up the pitch to support the forwards which currently can't be done against quality opposition with a slow and immobile DM who Ole doesn't seem to rate either if his exclusion from the first 11 against Sevilla is anything to go by.

And last but not least both Rose and Nagelmann would want their CBs to play high up the pitch to close off the space that's been vacated by the midfielders to support the forwards which would enforce the press. What's important to remember here is that once the forwards trigger the press high up the pitch, the midfielders, fullbacks and CBs have to move in tandem to make it effective or things will break down and the forwards will end up chasing shadows. Assuming everyone is fit, it wouldn't surprise me if either coach deployed Axel Tuanzebe or Eric Bailly next to Maguire to enforce the high press more effectively.

Laird at RB

New DM who is high energy and dynamic and has the ability dominate defensive zones and enforce the press.

Axel or Bailley next to Maguire to help implement the forward push after the press gets triggered.
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Thanks for explaining. Am learning a lot from you. Also @VP89

Was wondering why Matic was dropped vs Seville.

So one could argue ole is trying to build similar?
 
sammsky1 said:
Thanks for explaining. So one could argue ole is trying to build similar?
Am learning a lot from you. Also @VP89
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Ole is trying to replicate the same and I've even touched upon his tactics at Molde in other threads where he played a very agressive high press with success. So it would be sensible for us United fans to be patient and wait and see how things develop.
 
People are so defensive about Ole. Of course we should keep an eye on the best managerial talents in football and consider them before they win loads of trophies. Ole has a long way to go to prove he's the right man for this club. The 3rd finish was fine, and he should get another year but a top club shouldn't be sitting on its laurels wondering what to do when it goes awry.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
People are so defensive about Ole. Of course we should keep an eye on the best managerial talents in football and consider them before they win loads of trophies. Ole has a long way to go to prove he's the right man for this club. The 3rd finish was fine, and he should get another year but a top club shouldn't be sitting on its laurels wondering what to do when it goes awry.
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Exactly, I'm among the Ole at the Wheel guys, (also against Pochettino at United). But that doesn't mean we should not close our wider vision for upcoming managerial talents.
The probability of Ole (in fact any manager) turning into the next SAF figure is so unlikely.
 
Mercurial said:
isn't the domestic treble pretty much automatic for PSG?
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Yes, that's the point. Don't just judge the managers by their CV. They can't win with poor teams.

For example so many moaned about Sarri saying he isn't a winner as he didn't win anything, completely ignoring what teams he managed and how much he improved Napoli. Last 2 seasons he managed 2 good teams which had potential to win and he won Europa league and Serie A. Was his season with Juventus more impressive than the one he had with Napoli? No but Juventus are strong enough to win Serie A.

That was the point I made or tried to make, managers like Nagelsmann shouldn't be judged on trophies. They don't have strong team or even second best team to win league/cups in Germany, they dont have good enough team to win CL.
 
roonster09 said:
Yes, that's the point. Don't just judge the managers by their CV. They can't win with poor teams.

For example so many moaned about Sarri saying he isn't a winner as he didn't win anything, completely ignoring what teams he managed and how much he improved Napoli. Last 2 seasons he managed 2 good teams which had potential to win and he won Europa league and Serie A. Was his season with Juventus more impressive than the one he had with Napoli? No but Juventus are strong enough to win Serie A.

That was the point I made or tried to make, managers like Nagelsmann shouldn't be judged on trophies. They don't have strong team or even second best team to win league/cups in Germany, they dont have good enough team to win CL.
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This is true. His big break will come, I'm sure of that, he got bigger eyes on him now. Just like Sarri got his chances, and they went up in smokes or got chewed down at Juventus due to tighter demands. Winning with Porto CL or Leicester EPL are big anomalies ofcourse. His team and his ideas atm are heavily backed and often RBL and their hierarchy refuse to sell key assets due to being financially set so they are a well run emerging club and a good proving grounds for a smart manager like him in this stage of his career. True they likely won't win much but they punch well above their weight class and might on an odd day win something domestic in current state. In Nagelsmann the club probably see someone matching their will to grow and take the next steps up with the club and grant him freedoms he won't have automatically at a bigger club. Losing or failing is the great engine to grow and learn in my humblest opinion, and that's more "allowed" at his club so In that regards isn't he at the right place at the moment? For a year or three more I feel he might be, at least in order to fine tune his skills and 'outgrow' his suit before a move! (pun's intendend)
 
Adnan said:
To implement the style in question you need technically strong players but also players who have high energy/mobility, especially in defensive transition IMO.

Matic would be first to go followed by AWB IMO. Both players would be a hinderance to either coach for differing reasons. Matic would be a liability because the high tempo, high risk strategy requires dynamic DMs who are mobile and tenacious and Matic is polar opposite to that and would be lost in defensive transition if isolated.

Wan Bissaka isn't good enough in the build up phase and would be a weakness as one of the wide receivers IMO. There's a reason why the opposition coaches have allowed Wan Bissaka space in games which is a ploy for the ball to reach him so they can spring a pressing trap. I can see Ethan Laird given an opportunity to cement his place in the team at RB.

I think our forwards have the right attributes as far as triggering the press goes and with the addition of a dynamic DM we would enforce the press better higher up the pitch to support the forwards which currently can't be done against quality opposition with a slow and immobile DM who Ole doesn't seem to rate either if his exclusion from the first 11 against Sevilla is anything to go by.

And last but not least both Rose and Nagelmann would want their CBs to play high up the pitch to close off the space that's been vacated by the midfielders to support the forwards which would enforce the press. What's important to remember here is that once the forwards trigger the press high up the pitch, the midfielders, fullbacks and CBs have to move in tandem to make it effective or things will break down and the forwards will end up chasing shadows. Assuming everyone is fit, it wouldn't surprise me if either coach deployed Axel Tuanzebe or Eric Bailly next to Maguire to enforce the high press more effectively.

Laird at RB

New DM who has high energy, dynamism and the ability to dominate defensive zones and enforce the press.

Axel or Bailley next to Maguire to help implement the forward push after the press gets triggered.
Click to expand...

With no English bias. Do you believe that Maguire would actually be the number 1 and not Lindelof? Considering the later is better on the ball and actually is a better reader or the game?
 
Adnan said:
Ole is trying to replicate the same and I've even touched upon his tactics at Molde in other threads where he played a very agressive high press with success. So it would be sensible for us United fans to be patient and wait and see how things develop.
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I don’t want to make this an Ole thing. But If he was replicating the same why did he buy AWB and Maguire. Just a thought as they don’t actually progress his tactics that he is trying to replicate? Do you reckon he had a change of heart from last summer to now?
 
Suedesi said:
True - when two teams use similar tactics/systems, the one with superior personnel will most often than not win.

Could Nagelsmann have adopted a more pragmatic / defensive approach though? Could they have had a better shot if they went catenaccio?
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I doubt it. PSG were fired up, in form and managed by a tactical coach. Yet have the tools to unlock a low block narrow defemce. At most it would have narrowed the winning gap. But I honestly still think he'd have lost.
 
Mainoldo said:
I don’t want to make this an Ole thing. But If he was replicating the same why did he buy AWB and Maguire. Just a thought as they don’t actually progress his tactics that he is trying to replicate? Do you reckon he had a change of heart from last summer to now?
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I was going to post the same. Just using an aggressive pressing doesn't make you a top coach, it's a craft rather than an art and lost of coaches have learned it by now: Hasenhüttl for example can build a great pressing team, yet Leipzig didn't hesitate to replace him. What sets Nagelsmann apart from a lot of other coaches is how complete his tactical profile is. He's using Leipzig's typical strengths in counter attacking and pressing, but he also adds his ideas of positional football. Between Rangnick's season (who did quite well with them) and Nagelsmann their average possession went up by 5 percentage points.
I don't think Ole is showing the same promise in United's possession game, which is part of the reason why the team got quite a lot of impressive results against strong(er) teams who offered them space to counter attack, but also struggled against weak teams who didn't.
 
do.ob said:
I was going to post the same. Just using an aggressive pressing doesn't make you a top coach, it's a craft rather than an art and lost of coaches have learned it by now: Hasenhüttl for example can build a great pressing team, yet Leipzig didn't hesitate to replace him. What sets Nagelsmann apart from a lot of other coaches is how complete his tactical profile is. He's using Leipzig's typical strengths in counter attacking and pressing, but he also adds his ideas of positional football. Between Rangnick's season (who did quite well with them) and Nagelsmann their average possession went up by 5 percentage points.
I don't think Ole is showing the same promise in United's possession game, which is part of the reason why the team got quite a lot of impressive results against strong(er) teams who offered them space to counter attack, but also struggled against weak teams who didn't.
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Yeah, Ole's inability to instill quality possession football is one of the reasons I have doubts over him. In addition to generally him not seeming that impressive tactically.
 
Mainoldo said:
With no English bias. Do you believe that Maguire would actually be the number 1 and not Lindelof? Considering the later is better on the ball and actually is a better reader or the game?
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The emphasis would be to press high and win the ball back quickly hence enforcing the press. Lindelof is too passive in that regard from the evidence at hand IMO.
 
Mainoldo said:
I don’t want to make this an Ole thing. But If he was replicating the same why did he buy AWB and Maguire. Just a thought as they don’t actually progress his tactics that he is trying to replicate? Do you reckon he had a change of heart from last summer to now?
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I was probably the biggest critic of the signings made last summer and my post history will attest to that. And the reason it didn't make sense to me was because I believed Solskjaer wanted to adopt a proactive approach which I still believe he does.

I do think he got it wrong in recruiting both AWB and Maguire for differing reasons but come the end of the league season he finished as high as he possibly could considering the circumstances. No Pogba and Fernandes for half the season either and he still finished 3rd. But Solskjaer has a kid (Ethan Laird) at his disposal who could develop into a very good RB and may give him a viable alternative option to the reactive AWB. But it remains to be seen if Laird can make the step up.

And this isn't aimed at you per say Mainoldo, but for me we need to see Solskjaer with a fully functioning team for a period of time before we can make any assertions regarding his long-term suitability for the role. The only blemish on his CV is his short stint at Cardiff in a job that I feel he was doomed to fail in before he even got started. So it would be naive of me to write him off, but do understand that some people will have doubts about him in the long run.

Solskjaer inherited a team that had been indoctrinated into playing a very reactive style for several years post Fergie. He didn't have the luxury of a Rangnick or Eberl laying the ground work for him either like Nagelsmann or Rose have. I'm not saying Solskjaer is better or worse than the aforementioned but rather that he was dealt a worse hand as far as expectations and team structure go. And I'm saying this as someone who watches Gladbach and RBL regularly due to being a big admirer of both Rose and Nagelsmann.
 
Adnan said:
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Solskjaer inherited a team that had been indoctrinated into playing a very reactive style for several years post Fergie. He didn't have the luxury of a Rangnick or Eberl laying the ground work for him either like Nagelsmann or Rose have. I'm not saying Solskjaer is better or worse than the aforementioned but rather that he was dealt a worse hand as far as expectations and team structure go. And I'm saying this as someone who watches Gladbach and RBL regularly due to being a big admirer of both Rose and Nagelsmann.
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Exactly. A lot of those players are still suffering PTSD from what's gone on before. And they're confidence seems very fragile, which is why I can never understand why Ole tinkers with the lineup when we finally get some momentum.

Edit: I know alot of the players since then have moved on, but Van Gaal's tactics in particular I think really f***ed with a lot of players heads.
 
Adnan said:
I was probably the biggest critic of the signings made last summer and my post history will attest to that. And the reason it didn't make sense to me was because I believed Solskjaer wanted to adopt a proactive approach which I still believe he does.

I do think he got it wrong in recruiting both AWB and Maguire for differing reasons but come the end of the league season he finished as high as he possibly could considering the circumstances. No Pogba and Fernandes for half the season either and he still finished 3rd. But Solskjaer has a kid (Ethan Laird) at his disposal who could develop into a very good RB and may give him a viable alternative option to the reactive AWB. But it remains to be seen if Laird can make the step up.

And this isn't aimed at you per say Mainoldo, but for me we need to see Solskjaer with a fully functioning team for a period of time before we can make any assertions regarding his long-term suitability for the role. The only blemish on his CV is his short stint at Cardiff in a job that I feel he was doomed to fail in before he even got started. So it would be naive of me to write him off, but do understand that some people will have doubts about him in the long run.

Solskjaer inherited a team that had been indoctrinated into playing a very reactive style for several years post Fergie. He didn't have the luxury of a Rangnick or Eberl laying the ground work for him either like Nagelsmann or Rose have. I'm not saying Solskjaer is better or worse than the aforementioned but rather that he was dealt a worse hand as far as expectations and team structure go. And I'm saying this as someone who watches Gladbach and RBL regularly due to being a big admirer of both Rose and Nagelsmann.
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Fair enough but I still think the club F’d up by not getting an upgrade on LVG. He actually set the president which would have been very productive today. We had a philosophy and system which basically is used by the best sides today they only thing which let us down was recruitment and a dated manager. But the ideas were there.
 
Adnan said:
Ole is trying to replicate the same and I've even touched upon his tactics at Molde in other threads where he played a very agressive high press with success. So it would be sensible for us United fans to be patient and wait and see how things develop.
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Is Ole trying to replicate more modern tactics or trying to recapture how SAF and his staff played a decade ago?
 
The whole judge a manager by trophies argument is so flawed. If you can use it objectively then yes fair enough. But simply saying a manager is not good enough or failed at a club because he didn't win a trophy is just stupid. Most posters would agree Pochettino did a fantastic job at Spurs, he didn't win a trophy but I wouldn't call his time there a failure because of that. He could have probably concentrated on the Leage Cup one year and had a better chance of winning it but it may have risked their top 4 position. Tottenham were never a team that were competing for trophies before he took over and by the end of his time there, they were in finals and considered one of the top teams in England. He was held back by the stadium draining funds out of the club, and some of the players losing form an motivation.
 
Jericho said:
Exactly. A lot of those players are still suffering PTSD from what's gone on before. And they're confidence seems very fragile, which is why I can never understand why Ole tinkers with the lineup when we finally get some momentum.

Edit: I know alot of the players since then have moved on, but Van Gaal's tactics in particular I think really f***ed with a lot of players heads.
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Maybe they need a safe space?
 
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